I’m trying to see the benefit of the Soulknife Teleport ability... 10x your die roll is so random and unreliable. You roll a 1, you’ve only moved 10’... yawn. As a rogue, your LEVEL TWO class bonus action of Dash lets you move double your movement speed... that’s 60’ (assuming base movement of 30’). At L9 when you get the ability to teleport, your psi-die is a d8. So you can choose 75% of the time wasting your bonus action by choosing to teleport less than or equal to your Dash, or possibly 25% moving 20’ further than max Dash (again assuming 30’ base movement). The randomness just makes it unreliable when compared to the Dash that is guaranteed to take you exactly where you want 100% of the time.
Sure, you could try to use teleport to try to scale a wall, but if you roll bad, you still go no where. instead use your movement and an acrobatics check to get you up where you need to be. The one guaranteed use i came up for the teleport is escaping a grapple situation. Since you are still able to make normal attack and bonus actions while grappled, this is a guaranteed way to get out of that situation without having to roll a contested check against the opponent.
Am i missing something above and beyond the ho-hum perceived “coolness” factor? I want to believe I’m missing something, but for the life of me, i can’t figure out what. It just seems like a horribly implemented idea. Thanks for your input on this!
I’m trying to see the benefit of the Soulknife Teleport ability... 10x your die roll is so random and unreliable. You roll a 1, you’ve only moved 10’... yawn. As a rogue, your LEVEL TWO class bonus action of Dash lets you move double your movement speed... that’s 60’ (assuming base movement of 30’). At L9 when you get the ability to teleport, your psi-die is a d8. So you can choose 75% of the time wasting your bonus action by choosing to teleport less than or equal to your Dash, or possibly 25% moving 20’ further than max Dash (again assuming 30’ base movement). The randomness just makes it unreliable when compared to the Dash that is guaranteed to take you exactly where you want 100% of the time.
Sure, you could try to use teleport to try to scale a wall, but if you roll bad, you still go no where. instead use your movement and an acrobatics check to get you up where you need to be. The one guaranteed use i came up for the teleport is escaping a grapple situation. Since you are still able to make normal attack and bonus actions while grappled, this is a guaranteed way to get out of that situation without having to roll a contested check against the opponent.
Am i missing something above and beyond the ho-hum perceived “coolness” factor? I want to believe I’m missing something, but for the life of me, i can’t figure out what. It just seems like a horribly implemented idea. Thanks for your input on this!
Your maths is off - remember, the Rogue can still move normally after teleporting. Assuming 30 ft. movement speed that means between 40 ft. to 110 ft. of movement, with the average being better than a dash.
I believe the real use of this ability isn't to replace dash, but to replace disengage. Now, if an enemy gets close you can attack and then use your BA and movement to get a SIGNIFICANT distance away (min 40 ft, as said earlier) rather than disengaging and moving 30 ft, which will mostly just mean they chase you and hit you again next turn.
I’m trying to see the benefit of the Soulknife Teleport ability... 10x your die roll is so random and unreliable. You roll a 1, you’ve only moved 10’... yawn. As a rogue, your LEVEL TWO class bonus action of Dash lets you move double your movement speed... that’s 60’ (assuming base movement of 30’). At L9 when you get the ability to teleport, your psi-die is a d8. So you can choose 75% of the time wasting your bonus action by choosing to teleport less than or equal to your Dash, or possibly 25% moving 20’ further than max Dash (again assuming 30’ base movement). The randomness just makes it unreliable when compared to the Dash that is guaranteed to take you exactly where you want 100% of the time.
Sure, you could try to use teleport to try to scale a wall, but if you roll bad, you still go no where. instead use your movement and an acrobatics check to get you up where you need to be. The one guaranteed use i came up for the teleport is escaping a grapple situation. Since you are still able to make normal attack and bonus actions while grappled, this is a guaranteed way to get out of that situation without having to roll a contested check against the opponent.
Am i missing something above and beyond the ho-hum perceived “coolness” factor? I want to believe I’m missing something, but for the life of me, i can’t figure out what. It just seems like a horribly implemented idea. Thanks for your input on this!
It may be fairly weak, but it is only part of the 9th level sub-class feature. Not ever feature of every sub-class has the "wow" factor.
