Watched the video on Rune Knight recently and heard something that got my head going. Also thought a Kobold suddenly becoming huge was a funny thought, but what if someone tried to cast Enlarge/Reduce on you and turn you gargantuan. Would You be able to make this ~3' tall kobold, or even goblin, suddenly the size of the ancient Tarrasque?
I hope to see an official statement about the Giant's Might/Enlarge combo, because it'll depend on whether the Enlarge effect is applied before or after Giant's Might. As for making someone the size of the Tarrasque, keep in mind that "Gargantuan" is defined as taking up a space of 20' x 20' "or more". The Tarrasque definitely falls into that "or more" part. :) I'm guessing if you are able to grow to size Gargantuan, you'd be at the lower limit of taking up a 20' x 20' space.
It seems safe to assume a lvl 3 deurgar rune knight could use giants might to become large and then cast enlarge reduce, but thats when a discrepancy comes into play with enlarge reduce. you can definitely use it, but the spell says " all dimensions double and weight increases times 8" but it also says "a creature increases 1 size category." a medium and small creature takes up a 5x5 space, large is a 10x10, huge is 15x15, and gargantuan is 20x20 and up. so if you were already large, then doubled your dimensions youd be gargantuan, where as if you were large and increase a size category you only become huge, at 15x15. either way your a true giant at lvl 3, for a minute anyways.
I hope to see an official statement about the Giant's Might/Enlarge combo, because it'll depend on whether the Enlarge effect is applied before or after Giant's Might. As for making someone the size of the Tarrasque, keep in mind that "Gargantuan" is defined as taking up a space of 20' x 20' "or more". The Tarrasque definitely falls into that "or more" part. :) I'm guessing if you are able to grow to size Gargantuan, you'd be at the lower limit of taking up a 20' x 20' space.
The effect that was used first is applied before, so as long as Enlarge/Reduce was cast on the character while Giant's Might made them huge, you can definitely become Gargantuan, RAW.
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You can actually get EVEN BIGGER- eventually, Rune Knight takes you straight to huge, and our hypothetical duergar can then enlarge to gargantuan, before drinking a potion of growth. The potion, although it works just like enlarge/reduce, is technically a separate effect and therefore stacks.
In summary:
Giant's Might to Huge-> Enlarge reduce (from race or as a spell) to Gargantuan-> Potion of growth to Bigger, somehow.
Naturally, the only effect here is 1d10 and 2d4 extra damage, enhanced grappling, and an inability to be in most dungeons.
This is a major issue I have with 5e rules regarding size. NPCs get increased range and damage and HD are based on size. But a PC becoming Gargantuan Plus is just, a bit more damage and slightly better grappling. Just feels like for such an investment and such a huge change in size, more should happen
This is a major issue I have with 5e rules regarding size. NPCs get increased range and damage and HD are based on size. But a PC becoming Gargantuan Plus is just, a bit more damage and slightly better grappling. Just feels like for such an investment and such a huge change in size, more should happen
Yeah, it's more for the hilarity of the thing. I'm not too bothered by it. Yeah, it would be great to get gobs of damage for being bigger and bigger. But this is all accessible at such early levels that there's no way they could make it that easy to do more damage. I prefer it this way, rather than 5e's typical answer (ie: cool abilities only available WELL after you actually need them)
I've had great fun for an entire campaign with my gnome Rune Knight. For the finale I drank my Potion of Growth while embiggened. It was fun!
Definitely would be nice if PC damage and reach scaled a bit better with size, but I think they erred on the side of caution in fear of shenanigans just like this. As it is, a size increase mainly offers the ability to cover more of the battlefield, which can still be very useful in some cases.
Also want to point out that Huge => 'Tarrasque' is not one increase in size. Gargantuan is a vague catch-all category for everything larger than Huge. A gargantuan PC would fill a 16' cube while the Tarrasque is 50' tall and 70' long. You'd need two more 'steps' to get that big.
I hope to see an official statement about the Giant's Might/Enlarge combo, because it'll depend on whether the Enlarge effect is applied before or after Giant's Might.
