One D&D UA 9/29/22 - Expert Classes

Quote from TaleMasterTOV >>

Having played 3.5 before switching (reluctantly) to 5e, I see these improved grapple rules as a nod towards the 3.5 grapple rules, which were much more complicated but presented enough utility that characters would want to learn them and use them in their encounters. 5e grapple rules really only made themselves useful in situations where the players would want to question an NPC before killing it (at least, in my experience).

 Grappling is a frequent optimizer tactic for battle field control or drag damage through spikegrowth or other location based damage.

Having easier ways out  of grapples helps balance such strategies.  However I am not sure it was a problem because the game had other methods or required a significant investment for players to really take advantage of it.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

And considering how many people are objecting to the grapple rules in 1DD, that should tell you something.

I didn't say that the 1DD grapple rules are good. Just that they're the same as the grapple rules for monsters in 5e. Personally, I've given vampires athletics and let them use grapple as part of their multiattack (and will likely do the same for other grappling monsters if I use them) because I loathe grapple attacks vs AC, but it's clearly the way grappling is supposed to be used for monsters in 5e.

 
Again, no, that’s just the way grappling works for some specific monsters in 5e, for all the rest of them it works exactly the same way it works for PCs.

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from kamchatmonk >>

And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.

 No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.

 Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.

Lifting and Carrying

Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.

Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.

Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.

Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

GRAPPLED [CONDITION]
While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects:
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on
Attack Rolls against any target other than the
grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you,
but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.

 This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place. 

Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional. 

I remain unhappy with the AC target number.  The save to escape it is fine.  At least it takes strength into account.  Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember. 

Quote from Stegodorkus >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from kamchatmonk >>

And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.

 No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.

 Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.

Lifting and Carrying

Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.

Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.

Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.

Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

GRAPPLED [CONDITION]
While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects:
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on
Attack Rolls against any target other than the
grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you,
but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.

 This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place. 

Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional. 

I remain unhappy with the AC target number.  The save to escape it is fine.  At least it takes strength into account.  Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember. 

 True. They should have links to relevant rules or at least a reference to where to find them. Also what’s weird is that grappling a creature brings their speed to 0 even if they could carry or drag you. Monsters weights can vary so I guess they left that up to the DM to decide. Maybe they should change the unarmed strike ability to grab instead of grapple. 
When you hit with an unarmed strike you may grab a creature that is no more than one size larger than you. A grabbed creature cannot move unless it drags or carries you with it. If it can not drag or carry you it is grappled. 
Technically this makes it more complicated because now there is a whole mechanic for grab, but it would describe what is actually happening.

Quote from Stegodorkus >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from kamchatmonk >>

And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.

 No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.

 Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.

Lifting and Carrying

Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.

Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.

Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.

Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

GRAPPLED [CONDITION]
While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects:
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on
Attack Rolls against any target other than the
grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you,
but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.

 This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place. 

Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional. 

I remain unhappy with the AC target number.  The save to escape it is fine.  At least it takes strength into account.  Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember. 

It is not functional, questionably raw and probably not even intended. There is 0 mention of weight issues anywhere in the grapple rules, the slow is supposed to represent that. If they intended to use the carry capacity rules for shoves, grapples etc they would mention it, they likely would not even give you the option to shove creatures one size larger, and weight would be a stat on creatures. The grapple rules drag feature imo is clearly a exception to the carry capacity rules.

The two size limit is how they represent something that is too heavy to move. One size bigger and its not, two sizes bigger and it is.

Quote from Stegodorkus >>

This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place.

 Given that no monster I'm aware of even lists its weight, and we haven't even seen the rules for lifting and dragging in 1DD, I'm confident that weight is not supposed to be a factor.

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

Quote from Stegodorkus >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from kamchatmonk >>

And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.

 No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.

 Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.

Lifting and Carrying

Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.

Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.

Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.

Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

GRAPPLED [CONDITION]
While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects:
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on
Attack Rolls against any target other than the
grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you,
but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.

 This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place. 

Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional. 

I remain unhappy with the AC target number.  The save to escape it is fine.  At least it takes strength into account.  Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember. 

 

It is not functional, questionably raw and probably not even intended. There is 0 mention of weight issues anywhere in the grapple rules, the slow is supposed to represent that. If they intended to use the carry capacity rules for shoves, grapples etc they would mention it, they likely would not even give you the option to shove creatures one size larger, and weight would be a stat on creatures. The grapple rules drag feature imo is clearly a exception to the carry capacity rules.