The distance is random, but it averages higher than a dash (45>30), ignores terrain and obstacles, and is a free disengage. 75% of the time it will be better than dash in every way, and the rest of the time it still has benefits dash doesn't have.
I think your poor assessment is based on a misunderstanding of dash rules.
1) The dash action allows the character to move again giving it an additional 30' of movement. So base 30' + 30' = 60' total.
2) The teleport ability gives d8x10' = 10' to 80' additional movement for the same cost of a bonus action and the character can still move 30'.
So psychic blades teleportation gives a total movement of 30' + 10'-80' - which most of the time will be greater than the 30'+30' provided by bonus action dash.
In addition, teleporting doesn't trigger opportunity attacks, ignores difficult terrain, and can cross obstacles, scale walls or accomplish any number of things that dashing can not.
Quote from David42>>In addition, teleporting doesn't trigger opportunity attacks, ignores difficult terrain, and can cross obstacles, scale walls or accomplish any number of things that dashing can not.
This. Teleportation can get you out of bring grappled or restrained. And ignores OA, you can’t disengage and dash both on your bonus action. But this kind of does. I was going to say you could use it to get past a wall of force, but I think the flavor text of throwing a dagger at the square would mean The wall would block the dagger, so that wouldn’t actually work.
>>Quote from David42>>In addition, teleporting doesn't trigger opportunity attacks, ignores difficult terrain, and can cross obstacles, scale walls or accomplish any number of things that dashing can not.
This. Teleportation can get you out of bring grappled or restrained. And ignores OA, you can’t disengage and dash both on your bonus action. But this kind of does. I was going to say you could use it to get past a wall of force, but I think the flavor text of throwing a dagger at the square would mean The wall would block the dagger, so that wouldn’t actually work.
Yes, i mentioned grappling. Thanks for reiterating what i stated initially though!
Here’s what Dash says from this site: ”Dash When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash.“
So i see what you mean now that it would (at L9) be 75% more likely to get you at least equal to, if not further. You’re right, my initial understanding of Dash was you could get normal movement, and then an additional double movement (30 + 60), which is incorrect.
Regarding terrain, meh i guess. High dex characters can typically make their acrobatics check for this (which i touched on when i mentioned scaling a wall), and if they’re proficient its even easier. I just don’t see anyone having a low dex rogue, aside from an RP standpoint...which would just drive your party nuts.
Alternative to Disengage, that definitely seems to be where this ability shines, especially if you already moved for your turn. I hadn’t considered disengage initially. So this makes more sense as a benefit. This is why i posted here, i knew i was missing something. Alternative to disengaging and breaking grapple situations. Thanks everyone!
Regarding terrain, meh i guess. High dex characters can typically make their acrobatics check for this (which i touched on when i mentioned scaling a wall), and if they’re proficient its even easier. I just don’t see anyone having a low dex rogue, aside from an RP standpoint...which would just drive your party nuts.
Climbing is str athletics, not dex acrobatics per RAW. And acrobatics doesn't usually overcome difficult terrain. Acrobatics is for maintaining balance which could apply to certain types of difficult terrain (like ice), but when it comes to using your muscles to move (swim, climb, jump) these are athletics.
Being able to teleport to avoid climbing is really helpful for a dex based character.
I'd be willing to houserule this because it's annoying. The flavor is awesome - you throw your soulknife and teleport to it. But somehow the instability of your psionic power dictates how far you can throw it? It just really feels like they shoehorned in the psionic die roll because they felt they had to, but it feels more like wild magic than psionics. Since rogue is such a tactical class that really cares about positioning, making this feature random really limits its utility.
If I DM for a Soulknife, I might offer this: You can teleport up to [5 x max value of your psionic die] feet, when you do so you roll your psionic die and take that much force damage.
Alternatively, you could limit the minimum distance to 10 x INT mod or something. I don't know. I get that it is done for balance but it just really kills the cool factor of the ability for me. Maybe you could trade some teleport reliability for the questionably balanced "only expend the die on a success" clauses in Knack and Homing Strikes.
Regarding terrain, meh i guess. High dex characters can typically make their acrobatics check for this (which i touched on when i mentioned scaling a wall), and if they’re proficient its even easier. I just don’t see anyone having a low dex rogue, aside from an RP standpoint...which would just drive your party nuts.