The idea that two game features may or may not stack based on the order in which you apply them has never sat well with me.
Here we go... Go 5 levels of paladin for summon steed so you can get giant warhorse. You are medium as a Duergar, it is large. Next, Rune knight 3 levels. According to the find steed rules..."While mounted on your steed, you can make any attack that targets yourself also target the steed. Rune knight= you large, horse huge. Use Duergar racial ability enlarge reduce so you=gargantuan, horse, horse= gargantuan++. use cape of enlargement for another enlargement. you=gargantuan +, horse= Gargantuan+++. Then drink potion of enlargement... crazy. You= gargantuan+++++ Horse= gargantuan+++++++++. if gargantuan is 20x 20,your taking up around 60x60, horse about 100x 100. BE READY TO COVER THE BATTLEFEILD, MY STEED. The ridiculousness of this is insane, especially because it is from level 8 you can do this in phalandin; the shattered obelisk, because you can get cape of enlargement there :) I just made it so the map can't hold me. My dm is gonna kill me when I use this. Also, because of enlarge, for each size above yours, extra D4 DAMAGE BABY. that's +8d4 damage for you, and if your duel wielding +16d4 dmg, but with extra attack +24d4 damage. Get casted haste +40d4 dmg, for an average of 120 extra damage at level 8. What about the horse? you ask, not knowing. Warhorses deal 4d6 dmg+ 16. (Ok, hooves attack does 2d6+8, but if they sucessfuly shove an enemy prone with that first attack[Which you know their doing cause they are gargantuan+++++++++]) so that's 4 attacks, 8 attacks with haste, +12d4 per attack that is 94d4 extra damage, and the enemy is knocked prone. Avg of 282 damage, so ride on, horseman of absolute distruction.
Here we go... Go 5 levels of paladin for summon steed so you can get giant warhorse. You are medium as a Duergar, it is large. Next, Rune knight 3 levels. According to the find steed rules..."While mounted on your steed, you can make any attack that targets yourself also target the steed. Rune knight= you large, horse huge. Use Duergar racial ability enlarge reduce so you=gargantuan, horse, horse= gargantuan++. use cape of enlargement for another enlargement. you=gargantuan +, horse= Gargantuan+++. Then drink potion of enlargement... crazy. You= gargantuan+++++ Horse= gargantuan+++++++++. if gargantuan is 20x 20,your taking up around 60x60, horse about 100x 100. BE READY TO COVER THE BATTLEFEILD, MY STEED. The ridiculousness of this is insane, especially because it is from level 8 you can do this in phalandin; the shattered obelisk, because you can get cape of enlargement there :) I just made it so the map can't hold me. My dm is gonna kill me when I use this. Also, because of enlarge, for each size above yours, extra D4 DAMAGE BABY. that's +8d4 damage for you, and if your duel wielding +16d4 dmg, but with extra attack +24d4 damage. Get casted haste +40d4 dmg, for an average of 120 extra damage at level 8. What about the horse? you ask, not knowing. Warhorses deal 4d6 dmg+ 16. (Ok, hooves attack does 2d6+8, but if they sucessfuly shove an enemy prone with that first attack[Which you know their doing cause they are gargantuan+++++++++]) so that's 4 attacks, 8 attacks with haste, +12d4 per attack that is 94d4 extra damage, and the enemy is knocked prone. Avg of 282 damage, so ride on, horseman of absolute distruction.
There are a few issues with this plan:
1) Giants Might is not a spell, so its effect won't transfer to your mount created by Find Steed
2) The spell Enlarge/Reduce only increases your size category by one. So you go from Large to Huge, not Large to Gargantuan. This does effect your mount too since you cast a spell so they are now Huge.
3) Using Cape of Enlargement is not casting a spell, so this does not effect your mount. You are Gargantuan and your mount is Huge.
5) Drinking a potion is not casting a spell, so the effect from the Potion of Growth does not transfer to you mount. Also, it is already benefiting from the Enlarge effect of Enlarge/Reduce.
