Ah, formatting mistake for the first one. I meant the flame tongue shortsword would be better on a fighter. Cloak of displacement is really good, in general, but it overlaps with monk abilities. Monk needs items like fighter has to boost AC and attack damage rolls without attunement.
So what? Why is "oh well this one other class could use this better than you" mean "you can never ever have this magic item"? It is still a good item that benefits the monk, so why in the Nine Hells wouldn't a monk get to have one?
95% of magic items can be used by anyone, why would that mean that nobody gets to have any of them? A +1 dagger can be use by anyone so I guess that means fighters don't have any good magic items. Actually you know what Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues don't have any unique items that only they can use at all! 0, nothing, nada! Absolutely no items designed specifically for them. So I guess that means they suck b/c they don't have any magic items at all right? I mean every item that a Barbarian can use could be used better by a fighter too, so I guess they are crippled by having no magic items right? -> yeah! you know prove to me that Barbarian have any magic items at all! Because everything is attunement or better used by a fighter!
Also: No, a flametongue shortsword would not be better on a fighter because a Dex-based fighter is mainly using bows, and a Str fighter will want a heavy weapon.
Monk needs items like fighter has to boost AC and attack damage rolls without attunement.
That is literally what a flametongue shortsword does! It gives them +2d6 damage on their main attacks without requiring attunement. That works out better than a set of +1 gloves.
Edit to add:
Actually you know what? Rangers, Paladins, Rogues, and Barbarians are all worse for magic items than the Monk is because a Fighter would be better using at every single magic item they could use than they are.
Ah, formatting mistake for the first one. I meant the flame tongue shortsword would be better on a fighter. Cloak of displacement is really good, in general, but it overlaps with monk abilities. Monk needs items like fighter has to boost AC and attack damage rolls without attunement.
So what? Why is "oh well this one other class could use this better than you" mean "you can never ever have this magic item"? It is still a good item that benefits the monk, so why in the Nine Hells wouldn't a monk get to have one?
95% of magic items can be used by anyone, why would that mean that nobody gets to have any of them? A +1 dagger can be use by anyone so I guess that means fighters don't have any good magic items. Actually you know what Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues don't have any unique items that only they can use at all! 0, nothing, nada! Absolutely no items designed specifically for them. So I guess that means they suck b/c they don't have any magic items at all right? I mean every item that a Barbarian can use could be used better by a fighter too, so I guess they are crippled by having no magic items right? -> yeah! you know prove to me that Barbarian have any magic items at all! Because everything is attunement or better used by a fighter!
Also: No, a flametongue shortsword would not be better on a fighter because a Dex-based fighter is mainly using bows, and a Str fighter will want a heavy weapon.
Monk needs items like fighter has to boost AC and attack damage rolls without attunement.
That is literally what a flametongue shortsword does! It gives them +2d6 damage on their main attacks without requiring attunement. That works out better than a set of +1 gloves.
Edit to add:
Actually you know what? Rangers, Paladins, Rogues, and Barbarians are all worse for magic items than the Monk is because a Fighter would be better using at every single magic item they could use than they are.
You are very unlikely to get duplicates. Since fighter will get more value out of it, it is more likely to go to a fighter than a monk. I’m talking about items that are best for monk - I think I expressed myself poorly. It is always monk - or at least 95% monk - who gets the best value out of them. So the monk actually gets something, without it being a net loss to the party.
Flametongue shortswords are attunement, by the way. And dex based fighters can just as easily be sword and board, or even a one-level monk dip. Archer is one option for dex based. Dual wielding and duelist are just as good, as is thrown weapons. Same as strength based could be sword and board or thrown weapons or grappling. You’ve invented roles for them there, probably based on your own game experience.
You are very unlikely to get duplicates. Since fighter will get more value out of it, it is more likely to go to a fighter than a monk. I’m talking about items that are best for monk - I think I expressed myself poorly. It is always monk - or at least 95% monk - who gets the best value out of them. So the monk actually gets something, without it being a net loss to the party.
Flametongue shortswords are attunement, by the way. And dex based fighters can just as easily be sword and board, or even a one-level monk dip. Archer is one option for dex based. Dual wielding and duelist are just as good, as is thrown weapons. Same as strength based could be sword and board or thrown weapons or grappling. You’ve invented roles for them there, probably based on your own game experience.
The exact same argument can be made for a Ranger, Rogue, Paladin or Barbarian. All of them get only 2 attacks (only 1 for rogue) with a shortsword vs the fighter (if level 11+) getting three so why don't you scream about there being no items for any of those classes? (Also note that level 1-10 monk gets just as much use of the flametongue shortsword than the fighter)
Also how many parties have melee dex-based fighters? I've only ever seen 1 because a STR melee fighter is just better than a DEX one, a STR fighter less less benefit from a flametongue shortsword since it is incompatible with GWM (which they probably have) PAM (which they might have) doesn't benefit from GWF (which they probably have) so they are losing out on a lot of their build in order to use the shortsword, whereas the monk is not, so it will probably go to the monk not the Fighter.