 

The two size limit is how they represent something that is too heavy to move. One size bigger and its not, two sizes bigger and it is.

 See, that's how I read it too. I assumed the slow condition reflected the weight of the creature and the fact it was probably fighting back. Heck, this might even be how they handle encumbrance now too. 

But then the Movable part of Grappled says you can 'drag or carry,' both words used in the Lifting and Carrying rules, so I can see that interpretation too. Because of the whole 'natural language' thing.  But that doesn't work without weights listed for every monster. 

This is why we can't provide great feedback other than 'it doesn't make sense, please clarify' and wait for the next round of UA. 

Quote from Stegodorkus >>

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

Quote from Stegodorkus >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from kamchatmonk >>

And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.

 No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.

 Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.

Lifting and Carrying

Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.

Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.

Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.

Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

GRAPPLED [CONDITION]
While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects:
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on
Attack Rolls against any target other than the
grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you,
but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.

 This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place. 

Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional. 

I remain unhappy with the AC target number.  The save to escape it is fine.  At least it takes strength into account.  Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember. 

 

It is not functional, questionably raw and probably not even intended. There is 0 mention of weight issues anywhere in the grapple rules, the slow is supposed to represent that. If they intended to use the carry capacity rules for shoves, grapples etc they would mention it, they likely would not even give you the option to shove creatures one size larger, and weight would be a stat on creatures. The grapple rules drag feature imo is clearly a exception to the carry capacity rules.

 

The two size limit is how they represent something that is too heavy to move. One size bigger and its not, two sizes bigger and it is.

 See, that's how I read it too. I assumed the slow condition reflected the weight of the creature and the fact it was probably fighting back. Heck, this might even be how they handle encumbrance now too. 

But then the Movable part of Grappled says you can 'drag or carry,' both words used in the Lifting and Carrying rules, so I can see that interpretation too. Because of the whole 'natural language' thing.  But that doesn't work without weights listed for every monster. 

This is why we can't provide great feedback other than 'it doesn't make sense, please clarify' and wait for the next round of UA. 

 They also don’t give weights for anything other than standard equipment. The game is designed so you can do far more than what’s written in the pages. The biggest flaws happen when people use one rule without looking at the rules as a whole. Everyone likes to claim this rule is the exception. This rule is general. As are the lift/drag/drag/carry rules. As a DM I wouldn’t let the monk drag the ogre if they dumped Str.  Maybe lift/drag/carry will change in 1dnd but the playtest guidance was to keep all existing rules that weren’t covered in the UA. That has been sloppy in some places.  Because movable brings up drag and carry it makes me look at the drag and carry rules. What’s funny is people just like to argue. Following the lift/drag/carry rules makes sense and fixes the one of the issues some people are having with the UA grapple. Ignoring those rules gives people something to complain about. Choose your path. 

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from kamchatmonk >>

And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.

 No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.

 Oh cool. So a wizard with 8 Str can make an unarmed strike against a ten ton boulder (so long as it's large), grapple it with one hand, and move it around, because screw a part of rules and screw common sense too)

The rules for resting don't say that you get burned if you step into fire, so I guess now it makes perfect sense to go to sleep right into bonfire)

Quote from kamchatmonk >>

Oh cool. So a wizard with 8 Str can make an unarmed strike against a ten ton boulder (so long as it's large), grapple it with one hand, and move it around, because screw a part of rules and screw common sense too)

5e treats objects totally differently from creatures; grapple is for use on creatures, not objects.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from kamchatmonk >>

Oh cool. So a wizard with 8 Str can make an unarmed strike against a ten ton boulder (so long as it's large), grapple it with one hand, and move it around, because screw a part of rules and screw common sense too)

5e treats objects totally differently from creatures; grapple is for use on creatures, not objects.

 Actually, no. Neither unarmed attack nor grappled condition mentions "creature". They mention "target". And nothing prevents you from targeting objects with melee attacks.

It certainly might be nice if framework rules were provided for approximately how much a creature would weigh depending on its size (e.g. small creatures weigh between 30 and 100 pounds, medium creatures weigh between 100 and 400 pounds, etc.). This would take up very little space and at least provide reinforcement that, yes, creatures do have a certain weight and that weight is a significant factor as to whether a creature can be lifted, carried, or dragged, just as is the case with objects. 