7) Increasing in size category does not intrinsically increase your damage. The +1d4 is an effect of the Enlarge/Reduce spell. Note that Giant's Might gives a different bonus to damage that is independent of the change in size, and the Cape of Enlargement adds your proficiency bonus to weapon and unarmed strike damage rolls.
8) If you use the action granted by Haste to take the Attack Action you can only make one attack.
9) The average roll of a 1d4 is 2.5. So the expected damage from 40d4 is 100.
11) The saving throw against a Warhorse's Trampling Charge is not affected by its change in size.
12) Again, when using the action granted by Haste to take the Attack Action you can make only one attack.
Also, at this point I am uncertain what exactly you are talking about. What is it that you think is making the 4 attacks? Is it the mount or your character? Because neither is capable of making 4 attacks with just their action.
The Tarrasque, as well as Tiamat, have a special size clarification on their stat blocks. Where the size of the creature appears it says: Gargantuan (titan). This is to indicate that they are a size category above Gargantuan.
The Tarrasque, as well as Tiamat, have a special size clarification on their stat blocks. Where the size of the creature appears it says: Gargantuan (titan). This is to indicate that they are a size category above Gargantuan.
The Tarrasque stat block says "Gargantuan monstrosity (titan)". Maybe the "(titan)" is expanding upon the Tarrasque's size category of Gargantuan. But if so what mechanical significance this has is not explained.
Also considering the very next entry in the Monsters Manual for Thri-kreen has the text "Medium humanoid (thri-kreen)" I would imagine the "(titan)" in the Tarrasque's stat block is expanding the creature type, not the size category.
The Tarrasque, as well as Tiamat, have a special size clarification on their stat blocks. Where the size of the creature appears it says: Gargantuan (titan). This is to indicate that they are a size category above Gargantuan.
The Tarrasque stat block says "Gargantuan monstrosity (titan)". Maybe the "(titan)" is expanding upon the Tarrasque's size category of Gargantuan. But if so what mechanical significance this has is not explained.
Also considering the very next entry in the Monsters Manual for Thri-kreen has the text "Medium humanoid (thri-kreen)" I would imagine the "(titan)" in the Tarrasque's stat block is expanding the creature type, not the size category.
And, just to reaffirm your statement, the Atropals and Empyreans have this tag, and they're not Gargantuan, so it's not a special size category. It's just a lore tag explaining that they were created by the gods.
This makes me wonder if you cast enlarge/reduce to enlarge a creature that is already gargantuan, they cannot go up an additional size class as they are already the largest size the game acknowledges. But would they still get the benefits bestowed by the spell?
I don't see why not. Gargantuan encompasses anything larger than Huge. So a Gargantuan creature can still double is length, width, and height and its weapons would grow with them. They just would remain in the Gargantuan size category. But none of the effects of Enlarge/Reduce are tied to the change in Size Category. The advantage on Strength Checks and Saves is just an effect of the spell and the increase in damage is tied to the weapons growth.
7) Increasing in size category does not intrinsically increase your damage. The +1d4 is an effect of the Enlarge/Reduce spell. Note that Giant's Might gives a different bonus to damage that is independent of the change in size, and the Cape of Enlargement does not change your damage at all.
Watched the video on Rune Knight recently and heard something that got my head going. Also thought a Kobold suddenly becoming huge was a funny thought, but what if someone tried to cast Enlarge/Reduce on you and turn you gargantuan. Would You be able to make this ~3' tall kobold, or even goblin, suddenly the size of the ancient Tarrasque?
I hope to see an official statement about the Giant's Might/Enlarge combo, because it'll depend on whether the Enlarge effect is applied before or after Giant's Might. As for making someone the size of the Tarrasque, keep in mind that "Gargantuan" is defined as taking up a space of 20' x 20' "or more". The Tarrasque definitely falls into that "or more" part. :) I'm guessing if you are able to grow to size Gargantuan, you'd be at the lower limit of taking up a 20' x 20' space.