You are very unlikely to get duplicates. Since fighter will get more value out of it, it is more likely to go to a fighter than a monk. I’m talking about items that are best for monk - I think I expressed myself poorly. It is always monk - or at least 95% monk - who gets the best value out of them. So the monk actually gets something, without it being a net loss to the party.
Flametongue shortswords are attunement, by the way. And dex based fighters can just as easily be sword and board, or even a one-level monk dip. Archer is one option for dex based. Dual wielding and duelist are just as good, as is thrown weapons. Same as strength based could be sword and board or thrown weapons or grappling. You’ve invented roles for them there, probably based on your own game experience.
The exact same argument can be made for a Ranger, Rogue, Paladin or Barbarian. All of them get only 2 attacks (only 1 for rogue) with a shortsword vs the fighter (if level 11+) getting three so why don't you scream about there being no items for any of those classes? (Also note that level 1-10 monk gets just as much use of the flametongue shortsword than the fighter)
Also how many parties have melee dex-based fighters? I've only ever seen 1 because a STR melee fighter is just better than a DEX one, a STR fighter less less benefit from a flametongue shortsword since it is incompatible with GWM (which they probably have) PAM (which they might have) doesn't benefit from GWF (which they probably have) so they are losing out on a lot of their build in order to use the shortsword, whereas the monk is not, so it will probably go to the monk not the Fighter.
monk can't use a shortsword anymore, or any version of flametoungue, they are all martial blades
Also dual weapons is only one way to get more attacks.
PAM is another way, which uses one weapon (with reach)
GWM is another which uses one weapon (on crit)
Swift quiver is another which uses one weapon
Monk currently can't take any of those feats btw.
Not to mention, barbarian, Ranger, paladin have stat bonuses so they do more damage VIA less attacks. The BArbarian does more damage with three than monks do with 4.
so the accuracy matters. the other classes might be doing 40 damage *.70 accuracy. the monk is doing 16damage*.7+16damage*.65 accuracy. Note the monk has a number of subclass features that reference FOB, so these also have reduced accuracy, and its a bigger difference the higher your level (up to 15% accuracy and 1-3 damage)
also note, you can get two magic items, they may not be very rare, but dual users will probably have multiple +1s or +2s
if monk wasn't dead last in damage this might be ignored, but its one of the factors why monk is dead last, a whole bunch of little things that add up to big deficits
Its really interesting, because it almost appears UA6 is going out of their way to make monks bad.
before they had shortswords, access to these other feats and fightingstyles. Even quarterstaff used to qualify for PAM, but it got removed. They used to get MA die, but now, they are -1 die size at virtually every use case for weapons twf, take this d4 nick. versatile? take this d6/d8 instead of d8/d10. one handed? d6 vs d8
Id say most of this was to make pure casters less good at martial, (though many get it, so I dunno) but why would any designer put monk into the same martial ability grouping as sorcerer and wizard?
LOL these two sentences seem to be in direct contradiction:
You are very unlikely to get duplicates.
also note, you can get two magic items, they may not be very rare, but dual users will probably have multiple +1s or +2s
We are talking specifically about magic items, we can argue about class features until the cows come home. But you specifically mentioned access of magic items as a significant weakness of the Monk class. I listed a half dozen magic items that are great for monks, and you refuted that because a fighter benefits from them more some how this means they are not available to monks. Do you still stand by this argument -> in which case please explain how this does not apply to access to magic items for Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, and Rogue? Or you admit there are lots of magic items that are good for Monks and that they could be given in any campaign?
LOL these two sentences seem to be in direct contradiction:
You are very unlikely to get duplicates.
also note, you can get two magic items, they may not be very rare, but dual users will probably have multiple +1s or +2s
We are talking specifically about magic items, we can argue about class features until the cows come home. But you specifically mentioned access of magic items as a significant weakness of the Monk class. I listed a half dozen magic items that are great for monks, and you refuted that because a fighter benefits from them more some how this means they are not available to monks. Do you still stand by this argument -> in which case please explain how this does not apply to access to magic items for Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, and Rogue? Or you admit there are lots of magic items that are good for Monks and that they could be given in any campaign?
First off those quotes are from two different people. redpelt said the first, I said the second.
Most of things you are attributing to me, I never said.
Also, there is difference between duplicate flametoungues, and getting any usable +1+2 1hand weapon.
if they are using random tables, your chance of getting multiple magic items is high.
if they are using modules/adventures, you will definitely have a number of +1+2 items.
And yes, features matter. Most specifically for monk, because their item design and attack spread is different from every other martial class.
1)monk literally cannot use most of weapons available. That means 60% less available magic weapons. Most magic weapons are also not simple weapons. You mentioned a flametoungue, which monks can no longer use, for example.
2)50% of monks attacks don't use weapons. As opposed to other classes, and monk is balanced so that they need all of those attacks just to be s low damage class. Even twf classes only use a different weapon for 1/3 attacks.