Quote from crayonshinchuck >>

It certainly might be nice if framework rules were provided for approximately how much a creature would weigh depending on its size (e.g. small creatures weigh between 30 and 100 pounds, medium creatures weigh between 100 and 400 pounds, etc.). This would take up very little space and at least provide reinforcement that, yes, creatures do have a certain weight and that weight is a significant factor as to whether a creature can be lifted, carried, or dragged, just as is the case with objects. 

 I was thinking of a similar concept: a weight range for size categories, adjusted by the creature's strength or constitution (as stronger creatures tend to be heavier). Or vice versa. Weight=[str]*[x lbs]*[size modifier].

I wrote a long reply that went into design history, but decided to move it to the 'hot takes' thread, to keep this one more on topic. In short, it's hard to write simple rules that cover most situations well. The grapple rules can be read in different ways, depending on how you look at them. We need context.  They need to write them more clearly, and let us know their intent for which rules are being replaced by the new ones.

I applaud simple rules.  I think simpler is almost always better.  The only downside of simple is there can be lots of unforeseen consequences and edge cases.  So it takes a lot of playtesting to find them.  I guess that's why we're here. 

So, I don't think we need monster weights. It will be so rarely used that it is mostly a waste of space, and when it is used, it will almost always nullify the thing you we're attempting anyways.  If the Lifting and Carrying rules still apply to grappling, then almost no one will have a high enough Strength to drag ANY large creatures.  So why bother making anyone look it up?  If these rules don't apply here, and it is covered by the Slowed condition, then we get very unrealistic situations. 

I think the best compromise for both simplicity and 'realism' is:

You can drag or carry a creature that is Tiny, or two sizes smaller than you.  You can drag or carry a creature the same size as you, but suffer the Slowed condition.  You cannot drag or carry a creature larger than you. 

That's all that is needed to cover 99% of situations.  If you still want the chance for creatures that are unnaturally strong for their size to be able to drag something larger than them, that can be covered with specific rules and abilities. For example, the Grappler feat, or Belt of Giant Strength could say 'you can drag a creature one size larger than you when you grapple them, but suffer the Slowed condition.'

I agree. Adding such "extra" rules into specific feats or items that the player gets to add to their sheet puts the onus onto the player to activate that rule.

It might also reduce the potential for other players to "suggest" how the newer players should handle their turn. ie "You should grapple that monster and drag it to the pit."

Quote from Kotath >>

The main reason that they have done it the way they have is likely so that they do not have to worry about coming up with weights for creatures, but the same problem does exist with respect to objects, such as figuring what a boulder weighs.

 If they started listing what things weigh, they'd need to rewrite the rules for encumbrance, because they result in large creatures being unable to lift or move things they really should be able to lift (there's a reason for the complex weight tables in 3e). In practice, 5e monsters seem to be using a subset of the size categories from 3e, which means:

• Tiny: Up to 2' in size, up to 8 lb (Diminutive and Fine do not exist in 5e)
• Small: 2-4' 8-60 lb
• Medium: 4-8', 60-500 lb
• Large: 8-16', 500 lb-2 tons
• Huge: 16-32', 2-16 tons.
• Gargantuan: 32' or more, 16 tons or more.

Quote from Kotath >>

They should re-write those rules anyway, IMO. Long overdue.

 It would probably have to be extremely nonlinear for the strength 20-30 range, because they've compressed such a vast range of creatures into such a narrow range of values (an ogre weighs 'close to a thousand pounds', a tarrasque weighs 'hundreds of tons'. There's only 11 points of strength difference between them).

Survey for the Expert Classes UA is up. Be sure to respond with what you liked or didnt like

Quote from Kaboom979 >>

Survey for the Expert Classes UA is up. Be sure to respond with what you liked or didnt like

 I'm bowing out for this one, I have nothing constructive to add.

Completed. A lot of it feels odd to grade as with the small picture we have we don't know if it works. So balance oriented things for example I can't really say much on. I can say the lore bard doesn't feel like it represents lore much, so mark that as dissatisfied, I can say jump as an action is just bad design etc. But is heavy weapons master good? No idea, as maybe weapon damage will scale by level once we see those rules, maybe -5+10 is now just a standard combat option. it is on par with the other level 4 options for the most part.