It seems safe to assume a lvl 3 deurgar rune knight could use giants might to become large and then cast enlarge reduce, but thats when a discrepancy comes into play with enlarge reduce. you can definitely use it, but the spell says " all dimensions double and weight increases times 8" but it also says "a creature increases 1 size category." a medium and small creature takes up a 5x5 space, large is a 10x10, huge is 15x15, and gargantuan is 20x20 and up. so if you were already large, then doubled your dimensions youd be gargantuan, where as if you were large and increase a size category you only become huge, at 15x15. either way your a true giant at lvl 3, for a minute anyways.
The effect that was used first is applied before, so as long as Enlarge/Reduce was cast on the character while Giant's Might made them huge, you can definitely become Gargantuan, RAW.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Do you have to still be you? Cast Polymorph into a Tyrannosaurus. Then have someone cast Enlarge / Reduce on you. You are now Gargantuan and 30x30.
You can actually get EVEN BIGGER- eventually, Rune Knight takes you straight to huge, and our hypothetical duergar can then enlarge to gargantuan, before drinking a potion of growth. The potion, although it works just like enlarge/reduce, is technically a separate effect and therefore stacks.
In summary:
Giant's Might to Huge-> Enlarge reduce (from race or as a spell) to Gargantuan-> Potion of growth to Bigger, somehow.
Naturally, the only effect here is 1d10 and 2d4 extra damage, enhanced grappling, and an inability to be in most dungeons.
I just love envisioning a 30ft tall humanoid grappling a dragon and pinning it to the ground so that all his buddies can auto-crit it till it dies.
This is a major issue I have with 5e rules regarding size. NPCs get increased range and damage and HD are based on size. But a PC becoming Gargantuan Plus is just, a bit more damage and slightly better grappling. Just feels like for such an investment and such a huge change in size, more should happen
Yeah, it's more for the hilarity of the thing. I'm not too bothered by it. Yeah, it would be great to get gobs of damage for being bigger and bigger. But this is all accessible at such early levels that there's no way they could make it that easy to do more damage. I prefer it this way, rather than 5e's typical answer (ie: cool abilities only available WELL after you actually need them)
I've had great fun for an entire campaign with my gnome Rune Knight. For the finale I drank my Potion of Growth while embiggened. It was fun!
Definitely would be nice if PC damage and reach scaled a bit better with size, but I think they erred on the side of caution in fear of shenanigans just like this. As it is, a size increase mainly offers the ability to cover more of the battlefield, which can still be very useful in some cases.
Also want to point out that Huge => 'Tarrasque' is not one increase in size. Gargantuan is a vague catch-all category for everything larger than Huge. A gargantuan PC would fill a 16' cube while the Tarrasque is 50' tall and 70' long. You'd need two more 'steps' to get that big.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Grappled doesn't give auto-crit or even advantage. But you may still envision it.
The idea that two game features may or may not stack based on the order in which you apply them has never sat well with me.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Here we go... Go 5 levels of paladin for summon steed so you can get giant warhorse. You are medium as a Duergar, it is large. Next, Rune knight 3 levels. According to the find steed rules..."While mounted on your steed, you can make any attack that targets yourself also target the steed. Rune knight= you large, horse huge. Use Duergar racial ability enlarge reduce so you=gargantuan, horse, horse= gargantuan++. use cape of enlargement for another enlargement. you=gargantuan +, horse= Gargantuan+++. Then drink potion of enlargement... crazy. You= gargantuan+++++ Horse= gargantuan+++++++++. if gargantuan is 20x 20,your taking up around 60x60, horse about 100x 100. BE READY TO COVER THE BATTLEFEILD, MY STEED. The ridiculousness of this is insane, especially because it is from level 8 you can do this in phalandin; the shattered obelisk, because you can get cape of enlargement there :) I just made it so the map can't hold me. My dm is gonna kill me when I use this. Also, because of enlarge, for each size above yours, extra D4 DAMAGE BABY. that's +8d4 damage for you, and if your duel wielding +16d4 dmg, but with extra attack +24d4 damage. Get casted haste +40d4 dmg, for an average of 120 extra damage at level 8. What about the horse? you ask, not knowing. Warhorses deal 4d6 dmg+ 16. (Ok, hooves attack does 2d6+8, but if they sucessfuly shove an enemy prone with that first attack[Which you know their doing cause they are gargantuan+++++++++]) so that's 4 attacks, 8 attacks with haste, +12d4 per attack that is 94d4 extra damage, and the enemy is knocked prone. Avg of 282 damage, so ride on, horseman of absolute distruction.