3) the lack of features tied to weapons means a greater% of the monk's damage comes from unarmed attacks. If they had access to dueling for example, their unarmed attacks represent a smaller share of their damage. if they had twf, it might be worth it use a +1handaxe. I they had charger, instead of having poor accuracy on 50% of their damage, it might be 40% of their damage. Monk's feature to make MA dice usable for all weapons made a +1club a viable pick for them, thats no longer the case. Features matter
that is part of why its an issue. Many tables do not handpick items for players, And monk up to now, does not have access to the most magic items
you asked why this issue is worse for monks than other classes, I explained why.
LOL these two sentences seem to be in direct contradiction:
You are very unlikely to get duplicates.
also note, you can get two magic items, they may not be very rare, but dual users will probably have multiple +1s or +2s
We are talking specifically about magic items, we can argue about class features until the cows come home. But you specifically mentioned access of magic items as a significant weakness of the Monk class. I listed a half dozen magic items that are great for monks, and you refuted that because a fighter benefits from them more some how this means they are not available to monks. Do you still stand by this argument -> in which case please explain how this does not apply to access to magic items for Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, and Rogue? Or you admit there are lots of magic items that are good for Monks and that they could be given in any campaign?
You’re making an incorrect statement and turning the argument into an either/or, which is a logical fallacy. Paladin, ranger, barbarian and rogue all outclass monk, and have distinct roles which magic items can help them fill. Monk is bad at its role, and its role can be achieved by a fighter. It also lacks standard +X AC bonus or attack/damage bonus magic items which don’t require attunement, which means at higher levels it lags behind other martials even more.
As for your reference on how two people’s supposedly contradictory comments, who haven’t coordinated their arguments or even communicated outside of this thread, they don’t even contradict each other. I was referring to named magic items, not carbon copy +X items. You are unlikely to see two flame tongues in a game. You’ve also revealed the problem in your own argument - ‘could’ be given in any campaign. Monk has a half-dozen good magic items and you’re calling that sufficient. How many does fighter have? How many more variations of armour and weapons does a fighter have access to that could be magical? It’s much, much, more. Moreover, many magic items that are good for monk - especially the ones that you mentioned in the other thread - are good for monk because they are incredibly strong anyway, with the exception of the monk-focused dragonhide belt. Gloves of soul catching, blood fury tattoo.. these are items you will most likely never see in a campaign, because they boost the power of a character so much they outshine everyone else. Gwar1 even says ‘they might not be very rare’.
It also lacks standard +X AC bonus or attack/damage bonus magic items which don’t require attunement, which means at higher levels it lags behind other martials even more.
Except it doesn't. A monk can use a +3 bow, a +3 shortsword (in 5e), a +3 quarterstaff, a +3 dagger, a +3 spear etc... and gain just as much from it as a ranger or a paladin (+3 bonus on 2 attack per round). In 5e this is even supported by the monk getting to use their MA die for the damage roll so a monk would do MORE damage with a +3 dagger than any other class.
I agree they have messed this up in 5eR which is why I put on the survey that they need to give back MA die to monk weapons and give weapon masteries to unarmed strikes.
If the party is rolling in +X weapons why in the world wouldn't they give one to the monk?
A low-level Monk gets gassed almost immediately... up 'til level 7 or so, you never have enough ki to do anything interesting, especially when you feel that any ki not spent on a Stunning Strike is basically wasted. However, once you get into higher levels, suddenly you have so many ki points that you don't even really need to think about them.
I think this speaks to a deeper design flaw that exists many places in 5e but resonates the most with monk and sorcerer.
Adventuring days tend to be just as long at level 1 as they are at level 20. You have roughly the same amount of encounters and the same amount of rounds to actually take an action. Those values stay fixed as your resources go up, and so this spectrum ranges from "can barely do anything" to "have more points than I have actions to spend them."
It would make a lot more sense to flatten this line and scale the power of the stuff you can do rather than just the number of times you can do it. Or at least at higher levels have "upgraded" versions of the abilities that cost more ki. Being able to add more attacks to FOB, for example, could help a lot with the problem of monk damage basically plateauing after the first 10 levels.
So I think that may have colored my view of the Monk, because the two versions I'm most familiar with have built-in methods for maintaining their ability to zip across the battlefield without worrying as much about Attacks of Opportunity. Neither of them are broken by any means, so I think making it easier to utilize those features across the board for Monks would do a lot to help them keep up, and even potentially outpace some of the other classes.
One way we have handled this in my games is by just making Step of the Wind free. There is still significant opportunity cost in giving up your bonus action, and it just feels like something monks should be able to do. This ability is already poachable through multiclass by taking rogue, so it doesn't affect things there. We've really liked this change.
I don't think Stunning Strike is much of a problem honestly. It's high risk/high reward due to its high failure rate, and as others have pointed out plenty of other classes can do this kind of thing. If anything, I'd like to see its options expanded to be able to target other saves to produce other status effects.