Climbing is str athletics, not dex acrobatics per RAW. And acrobatics doesn't usually overcome difficult terrain. Acrobatics is for maintaining balance which could apply to certain types of difficult terrain (like ice), but when it comes to using your muscles to move (swim, climb, jump) these are athletics.
Being able to teleport to avoid climbing is really helpful for a dex based character.
I agree with this, but it is not a very reliable way to reach the top of a 50' cliff. The lack of reliability is my one beef with this ability. 10 to 80 feet is a very broad range of variance.
Regarding terrain, meh i guess. High dex characters can typically make their acrobatics check for this (which i touched on when i mentioned scaling a wall), and if they’re proficient its even easier. I just don’t see anyone having a low dex rogue, aside from an RP standpoint...which would just drive your party nuts.
Climbing is str athletics, not dex acrobatics per RAW. And acrobatics doesn't usually overcome difficult terrain. Acrobatics is for maintaining balance which could apply to certain types of difficult terrain (like ice), but when it comes to using your muscles to move (swim, climb, jump) these are athletics.
Being able to teleport to avoid climbing is really helpful for a dex based character.
I agree with this, but it is not a very reliable way to reach the top of a 50' cliff. The lack of reliability is my one beef with this ability. 10 to 80 feet is a very broad range of variance.
I agree with your comments on reliability. A shadow monk can teleport 60' an unlimited number of times as a bonus action at level 6 with the constraint that they have to start and end in dim light or darkness.
It would have been nice if the soul knife ability had also been a fixed distance so it could be used more reliably. It is also limited in uses/day by the number of dice available.
Having played the Soulknife a bit, my group addressed this by just making the teleport distance equal to the player’s proficiency bonus. That makes it constant/predictable, and it approximates the psychic energy dice levels anyway (at level 17, your die jumps to a d12, so average 6.5; proficiency bonus at that level is +6, close enough.)
Since the class already increments your number of dice on proficiency bonus, it’s a familiar mechanic, and trading away the potential of massive 120’ jump is worth never spending a d12 die to find out you only moved 10 feet.
One important feature that's getting overlooked- moving through small spaces. Need to evac, but all that's available is an arrow slit? Thwip, and you're outside and running. Sewer grates, jail cells, etc. There's little that can hold you in place.
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I’m trying to see the benefit of the Soulknife Teleport ability... 10x your die roll is so random and unreliable. You roll a 1, you’ve only moved 10’... yawn. As a rogue, your LEVEL TWO class bonus action of Dash lets you move double your movement speed... that’s 60’ (assuming base movement of 30’). At L9 when you get the ability to teleport, your psi-die is a d8. So you can choose 75% of the time wasting your bonus action by choosing to teleport less than or equal to your Dash, or possibly 25% moving 20’ further than max Dash (again assuming 30’ base movement). The randomness just makes it unreliable when compared to the Dash that is guaranteed to take you exactly where you want 100% of the time.
Sure, you could try to use teleport to try to scale a wall, but if you roll bad, you still go no where. instead use your movement and an acrobatics check to get you up where you need to be. The one guaranteed use i came up for the teleport is escaping a grapple situation. Since you are still able to make normal attack and bonus actions while grappled, this is a guaranteed way to get out of that situation without having to roll a contested check against the opponent.
Am i missing something above and beyond the ho-hum perceived “coolness” factor? I want to believe I’m missing something, but for the life of me, i can’t figure out what. It just seems like a horribly implemented idea. Thanks for your input on this!
Your maths is off - remember, the Rogue can still move normally after teleporting. Assuming 30 ft. movement speed that means between 40 ft. to 110 ft. of movement, with the average being better than a dash.
I believe the real use of this ability isn't to replace dash, but to replace disengage. Now, if an enemy gets close you can attack and then use your BA and movement to get a SIGNIFICANT distance away (min 40 ft, as said earlier) rather than disengaging and moving 30 ft, which will mostly just mean they chase you and hit you again next turn.
It may be fairly weak, but it is only part of the 9th level sub-class feature. Not ever feature of every sub-class has the "wow" factor.
The distance is random, but it averages higher than a dash (45>30), ignores terrain and obstacles, and is a free disengage. 75% of the time it will be better than dash in every way, and the rest of the time it still has benefits dash doesn't have.
I think your poor assessment is based on a misunderstanding of dash rules.
Two things ...
1) The dash action allows the character to move again giving it an additional 30' of movement. So base 30' + 30' = 60' total.