There are a few issues with this plan:
1) Giants Might is not a spell, so its effect won't transfer to your mount created by Find Steed
2) The spell Enlarge/Reduce only increases your size category by one. So you go from Large to Huge, not Large to Gargantuan. This does effect your mount too since you cast a spell so they are now Huge.
3) Using Cape of Enlargement is not casting a spell, so this does not effect your mount. You are Gargantuan and your mount is Huge.
4) A Potion of Growth produces the Enlarge effect of the spell Enlarge/Reduce. You are already benefiting from this effect and effects with the same name do not stack: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#CombiningMagicalEffects
5) Drinking a potion is not casting a spell, so the effect from the Potion of Growth does not transfer to you mount. Also, it is already benefiting from the Enlarge effect of Enlarge/Reduce.
6) Gargantuan is the largest size category and a Gargantuan creature generally occupies a 20ft by 20ft square: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#CreatureSize
7) Increasing in size category does not intrinsically increase your damage. The +1d4 is an effect of the Enlarge/Reduce spell. Note that Giant's Might gives a different bonus to damage that is independent of the change in size, and the Cape of Enlargement adds your proficiency bonus to weapon and unarmed strike damage rolls.
8) If you use the action granted by Haste to take the Attack Action you can only make one attack.
9) The average roll of a 1d4 is 2.5. So the expected damage from 40d4 is 100.
10) While controlling a mount their initiative changes to match yours and they can only take the Dash, Disengage, or Dodge actions: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#ControllingaMount
11) The saving throw against a Warhorse's Trampling Charge is not affected by its change in size.
12) Again, when using the action granted by Haste to take the Attack Action you can make only one attack.
Also, at this point I am uncertain what exactly you are talking about. What is it that you think is making the 4 attacks? Is it the mount or your character? Because neither is capable of making 4 attacks with just their action.
The Tarrasque, as well as Tiamat, have a special size clarification on their stat blocks. Where the size of the creature appears it says: Gargantuan (titan). This is to indicate that they are a size category above Gargantuan.
The Tarrasque stat block says "Gargantuan monstrosity (titan)". Maybe the "(titan)" is expanding upon the Tarrasque's size category of Gargantuan. But if so what mechanical significance this has is not explained.
Also considering the very next entry in the Monsters Manual for Thri-kreen has the text "Medium humanoid (thri-kreen)" I would imagine the "(titan)" in the Tarrasque's stat block is expanding the creature type, not the size category.
The "titan" tag refers to special class of quasi-deities that were created or birthed by the gods. The kraken, empyrean, astral dreadnought and atropal monsters also has that tag.
And, just to reaffirm your statement, the Atropals and Empyreans have this tag, and they're not Gargantuan, so it's not a special size category. It's just a lore tag explaining that they were created by the gods.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
This makes me wonder if you cast enlarge/reduce to enlarge a creature that is already gargantuan, they cannot go up an additional size class as they are already the largest size the game acknowledges. But would they still get the benefits bestowed by the spell?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I don't see why not. Gargantuan encompasses anything larger than Huge. So a Gargantuan creature can still double is length, width, and height and its weapons would grow with them. They just would remain in the Gargantuan size category. But none of the effects of Enlarge/Reduce are tied to the change in Size Category. The advantage on Strength Checks and Saves is just an effect of the spell and the increase in damage is tied to the weapons growth.
Cape of Enlargement