Also I feel like I should point out that post-Tasha's, all monks can use martial weapons so almost all of those are on the table as magic item options. Monk is intended to be a weapon using class that uses their unarmed strikes as a supplement to their weapon attacks, not as a replacement for them.
Edit seems broken at the moment. I just realized what forum I'm in, so please disregard any of the things that don't apply to the OD&D monk as we know it so far.
I'd replace Stunning Strike with a feature that let me make a second bonus unarmed strike at the same time I use my regular bonus unarmed strike.
Isn't that called Flurry of Blows? Are you just asking for the option to do Flurry for free?
The joke is that a lot of people who claim Monk Bad treat Stunning Strike as the only Monk ability worth using, and as a result blow all of their points trying to land stuns instead of making use of other features, then complain about lack of damage and utility and resources.
That’s because the features are bad by comparison to each other. Imagine I give you a dollar and you can buy anything from my store. In my store I have 4 items. Each item cost 1 dollar. One is a wheel you can spin and if it lands on the correct spot you get a five course meal drinks included. The odds vary day to day and you don’t know them until after you spin. I have sandwich with water for sale. I have a protein bar for sale. Finally there snickers mini. You can buy any of these for the 1 dollar. Which one seems like it is worth your dollar?
I'd replace Stunning Strike with a feature that let me make a second bonus unarmed strike at the same time I use my regular bonus unarmed strike.
Isn't that called Flurry of Blows? Are you just asking for the option to do Flurry for free?
The joke is that a lot of people who claim Monk Bad treat Stunning Strike as the only Monk ability worth using, and as a result blow all of their points trying to land stuns instead of making use of other features, then complain about lack of damage and utility and resources.
That’s because the features are bad by comparison to each other. Imagine I give you a dollar and you can buy anything from my store. In my store I have 4 items. Each item cost 1 dollar. One is a wheel you can spin and if it lands on the correct spot you get a five course meal drinks included. The odds vary day to day and you don’t know them until after you spin. I have sandwich with water for sale. I have a protein bar for sale. Finally there snickers mini. You can buy any of these for the 1 dollar. Which one seems like it is worth your dollar?
You realize that a sandwich for a dollar is actually a pretty good deal? Or even a protein bar for one dollar?
So yeah, maybe I would like to belch fire mid-combo, or deal guaranteed extra damage and poisoning, or just hit them another time.
Not compared to the five course meal. Also the analogy isn’t a perfect match since you very well could spend a ki point on FoB and miss one of the attacks. You already get one BA attack without spending the ki point. Also you could PD and still get hit or not get attacked. Value for cost stunning strike is simply leagues above the other choices.
I'd replace Stunning Strike with a feature that let me make a second bonus unarmed strike at the same time I use my regular bonus unarmed strike.
Isn't that called Flurry of Blows? Are you just asking for the option to do Flurry for free?
The joke is that a lot of people who claim Monk Bad treat Stunning Strike as the only Monk ability worth using, and as a result blow all of their points trying to land stuns instead of making use of other features, then complain about lack of damage and utility and resources.
That’s because the features are bad by comparison to each other. Imagine I give you a dollar and you can buy anything from my store. In my store I have 4 items. Each item cost 1 dollar. One is a wheel you can spin and if it lands on the correct spot you get a five course meal drinks included. The odds vary day to day and you don’t know them until after you spin. I have sandwich with water for sale. I have a protein bar for sale. Finally there snickers mini. You can buy any of these for the 1 dollar. Which one seems like it is worth your dollar?
You realize that a sandwich for a dollar is actually a pretty good deal? Or even a protein bar for one dollar?
So yeah, maybe I would like to belch fire mid-combo, or deal guaranteed extra damage and poisoning, or just hit them another time.
One simple fix for the monk would be to allow their features to work in light armor. Medium would be better, but I’m sure someone would have a brain aneurysm if I pushed too hard to give them a medium armor option.
It use to be flurry of misses when it was free. Let’s not leave out the details. Making FoB free while leaving PD and SotW having the same cost as Stunning Strike breaks the Monk even more. It puts you in a position were it looks like your job is to keep punching and using stunning strike defense be dayumed.
-Step of the Wind options should be free to use. Rogue doesn't have to "pay" for them- why should Monk? Spending your Bonus Action is cost enough.
-Levels 1-4, Monks should have 1 attack on Action plus Bonus Action attack. Levels 5-10, they should have Extra Attack on Action plus Bonus Action attack. Level 11+, they still have Extra Attack, but Bonus Action attack should be 2 attacks.
-Flurry of Blows should be basically like the Fighter's Action Surge, only the Monk could use it more often by spending Discipline/Ki. It would be like an extra attack Action added onto the turn. SO: Levels 1-4, Monk has 2 possible attacks/turn + option to get 2 more w FoB. Levels 5-10, 3 possible attacks per turn + option for 2 FoB attacks. Levels 11+, 4 possible attacks + option for 2 FoB attacks.
