If they have to be casters (which I don't think they have to), they would be full casters.

Quote from Sysane >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

 Ah, that uses spells as psionic powers. That’s a non-starter for me. Thanks anyway.

 I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Did you look at the sciences mechanic? Its exactly what you described you're  doing with your channel divinity feature. 

 The mechanic is fine, the fact that their powers are off the rack spells is not fine at all for me. Psionics=/=Spells. 

Quote from IamSposta >>

 The mechanic is fine, the fact that their powers are off the rack spells is not fine at all for me. Psionics=/=Spells. 

 Thats fair. I'm in the boat of if a spell effect mirrors the psionic effect you're going for, use the spell. Reskin it with a point cost or concentration check or whatever, but have no problem with referencing the spell or repeating its effect text.   

what what do you mean "their powers are off the rack"?

Quote from Bunsenburner03 >>

what what do you mean "their powers are off the rack"?

 Pretty sure he means power effects are using the spell descriptions and not unique to themselves. 

What Sposta is objecting to, Bunsen, is the idea that a psionic character that is, as an example, using their powers to attempt to read the thoughts of the creatures around itself would simply cast Detect Thoughts.  However it fuels the casting, whatever alternate system or class feature or whatever-it-is that gives the psychic character their ability to do so, the end result is "I cast Detect Thoughts."  Sposta does not want this, and wants all psionic powers/talents/disciplines/whatevers to be their own unique abilities that do not replicate or mimic spells, and which cannot interact with the spell system.  Psychic powers would be immune to detection, dispellation, countering, or anything else that targets a "spell", because they would not be spells.

There is a precisely zero percent chance of Wizards going this route, but it's what a lot of folks want from their psychic characters.

Yurei, 

You are about 99% correct. If a Psion “casts Detect Thoughts” then they might as well not even bother. One minor caveat, I also think they should errata those spells so that they would interact with Psionics. I completely understand and enthusiastically agree that the game has to stay balanced. I have 10000% no problem with Psionics being “Magic,” just as long as they don’t “cast spells.” 

Quote from Sysane >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

 The mechanic is fine, the fact that their powers are off the rack spells is not fine at all for me. Psionics=/=Spells. 

 Thats fair. I'm in the boat of if a spell effect mirrors the psionic effect you're going for, use the spell. Reskin it with a point cost or concentration check or whatever, but have no problem with referencing the spell or repeating its effect text.   

 That’s the thing though, I don’t want Psionic powers that mirror the spells. A bajillian psionic reskins of spells my Bard or Warlock or Cleric can already cast is booooring. And pointless. I don’t want a Psychokinetic character that can “not cast” Catapult, and Levitate, and Bigby's Hand, and Telekinesis, and Armor of Agathys, and Tenser’s Floating Disk, and Mage Armor, and Shield, and Hold Person, and Hold Monster, and on and on and on....

I want a Psychokinetic power that my character could “activate/turn on/whatever” X times per rest, and would last for Y rounds so the character could use that power as an action every turn until they drop the power or lose Concentration. A Psychokinetic power that starts out as a baby version of a bunch of those spells all combined, but that grows and evolves as the character goes up in Psion level. As the character levels up their Psion class, that power would gradually be able to:

• lift more weight
• lift more targets/objects
• move it/them faster
• throw it/them further
• stay activated longer
• be able to activate it more often
• etc.

We already have.5 full casters, a full caster equivalent (Warlock), two half casters, two 1/3 casters, a 1/3 caster equivalent (Wot4e Monk) and whatever the heck the Artificer turned into (3/5 caster???). The last thing we need is more of the same. If that’s all they are going to give us then they should just stop and put their effort into revamping the PHB a bit, maybe a 5.1e, anything more interesting and productive than the same cr@p0l@ they have already used to fill a dozen sourcebooks.

So you want psion's powers to work as if under a effect similar to the sorcerer's Subtle Spell metamagic ability?  No material, somatic, or verbal components when producing the effect. 

I agree with getting rid of the material and verbal, but think they'd need to leave a somatic/visual effect for balance reasons. 3.5 psionic powers had a display mechanic that were either auditory, material, mental, olfactory, or visual (or any combination) for this very reason. Granted, there was also a check a character could make to suppress these. Maybe something similar could be worked out for 5e.   

Quote from Sysane >>

So you want psion's powers to work as if under a effect similar to the sorcerer's Subtle Spell metamagic ability?  No material, somatic, or verbal components when producing the effect. 

I agree with getting rid of the material and verbal, but think they'd need to leave a somatic/visual effect for balance reasons. 3.5 psionic powers had a display mechanic that were either auditory, material, mental, olfactory, or visual (or any combination) for this very reason. Granted, there was also a check a character could make to suppress these. Maybe something similar could be worked out for 5e.   

 I never said that. If they need to touch their temples, or wriggle their noses, snap their fingers, or fart super loud or whatever to maintain game balance then that’s fine.

If they expend the exact same resource that every other character in D&D expends (spell slots) to do things from the exact same list of stuff that every other character has access to (the spell list) then they are not a Psion, they’re just another “caster.” *yawns* 🤭 If they’re gonna just give us another caster then call it a caster. If they’re gonna call it a Psion, then don’t give us just another caster.