2) The teleport ability gives d8x10' = 10' to 80' additional movement for the same cost of a bonus action and the character can still move 30'.
So psychic blades teleportation gives a total movement of 30' + 10'-80' - which most of the time will be greater than the 30'+30' provided by bonus action dash.
In addition, teleporting doesn't trigger opportunity attacks, ignores difficult terrain, and can cross obstacles, scale walls or accomplish any number of things that dashing can not.
Basically, it good for running away from people when you have one hit point and can't afford to take the Disengage action.
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This. Teleportation can get you out of bring grappled or restrained. And ignores OA, you can’t disengage and dash both on your bonus action. But this kind of does.
I was going to say you could use it to get past a wall of force, but I think the flavor text of throwing a dagger at the square would mean The wall would block the dagger, so that wouldn’t actually work.
This. Teleportation can get you out of bring grappled or restrained. And ignores OA, you can’t disengage and dash both on your bonus action. But this kind of does.
I was going to say you could use it to get past a wall of force, but I think the flavor text of throwing a dagger at the square would mean The wall would block the dagger, so that wouldn’t actually work.
Yes, i mentioned grappling. Thanks for reiterating what i stated initially though!
Here’s what Dash says from this site:
”Dash When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash.“
So i see what you mean now that it would (at L9) be 75% more likely to get you at least equal to, if not further. You’re right, my initial understanding of Dash was you could get normal movement, and then an additional double movement (30 + 60), which is incorrect.
Regarding terrain, meh i guess. High dex characters can typically make their acrobatics check for this (which i touched on when i mentioned scaling a wall), and if they’re proficient its even easier. I just don’t see anyone having a low dex rogue, aside from an RP standpoint...which would just drive your party nuts.
Alternative to Disengage, that definitely seems to be where this ability shines, especially if you already moved for your turn. I hadn’t considered disengage initially. So this makes more sense as a benefit. This is why i posted here, i knew i was missing something. Alternative to disengaging and breaking grapple situations. Thanks everyone!
Climbing is str athletics, not dex acrobatics per RAW. And acrobatics doesn't usually overcome difficult terrain. Acrobatics is for maintaining balance which could apply to certain types of difficult terrain (like ice), but when it comes to using your muscles to move (swim, climb, jump) these are athletics.
Being able to teleport to avoid climbing is really helpful for a dex based character.
I'd be willing to houserule this because it's annoying. The flavor is awesome - you throw your soulknife and teleport to it. But somehow the instability of your psionic power dictates how far you can throw it? It just really feels like they shoehorned in the psionic die roll because they felt they had to, but it feels more like wild magic than psionics. Since rogue is such a tactical class that really cares about positioning, making this feature random really limits its utility.
If I DM for a Soulknife, I might offer this: You can teleport up to [5 x max value of your psionic die] feet, when you do so you roll your psionic die and take that much force damage.
Alternatively, you could limit the minimum distance to 10 x INT mod or something. I don't know. I get that it is done for balance but it just really kills the cool factor of the ability for me. Maybe you could trade some teleport reliability for the questionably balanced "only expend the die on a success" clauses in Knack and Homing Strikes.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I agree with this, but it is not a very reliable way to reach the top of a 50' cliff. The lack of reliability is my one beef with this ability. 10 to 80 feet is a very broad range of variance.
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I agree with your comments on reliability. A shadow monk can teleport 60' an unlimited number of times as a bonus action at level 6 with the constraint that they have to start and end in dim light or darkness.
It would have been nice if the soul knife ability had also been a fixed distance so it could be used more reliably. It is also limited in uses/day by the number of dice available.
Having played the Soulknife a bit, my group addressed this by just making the teleport distance equal to the player’s proficiency bonus. That makes it constant/predictable, and it approximates the psychic energy dice levels anyway (at level 17, your die jumps to a d12, so average 6.5; proficiency bonus at that level is +6, close enough.)
Since the class already increments your number of dice on proficiency bonus, it’s a familiar mechanic, and trading away the potential of massive 120’ jump is worth never spending a d12 die to find out you only moved 10 feet.
One important feature that's getting overlooked- moving through small spaces. Need to evac, but all that's available is an arrow slit? Thwip, and you're outside and running. Sewer grates, jail cells, etc. There's little that can hold you in place.