- Change Unarmored Defense to Dex modifier + 10 + Proficiency Bonus. I think this would help take some of the pressure off of having to build up multiple Ability Scores.
-Patient Defense should be Discipline/Ki free. You're already giving up your bonus action attack or other BA options. Why should you have to "pay" twice for it?
-Change Deflect Missiles to Deflect Attack, so it can be used to mitigate melee damage as well. Perhaps have an option to spend a Ki to knock melee opponents prone if all the damage is blocked (similar to catching/throwing the missile).
-Stunning Strike: limit it to once per short rest, but it just automatically works. No saving throw.
Those are the major points I'd change. By eliminating Ki costs for Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, and Stunning Strike, there should be enough Ki to go around for Flurry of Blows, Deflect Attacks, and for subclass options. Changing Unarmored Defense to use only Dex mod and making Stunning Strike have no saving throw makes the Monk a Dexterity class- Wisdom would be no longer a must have.
I'd replace Stunning Strike with a feature that let me make a second bonus unarmed strike at the same time I use my regular bonus unarmed strike.
Isn't that called Flurry of Blows? Are you just asking for the option to do Flurry for free?
The joke is that a lot of people who claim Monk Bad treat Stunning Strike as the only Monk ability worth using, and as a result blow all of their points trying to land stuns instead of making use of other features, then complain about lack of damage and utility and resources.
That’s because the features are bad by comparison to each other. Imagine I give you a dollar and you can buy anything from my store. In my store I have 4 items. Each item cost 1 dollar. One is a wheel you can spin and if it lands on the correct spot you get a five course meal drinks included. The odds vary day to day and you don’t know them until after you spin. I have sandwich with water for sale. I have a protein bar for sale. Finally there snickers mini. You can buy any of these for the 1 dollar. Which one seems like it is worth your dollar?
You realize that a sandwich for a dollar is actually a pretty good deal? Or even a protein bar for one dollar?
So yeah, maybe I would like to belch fire mid-combo, or deal guaranteed extra damage and poisoning, or just hit them another time.
Not compared to the five course meal.
That's not a sound analysis of deal value.
When dealing with the value of a thing that isn't 100% sure to happen/pay-off, people often forget that its value is mitigated by its probability of happening, which as you said is unknown. If the probability is less than 1/X, where X is the numeric value of the meal if you paid for it .. then yes, the $1 sandwich is a better value (multiply the value of it's success by the probability of it happening). Kind of like winning the lottery: you don't buy a ticket because it's a good value (it's not: the pay off times the probability is always less than the cost of the ticket ... often MUCH less), you buy just in case it might pay off. But it's a horribly bad idea to spend your rent, utility, debt payment, or food budget on lottery tickets. Sure, it'll all be ok if it pays off... but the probability of that is low enough that it's a rather poor analysis to say that it's a good deal. If you don't know, or can't know, the probability? It's prudent to assume a low probability of pay-off.
There's also whether or not you want to gamble for your meal (or rent): a guaranteed sandwich wont let you starve to death, even if it's not completely filling and satisfying. ((X -1) / X) ^ 4 (the probability of 4 successive failures) might end up being some level of rarity, but it's still possible that you would waste all $4 and not eat that day at all. For my first dollar, I would almost definitely go for the sandwich .. which I can always save for later if my second dollar on the full meal manages to score.
Rogues don't get extra movement for free. Not sure where you get that, or I seem to have missed the memo while playing them.
Step of the wind for free. More discipline points.
More options to spend those points on.
Don't give them that half assed "once per day if you expend this fancy NEW resource that really only has one use to refill your other resource" bs.
just give them more slots and more fun things to do with them.
I mean what about that distant fist thing in shows where they punch the air and can hit a target at a distance? Or better yet when they can punch THROUGH something or someone to hit something behind that thing instead?
Those would make some on theme kick ass new abilities.
Also rather than just stun, we need a good "fall prone" option. Because trust me, some kicks and punches will drop you.
OOH!!! martial artists can also take on multiple targets maybe so points to reflect an attack on you to a third target (other than you or the person attacking). Must be done before the attack is rolled, and it gives advantage to that roll, because having your enemies attack your enemies is such a sweet thing to reward with advantage...
Rogues don't get extra movement for free. Not sure where you get that, or I seem to have missed the memo while playing them.
Step of the wind for free. More discipline points.
More options to spend those points on.
Don't give them that half assed "once per day if you expend this fancy NEW resource that really only has one use to refill your other resource" bs.
just give them more slots and more fun things to do with them.
I mean what about that distant fist thing in shows where they punch the air and can hit a target at a distance? Or better yet when they can punch THROUGH something or someone to hit something behind that thing instead?
Those would make some on theme kick ass new abilities.
Also rather than just stun, we need a good "fall prone" option. Because trust me, some kicks and punches will drop you.
OOH!!! martial artists can also take on multiple targets maybe so points to reflect an attack on you to a third target (other than you or the person attacking). Must be done before the attack is rolled, and it gives advantage to that roll, because having your enemies attack your enemies is such a sweet thing to reward with advantage...