If you spend six and a half years putting a dozen MacDonalds cheeseburgers on the table, and then you come along and tell me you’re gonna put something “different” in front of me, when I open that wrapper I better not find another mudda-fekkin’ gorram MacDonalds cheeseburger inside or I’ma be pissed.

Quote from IamSposta >>

 That’s the thing though, I don’t want Psionic powers that mirror the spells. A bajillian psionic reskins of spells my Bard or Warlock or Cleric can already cast is booooring. And pointless. I don’t want a Psychokinetic character that can “not cast” Catapult, and Levitate, and Bigby's Hand, and Telekinesis, and Armor of Agathys, and Tenser’s Floating Disk, and Mage Armor, and Shield, and Hold Person, and Hold Monster, and on and on and on....

I want a Psychokinetic power that my character could “activate/turn on/whatever” X times per rest, and would last for Y rounds so the character could use that power as an action every turn until they drop the power or lose Concentration. A Psychokineticpower that starts out as a baby version of a bunch of those spells all combined, but that grows and evolves as the character goes up in Psion level. As the character levels up their Psion class, that power would gradually be able to:

• lift more weight
• lift more targets/objects
• move it/them faster
• throw it/them further
• stay activated longer
• be able to activate it more often
• etc.

We already have.5 full casters, a full caster equivalent (Warlock), two half casters, two 1/3 casters, a 1/3 caster equivalent (Wot4e Monk) and whatever the heck the Artificer turned into (3/5 caster???). The last thing we need is more of the same. If that’s all they are going to give us then they should just stop and put their effort into revamping the PHB a bit, maybe a 5.1e, anything more interesting and productive than the same cr@p0l@ they have already used to fill a dozen sourcebooks.

These are good concepts, but honestly don't see WotC going that route. Like you said, these are just several different spells put into one ability. All that will do is make every psychokineticist character a carbon copy of each other with little room for customization. With smaller powers you're able have characters with a greater variety of psionic abilities.  The options to keep the power activated longer or effect additional targets sounds like metamagic. Could see a similar psionic version worked in with a wider range of options.  

Quote from Sysane >>

These are good concepts, but honestly don't see WotC going that route. Like you said, these are just several different spells put into one ability. All that will do is make every psychokineticist character a carbon copy of each other with little room for customization. With smaller powers you're able have characters greater variety of psionic abilities.  The options to keep the power activated longer or effect additional targets sounds like metamagic. Could see similar psionic version work in with wider range of options.  

 There are traditionally 6 Psionic Disciplines. Each of those disciplines could/should have 6ish (5-7) powers that each encompass a similar breadth of scope as the power I described above.

My idea is that a Psionicist (“full not-a-caster”) would pick a discipline to devote themselves to as a subclass. They would get to choose one power from their discipline’s list at first level. By level 20 they would have chosen maybe 5 total powers, 3 from their own disciple, and 2 others from whichever discipline(s) they like. Add to each discipline about 8ish minor powers that could function a lot like Eldritch Invocations. By level 20 they would get about 7ish of those, 4 from their own discipline and 3 from whichever. That’s a whackton of potential combos that I think would/should satisfy more players than I think it would alienate/upset. (it’s after 1 am here so I will leave it to someone less tired than myself to calculate the number of possible permutations.)

Sysane, you wrote: “The options to keep the power activated longer or effect additional targets sounds like metamagic.” Going by that logic, then when a spell has that At Higher Levels part at the bottom should sound like “Metamagic” too? Or how Cantrips automatically scale with character level?

Better yet, when a Barbarian gets Relentless Rage at 11th and Persistent Rage at 15th, is that “Metamagic” too? When a Cleric gets their 2nd Channel Divinity/rest at 6th level, is that also “Metamagic?” Or when a Bard’s Bardic Inspiration die goes from a d6 to a d8 at 5th level?? Or whenever a Rogue’s Sneak Attack gains another die, or the Artificer can suddenly make 1 more Infused Item than they could a level earlier, when the Fighter’s Extra Attacks start stacking up, or every time the Monk adds an extra 5-feet of Unarmored Movement, the Druid’s Wild Shape Improvements at 4th and 8th levels.... Are those all “Metamagic?!?”

That’s what I’m talking about. Not a list of “spells-but-not-spells,” but an entire system of class/subclass features instead of spells. Ones where the player literally gets to choose which Psionic Powers (class/subclass features) they get, not as spells from some dusty old book, or by some god’s leave, but as innate psychic abilities. Like taking all of the various [insert class X here] features and all of their subclass’ features, put them in a table, and letting the player choose which ones they want at what level.

I know, I know... I can already hear half of the internet gearing up to yell-tell me how ridiculous my idea is and how stupid/crazy I am for thinking such things, but just think about it for a minute. If all of their powers scaled in such a way that they would not be overpowered compared to other 1st-level abilities when the Psion is 1st-level, but hey would all still be (*approximately) as equally balanced at Nth-level, then what would be the problem?

(*Let’s face it, nothing is 100% perfectly balanced or nobody would have anything to complain about, myself included. