This means all player actions are available to monsters. although monsters may have a secondary option in their action block.
I am aware of that, but in general the expectation is that a creature's sheet will reflect the normal way of playing the monster, and it's notable that even for monsters where it would totally make sense for them to use the grappling rules, such as a vampire spawn, they (a) do not have such an action mentioned, and (b) do not have athletics.
This means all player actions are available to monsters. although monsters may have a secondary option in their action block.
I am aware of that, but in general the expectation is that a creature's sheet will reflect the normal way of playing the monster, and it's notable that even for monsters where it would totally make sense for them to use the grappling rules, such as a vampire spawn, they (a) do not have such an action mentioned, and (b) do not have athletics.
That is because the vampire spawn and other creatures with grapple in 5e operate differently than the normal grapple rules. When you land an attack with vampire spawn you can choose to grapple rather than deal damage. While they are proposing that for everyone now, before it was unique to vampire spawns claw feature. So that is why it is listed in their stat blocks. Not because other creatures can't or won't do it.
This means all player actions are available to monsters. although monsters may have a secondary option in their action block.
I am aware of that, but in general the expectation is that a creature's sheet will reflect the normal way of playing the monster, and it's notable that even for monsters where it would totally make sense for them to use the grappling rules, such as a vampire spawn, they (a) do not have such an action mentioned, and (b) do not have athletics.
I think it’s just assumed that normal grappling and shoving (and hiding, searching, dashing, etc.) are all universal rules, and therefore don’t need to be reprinted on every statblock. After all, isn’t that the entire point of universal rules?
I think it’s just assumed that normal grappling and shoving (and hiding, searching, dashing, etc.) are all universal rules, and therefore don’t need to be reprinted on every statblock. After all, isn’t that the entire point of universal rules?
The stats of a spear are also universal, but still get listed on the stat block for a guard. The general philosophy for stat blocks appears to be that you should be able to use the monster without looking up rules, so its common tactics, even if universal, still get listed. Grappling is supposed to be a common tactic for the vampire spawn, and in fact they do provide a grapple action on its stat block -- which doesn't work at all like PC grappling in 5e. What they've done in One D&D is given PCs the same grapple mechanics that monsters were already using.
I think it’s just assumed that normal grappling and shoving (and hiding, searching, dashing, etc.) are all universal rules, and therefore don’t need to be reprinted on every statblock. After all, isn’t that the entire point of universal rules?
The stats of a spear are also universal, but still get listed on the stat block for a guard. The general philosophy for stat blocks appears to be that you should be able to use the monster without looking up rules, so its common tactics, even if universal, still get listed. Grappling is supposed to be a common tactic for the vampire spawn, and in fact they do provide a grapple action on its stat block -- which doesn't work at all like PC grappling in 5e. What they've done in One D&D is given PCs the same grapple mechanics that monsters were already using.
No, the rules for a spear aren’t printed on the guard’s statblock, the rules for a guard making an attack with a spear are what’s printed, including it’s attack and damage modifiers.
And considering how many people are objecting to the grapple rules in 1DD, that should tell you something.
Having played 3.5 before switching (reluctantly) to 5e, I see these improved grapple rules as a nod towards the 3.5 grapple rules, which were much more complicated but presented enough utility that characters would want to learn them and use them in their encounters. 5e grapple rules really only made themselves useful in situations where the players would want to question an NPC before killing it (at least, in my experience).
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.
Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.
Lifting and Carrying
Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.
Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION] While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects: Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on Attack Rolls against any target other than the grappler. Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler. Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
And considering how many people are objecting to the grapple rules in 1DD, that should tell you something.
I didn't say that the 1DD grapple rules are good. Just that they're the same as the grapple rules for monsters in 5e. Personally, I've given vampires athletics and let them use grapple as part of their multiattack (and will likely do the same for other grappling monsters if I use them) because I loathe grapple attacks vs AC, but it's clearly the way grappling is supposed to be used for monsters in 5e.
Having played 3.5 before switching (reluctantly) to 5e, I see these improved grapple rules as a nod towards the 3.5 grapple rules, which were much more complicated but presented enough utility that characters would want to learn them and use them in their encounters. 5e grapple rules really only made themselves useful in situations where the players would want to question an NPC before killing it (at least, in my experience).
Grappling is a frequent optimizer tactic for battle field control or drag damage through spikegrowth or other location based damage.
Having easier ways out of grapples helps balance such strategies. However I am not sure it was a problem because the game had other methods or required a significant investment for players to really take advantage of it.
And considering how many people are objecting to the grapple rules in 1DD, that should tell you something.
I didn't say that the 1DD grapple rules are good. Just that they're the same as the grapple rules for monsters in 5e. Personally, I've given vampires athletics and let them use grapple as part of their multiattack (and will likely do the same for other grappling monsters if I use them) because I loathe grapple attacks vs AC, but it's clearly the way grappling is supposed to be used for monsters in 5e.
Again, no, that’s just the way grappling works for some specific monsters in 5e, for all the rest of them it works exactly the same way it works for PCs.
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.
Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.
Lifting and Carrying
Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.
Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION] While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects: Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on Attack Rolls against any target other than the grappler. Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler. Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place.
Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional.
I remain unhappy with the AC target number. The save to escape it is fine. At least it takes strength into account. Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember.
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.
Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.
Lifting and Carrying
Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.
Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION] While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects: Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on Attack Rolls against any target other than the grappler. Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler. Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place.
Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional.
I remain unhappy with the AC target number. The save to escape it is fine. At least it takes strength into account. Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember.
True. They should have links to relevant rules or at least a reference to where to find them. Also what’s weird is that grappling a creature brings their speed to 0 even if they could carry or drag you. Monsters weights can vary so I guess they left that up to the DM to decide. Maybe they should change the unarmed strike ability to grab instead of grapple. When you hit with an unarmed strike you may grab a creature that is no more than one size larger than you. A grabbed creature cannot move unless it drags or carries you with it. If it can not drag or carry you it is grappled. Technically this makes it more complicated because now there is a whole mechanic for grab, but it would describe what is actually happening.
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.
Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.
Lifting and Carrying
Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.
Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION] While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects: Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on Attack Rolls against any target other than the grappler. Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler. Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place.
Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional.
I remain unhappy with the AC target number. The save to escape it is fine. At least it takes strength into account. Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember.
It is not functional, questionably raw and probably not even intended. There is 0 mention of weight issues anywhere in the grapple rules, the slow is supposed to represent that. If they intended to use the carry capacity rules for shoves, grapples etc they would mention it, they likely would not even give you the option to shove creatures one size larger, and weight would be a stat on creatures. The grapple rules drag feature imo is clearly a exception to the carry capacity rules.
The two size limit is how they represent something that is too heavy to move. One size bigger and its not, two sizes bigger and it is.
This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place.
Given that no monster I'm aware of even lists its weight, and we haven't even seen the rules for lifting and dragging in 1DD, I'm confident that weight is not supposed to be a factor.
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.
Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.
Lifting and Carrying
Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.
Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION] While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects: Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on Attack Rolls against any target other than the grappler. Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler. Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place.
Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional.
I remain unhappy with the AC target number. The save to escape it is fine. At least it takes strength into account. Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember.
It is not functional, questionably raw and probably not even intended. There is 0 mention of weight issues anywhere in the grapple rules, the slow is supposed to represent that. If they intended to use the carry capacity rules for shoves, grapples etc they would mention it, they likely would not even give you the option to shove creatures one size larger, and weight would be a stat on creatures. The grapple rules drag feature imo is clearly a exception to the carry capacity rules.
The two size limit is how they represent something that is too heavy to move. One size bigger and its not, two sizes bigger and it is.
See, that's how I read it too. I assumed the slow condition reflected the weight of the creature and the fact it was probably fighting back. Heck, this might even be how they handle encumbrance now too.
But then the Movable part of Grappled says you can 'drag or carry,' both words used in the Lifting and Carrying rules, so I can see that interpretation too. Because of the whole 'natural language' thing. But that doesn't work without weights listed for every monster.
This is why we can't provide great feedback other than 'it doesn't make sense, please clarify' and wait for the next round of UA.
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.
Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.
Lifting and Carrying
Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.
Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION] While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects: Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on Attack Rolls against any target other than the grappler. Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler. Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place.
Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional.
I remain unhappy with the AC target number. The save to escape it is fine. At least it takes strength into account. Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember.
It is not functional, questionably raw and probably not even intended. There is 0 mention of weight issues anywhere in the grapple rules, the slow is supposed to represent that. If they intended to use the carry capacity rules for shoves, grapples etc they would mention it, they likely would not even give you the option to shove creatures one size larger, and weight would be a stat on creatures. The grapple rules drag feature imo is clearly a exception to the carry capacity rules.
The two size limit is how they represent something that is too heavy to move. One size bigger and its not, two sizes bigger and it is.
See, that's how I read it too. I assumed the slow condition reflected the weight of the creature and the fact it was probably fighting back. Heck, this might even be how they handle encumbrance now too.
But then the Movable part of Grappled says you can 'drag or carry,' both words used in the Lifting and Carrying rules, so I can see that interpretation too. Because of the whole 'natural language' thing. But that doesn't work without weights listed for every monster.
This is why we can't provide great feedback other than 'it doesn't make sense, please clarify' and wait for the next round of UA.
They also don’t give weights for anything other than standard equipment. The game is designed so you can do far more than what’s written in the pages. The biggest flaws happen when people use one rule without looking at the rules as a whole. Everyone likes to claim this rule is the exception. This rule is general. As are the lift/drag/drag/carry rules. As a DM I wouldn’t let the monk drag the ogre if they dumped Str. Maybe lift/drag/carry will change in 1dnd but the playtest guidance was to keep all existing rules that weren’t covered in the UA. That has been sloppy in some places. Because movable brings up drag and carry it makes me look at the drag and carry rules. What’s funny is people just like to argue. Following the lift/drag/carry rules makes sense and fixes the one of the issues some people are having with the UA grapple. Ignoring those rules gives people something to complain about. Choose your path.
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.
Oh cool. So a wizard with 8 Str can make an unarmed strike against a ten ton boulder (so long as it's large), grapple it with one hand, and move it around, because screw a part of rules and screw common sense too)
The rules for resting don't say that you get burned if you step into fire, so I guess now it makes perfect sense to go to sleep right into bonfire)
Oh cool. So a wizard with 8 Str can make an unarmed strike against a ten ton boulder (so long as it's large), grapple it with one hand, and move it around, because screw a part of rules and screw common sense too)
5e treats objects totally differently from creatures; grapple is for use on creatures, not objects.
Oh cool. So a wizard with 8 Str can make an unarmed strike against a ten ton boulder (so long as it's large), grapple it with one hand, and move it around, because screw a part of rules and screw common sense too)
5e treats objects totally differently from creatures; grapple is for use on creatures, not objects.
Actually, no. Neither unarmed attack nor grappled condition mentions "creature". They mention "target". And nothing prevents you from targeting objects with melee attacks.
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What they👆said.
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I am aware of that, but in general the expectation is that a creature's sheet will reflect the normal way of playing the monster, and it's notable that even for monsters where it would totally make sense for them to use the grappling rules, such as a vampire spawn, they (a) do not have such an action mentioned, and (b) do not have athletics.
That is because the vampire spawn and other creatures with grapple in 5e operate differently than the normal grapple rules. When you land an attack with vampire spawn you can choose to grapple rather than deal damage. While they are proposing that for everyone now, before it was unique to vampire spawns claw feature. So that is why it is listed in their stat blocks. Not because other creatures can't or won't do it.
I think it’s just assumed that normal grappling and shoving (and hiding, searching, dashing, etc.) are all universal rules, and therefore don’t need to be reprinted on every statblock. After all, isn’t that the entire point of universal rules?
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The stats of a spear are also universal, but still get listed on the stat block for a guard. The general philosophy for stat blocks appears to be that you should be able to use the monster without looking up rules, so its common tactics, even if universal, still get listed. Grappling is supposed to be a common tactic for the vampire spawn, and in fact they do provide a grapple action on its stat block -- which doesn't work at all like PC grappling in 5e. What they've done in One D&D is given PCs the same grapple mechanics that monsters were already using.
No, the rules for a spear aren’t printed on the guard’s statblock, the rules for a guard making an attack with a spear are what’s printed, including it’s attack and damage modifiers.
And considering how many people are objecting to the grapple rules in 1DD, that should tell you something.
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Having played 3.5 before switching (reluctantly) to 5e, I see these improved grapple rules as a nod towards the 3.5 grapple rules, which were much more complicated but presented enough utility that characters would want to learn them and use them in their encounters. 5e grapple rules really only made themselves useful in situations where the players would want to question an NPC before killing it (at least, in my experience).
~not a "lazy dungeon master"
Wrong. You can grapple or shove a monster one size category than you, but you can’t drag them without a check if they exceed your lift/drag/carry weight. If they are within that range you are slowed. Lift/drag/carry is a specific rule. It is not overwritten by the new grapple rule.
Lifting and Carrying
Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.
Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION]
While you are Grappled, you experience the following effects:
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on
Attack Rolls against any target other than the
grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you,
but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
Escape. While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a success. The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
I didn't say that the 1DD grapple rules are good. Just that they're the same as the grapple rules for monsters in 5e. Personally, I've given vampires athletics and let them use grapple as part of their multiattack (and will likely do the same for other grappling monsters if I use them) because I loathe grapple attacks vs AC, but it's clearly the way grappling is supposed to be used for monsters in 5e.
Grappling is a frequent optimizer tactic for battle field control or drag damage through spikegrowth or other location based damage.
Having easier ways out of grapples helps balance such strategies. However I am not sure it was a problem because the game had other methods or required a significant investment for players to really take advantage of it.
Again, no, that’s just the way grappling works for some specific monsters in 5e, for all the rest of them it works exactly the same way it works for PCs.
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This is a good case for why they need to include all the relevant rules for something in the same place.
Okay, so you can grapple a 2,000 pound warhorse, but you can't move it anywhere. That should be more clear. And we still don't know what an Ogre weighs for this to even be close to functional.
I remain unhappy with the AC target number. The save to escape it is fine. At least it takes strength into account. Maybe creatures larger than you should get +5 to AC, for each size category larger, for grappling DCs only. At least that's something more realistic, and easy to remember.
True. They should have links to relevant rules or at least a reference to where to find them. Also what’s weird is that grappling a creature brings their speed to 0 even if they could carry or drag you. Monsters weights can vary so I guess they left that up to the DM to decide. Maybe they should change the unarmed strike ability to grab instead of grapple.
When you hit with an unarmed strike you may grab a creature that is no more than one size larger than you. A grabbed creature cannot move unless it drags or carries you with it. If it can not drag or carry you it is grappled.
Technically this makes it more complicated because now there is a whole mechanic for grab, but it would describe what is actually happening.
It is not functional, questionably raw and probably not even intended. There is 0 mention of weight issues anywhere in the grapple rules, the slow is supposed to represent that. If they intended to use the carry capacity rules for shoves, grapples etc they would mention it, they likely would not even give you the option to shove creatures one size larger, and weight would be a stat on creatures. The grapple rules drag feature imo is clearly a exception to the carry capacity rules.
The two size limit is how they represent something that is too heavy to move. One size bigger and its not, two sizes bigger and it is.
Given that no monster I'm aware of even lists its weight, and we haven't even seen the rules for lifting and dragging in 1DD, I'm confident that weight is not supposed to be a factor.
See, that's how I read it too. I assumed the slow condition reflected the weight of the creature and the fact it was probably fighting back. Heck, this might even be how they handle encumbrance now too.
But then the Movable part of Grappled says you can 'drag or carry,' both words used in the Lifting and Carrying rules, so I can see that interpretation too. Because of the whole 'natural language' thing. But that doesn't work without weights listed for every monster.
This is why we can't provide great feedback other than 'it doesn't make sense, please clarify' and wait for the next round of UA.
They also don’t give weights for anything other than standard equipment. The game is designed so you can do far more than what’s written in the pages. The biggest flaws happen when people use one rule without looking at the rules as a whole. Everyone likes to claim this rule is the exception. This rule is general. As are the lift/drag/drag/carry rules. As a DM I wouldn’t let the monk drag the ogre if they dumped Str. Maybe lift/drag/carry will change in 1dnd but the playtest guidance was to keep all existing rules that weren’t covered in the UA. That has been sloppy in some places. Because movable brings up drag and carry it makes me look at the drag and carry rules. What’s funny is people just like to argue. Following the lift/drag/carry rules makes sense and fixes the one of the issues some people are having with the UA grapple. Ignoring those rules gives people something to complain about. Choose your path.
Oh cool. So a wizard with 8 Str can make an unarmed strike against a ten ton boulder (so long as it's large), grapple it with one hand, and move it around, because screw a part of rules and screw common sense too)
The rules for resting don't say that you get burned if you step into fire, so I guess now it makes perfect sense to go to sleep right into bonfire)
5e treats objects totally differently from creatures; grapple is for use on creatures, not objects.
Actually, no. Neither unarmed attack nor grappled condition mentions "creature". They mention "target". And nothing prevents you from targeting objects with melee attacks.