Rogues get "free” movement. It’s an action economy thing; they have much less competition for their bonus action than a monk, for instance, and so dashing with it pays off a lot more.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So what? Why is "oh well this one other class could use this better than you" mean "you can never ever have this magic item"? It is still a good item that benefits the monk, so why in the Nine Hells wouldn't a monk get to have one?
95% of magic items can be used by anyone, why would that mean that nobody gets to have any of them? A +1 dagger can be use by anyone so I guess that means fighters don't have any good magic items. Actually you know what Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues don't have any unique items that only they can use at all! 0, nothing, nada! Absolutely no items designed specifically for them. So I guess that means they suck b/c they don't have any magic items at all right? I mean every item that a Barbarian can use could be used better by a fighter too, so I guess they are crippled by having no magic items right? -> yeah! you know prove to me that Barbarian have any magic items at all! Because everything is attunement or better used by a fighter!
Also: No, a flametongue shortsword would not be better on a fighter because a Dex-based fighter is mainly using bows, and a Str fighter will want a heavy weapon.
That is literally what a flametongue shortsword does! It gives them +2d6 damage on their main attacks without requiring attunement. That works out better than a set of +1 gloves.
Edit to add:
Actually you know what? Rangers, Paladins, Rogues, and Barbarians are all worse for magic items than the Monk is because a Fighter would be better using at every single magic item they could use than they are.
You are very unlikely to get duplicates. Since fighter will get more value out of it, it is more likely to go to a fighter than a monk. I’m talking about items that are best for monk - I think I expressed myself poorly. It is always monk - or at least 95% monk - who gets the best value out of them. So the monk actually gets something, without it being a net loss to the party.
Flametongue shortswords are attunement, by the way. And dex based fighters can just as easily be sword and board, or even a one-level monk dip. Archer is one option for dex based. Dual wielding and duelist are just as good, as is thrown weapons. Same as strength based could be sword and board or thrown weapons or grappling. You’ve invented roles for them there, probably based on your own game experience.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
The exact same argument can be made for a Ranger, Rogue, Paladin or Barbarian. All of them get only 2 attacks (only 1 for rogue) with a shortsword vs the fighter (if level 11+) getting three so why don't you scream about there being no items for any of those classes? (Also note that level 1-10 monk gets just as much use of the flametongue shortsword than the fighter)
Also how many parties have melee dex-based fighters? I've only ever seen 1 because a STR melee fighter is just better than a DEX one, a STR fighter less less benefit from a flametongue shortsword since it is incompatible with GWM (which they probably have) PAM (which they might have) doesn't benefit from GWF (which they probably have) so they are losing out on a lot of their build in order to use the shortsword, whereas the monk is not, so it will probably go to the monk not the Fighter.
monk can't use a shortsword anymore, or any version of flametoungue, they are all martial blades
https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/5386-flame-tongue
Also dual weapons is only one way to get more attacks.
PAM is another way, which uses one weapon (with reach)
GWM is another which uses one weapon (on crit)
Swift quiver is another which uses one weapon
Monk currently can't take any of those feats btw.
Not to mention, barbarian, Ranger, paladin have stat bonuses so they do more damage VIA less attacks. The BArbarian does more damage with three than monks do with 4.
so the accuracy matters. the other classes might be doing 40 damage *.70 accuracy. the monk is doing 16damage*.7+16damage*.65 accuracy. Note the monk has a number of subclass features that reference FOB, so these also have reduced accuracy, and its a bigger difference the higher your level (up to 15% accuracy and 1-3 damage)
also note, you can get two magic items, they may not be very rare, but dual users will probably have multiple +1s or +2s
if monk wasn't dead last in damage this might be ignored, but its one of the factors why monk is dead last, a whole bunch of little things that add up to big deficits
Its really interesting, because it almost appears UA6 is going out of their way to make monks bad.
before they had shortswords, access to these other feats and fightingstyles. Even quarterstaff used to qualify for PAM, but it got removed. They used to get MA die, but now, they are -1 die size at virtually every use case for weapons twf, take this d4 nick. versatile? take this d6/d8 instead of d8/d10. one handed? d6 vs d8
Id say most of this was to make pure casters less good at martial, (though many get it, so I dunno) but why would any designer put monk into the same martial ability grouping as sorcerer and wizard?
LOL these two sentences seem to be in direct contradiction:
We are talking specifically about magic items, we can argue about class features until the cows come home. But you specifically mentioned access of magic items as a significant weakness of the Monk class. I listed a half dozen magic items that are great for monks, and you refuted that because a fighter benefits from them more some how this means they are not available to monks. Do you still stand by this argument -> in which case please explain how this does not apply to access to magic items for Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, and Rogue? Or you admit there are lots of magic items that are good for Monks and that they could be given in any campaign?
First off those quotes are from two different people. redpelt said the first, I said the second.
Most of things you are attributing to me, I never said.
Also, there is difference between duplicate flametoungues, and getting any usable +1+2 1hand weapon.
if they are using random tables, your chance of getting multiple magic items is high.
if they are using modules/adventures, you will definitely have a number of +1+2 items.
And yes, features matter. Most specifically for monk, because their item design and attack spread is different from every other martial class.
1)monk literally cannot use most of weapons available. That means 60% less available magic weapons. Most magic weapons are also not simple weapons. You mentioned a flametoungue, which monks can no longer use, for example.
2)50% of monks attacks don't use weapons. As opposed to other classes, and monk is balanced so that they need all of those attacks just to be s low damage class. Even twf classes only use a different weapon for 1/3 attacks.
3) the lack of features tied to weapons means a greater% of the monk's damage comes from unarmed attacks. If they had access to dueling for example, their unarmed attacks represent a smaller share of their damage. if they had twf, it might be worth it use a +1handaxe. I they had charger, instead of having poor accuracy on 50% of their damage, it might be 40% of their damage. Monk's feature to make MA dice usable for all weapons made a +1club a viable pick for them, thats no longer the case. Features matter
that is part of why its an issue. Many tables do not handpick items for players, And monk up to now, does not have access to the most magic items
you asked why this issue is worse for monks than other classes, I explained why.
You’re making an incorrect statement and turning the argument into an either/or, which is a logical fallacy. Paladin, ranger, barbarian and rogue all outclass monk, and have distinct roles which magic items can help them fill. Monk is bad at its role, and its role can be achieved by a fighter. It also lacks standard +X AC bonus or attack/damage bonus magic items which don’t require attunement, which means at higher levels it lags behind other martials even more.
As for your reference on how two people’s supposedly contradictory comments, who haven’t coordinated their arguments or even communicated outside of this thread, they don’t even contradict each other. I was referring to named magic items, not carbon copy +X items. You are unlikely to see two flame tongues in a game. You’ve also revealed the problem in your own argument - ‘could’ be given in any campaign. Monk has a half-dozen good magic items and you’re calling that sufficient. How many does fighter have? How many more variations of armour and weapons does a fighter have access to that could be magical? It’s much, much, more. Moreover, many magic items that are good for monk - especially the ones that you mentioned in the other thread - are good for monk because they are incredibly strong anyway, with the exception of the monk-focused dragonhide belt. Gloves of soul catching, blood fury tattoo.. these are items you will most likely never see in a campaign, because they boost the power of a character so much they outshine everyone else. Gwar1 even says ‘they might not be very rare’.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Isn't that called Flurry of Blows? Are you just asking for the option to do Flurry for free?
Except it doesn't. A monk can use a +3 bow, a +3 shortsword (in 5e), a +3 quarterstaff, a +3 dagger, a +3 spear etc... and gain just as much from it as a ranger or a paladin (+3 bonus on 2 attack per round). In 5e this is even supported by the monk getting to use their MA die for the damage roll so a monk would do MORE damage with a +3 dagger than any other class.
I agree they have messed this up in 5eR which is why I put on the survey that they need to give back MA die to monk weapons and give weapon masteries to unarmed strikes.
If the party is rolling in +X weapons why in the world wouldn't they give one to the monk?
I think this speaks to a deeper design flaw that exists many places in 5e but resonates the most with monk and sorcerer.
Adventuring days tend to be just as long at level 1 as they are at level 20. You have roughly the same amount of encounters and the same amount of rounds to actually take an action. Those values stay fixed as your resources go up, and so this spectrum ranges from "can barely do anything" to "have more points than I have actions to spend them."
It would make a lot more sense to flatten this line and scale the power of the stuff you can do rather than just the number of times you can do it. Or at least at higher levels have "upgraded" versions of the abilities that cost more ki. Being able to add more attacks to FOB, for example, could help a lot with the problem of monk damage basically plateauing after the first 10 levels.
One way we have handled this in my games is by just making Step of the Wind free. There is still significant opportunity cost in giving up your bonus action, and it just feels like something monks should be able to do. This ability is already poachable through multiclass by taking rogue, so it doesn't affect things there. We've really liked this change.
I don't think Stunning Strike is much of a problem honestly. It's high risk/high reward due to its high failure rate, and as others have pointed out plenty of other classes can do this kind of thing. If anything, I'd like to see its options expanded to be able to target other saves to produce other status effects.
Also I feel like I should point out that post-Tasha's, all monks can use martial weapons so almost all of those are on the table as magic item options. Monk is intended to be a weapon using class that uses their unarmed strikes as a supplement to their weapon attacks, not as a replacement for them.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Edit seems broken at the moment. I just realized what forum I'm in, so please disregard any of the things that don't apply to the OD&D monk as we know it so far.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
That’s because the features are bad by comparison to each other. Imagine I give you a dollar and you can buy anything from my store. In my store I have 4 items. Each item cost 1 dollar. One is a wheel you can spin and if it lands on the correct spot you get a five course meal drinks included. The odds vary day to day and you don’t know them until after you spin. I have sandwich with water for sale. I have a protein bar for sale. Finally there snickers mini. You can buy any of these for the 1 dollar. Which one seems like it is worth your dollar?
Not compared to the five course meal. Also the analogy isn’t a perfect match since you very well could spend a ki point on FoB and miss one of the attacks. You already get one BA attack without spending the ki point. Also you could PD and still get hit or not get attacked. Value for cost stunning strike is simply leagues above the other choices.
One simple fix for the monk would be to allow their features to work in light armor. Medium would be better, but I’m sure someone would have a brain aneurysm if I pushed too hard to give them a medium armor option.
it used to be free . I think it should be . maybe add a ki cost to unlock more attacks or augment the attack in some way.
It use to be flurry of misses when it was free. Let’s not leave out the details. Making FoB free while leaving PD and SotW having the same cost as Stunning Strike breaks the Monk even more. It puts you in a position were it looks like your job is to keep punching and using stunning strike defense be dayumed.
-Step of the Wind options should be free to use. Rogue doesn't have to "pay" for them- why should Monk? Spending your Bonus Action is cost enough.
-Levels 1-4, Monks should have 1 attack on Action plus Bonus Action attack. Levels 5-10, they should have Extra Attack on Action plus Bonus Action attack. Level 11+, they still have Extra Attack, but Bonus Action attack should be 2 attacks.
-Flurry of Blows should be basically like the Fighter's Action Surge, only the Monk could use it more often by spending Discipline/Ki. It would be like an extra attack Action added onto the turn. SO: Levels 1-4, Monk has 2 possible attacks/turn + option to get 2 more w FoB. Levels 5-10, 3 possible attacks per turn + option for 2 FoB attacks. Levels 11+, 4 possible attacks + option for 2 FoB attacks.
- Change Unarmored Defense to Dex modifier + 10 + Proficiency Bonus. I think this would help take some of the pressure off of having to build up multiple Ability Scores.
-Patient Defense should be Discipline/Ki free. You're already giving up your bonus action attack or other BA options. Why should you have to "pay" twice for it?
-Change Deflect Missiles to Deflect Attack, so it can be used to mitigate melee damage as well. Perhaps have an option to spend a Ki to knock melee opponents prone if all the damage is blocked (similar to catching/throwing the missile).
-Stunning Strike: limit it to once per short rest, but it just automatically works. No saving throw.
Those are the major points I'd change. By eliminating Ki costs for Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, and Stunning Strike, there should be enough Ki to go around for Flurry of Blows, Deflect Attacks, and for subclass options. Changing Unarmored Defense to use only Dex mod and making Stunning Strike have no saving throw makes the Monk a Dexterity class- Wisdom would be no longer a must have.
That's not a sound analysis of deal value.
When dealing with the value of a thing that isn't 100% sure to happen/pay-off, people often forget that its value is mitigated by its probability of happening, which as you said is unknown. If the probability is less than 1/X, where X is the numeric value of the meal if you paid for it .. then yes, the $1 sandwich is a better value (multiply the value of it's success by the probability of it happening). Kind of like winning the lottery: you don't buy a ticket because it's a good value (it's not: the pay off times the probability is always less than the cost of the ticket ... often MUCH less), you buy just in case it might pay off. But it's a horribly bad idea to spend your rent, utility, debt payment, or food budget on lottery tickets. Sure, it'll all be ok if it pays off... but the probability of that is low enough that it's a rather poor analysis to say that it's a good deal. If you don't know, or can't know, the probability? It's prudent to assume a low probability of pay-off.
There's also whether or not you want to gamble for your meal (or rent): a guaranteed sandwich wont let you starve to death, even if it's not completely filling and satisfying.
((X -1) / X) ^ 4 (the probability of 4 successive failures) might end up being some level of rarity, but it's still possible that you would waste all $4 and not eat that day at all.
For my first dollar, I would almost definitely go for the sandwich .. which I can always save for later if my second dollar on the full meal manages to score.
Don't steal my rogue shit!
Rogues don't get extra movement for free. Not sure where you get that, or I seem to have missed the memo while playing them.
Step of the wind for free. More discipline points.
More options to spend those points on.
Don't give them that half assed "once per day if you expend this fancy NEW resource that really only has one use to refill your other resource" bs.
just give them more slots and more fun things to do with them.
I mean what about that distant fist thing in shows where they punch the air and can hit a target at a distance? Or better yet when they can punch THROUGH something or someone to hit something behind that thing instead?
Those would make some on theme kick ass new abilities.
Also rather than just stun, we need a good "fall prone" option. Because trust me, some kicks and punches will drop you.
OOH!!! martial artists can also take on multiple targets maybe so points to reflect an attack on you to a third target (other than you or the person attacking). Must be done before the attack is rolled, and it gives advantage to that roll, because having your enemies attack your enemies is such a sweet thing to reward with advantage...
Rogues get "free” movement. It’s an action economy thing; they have much less competition for their bonus action than a monk, for instance, and so dashing with it pays off a lot more.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.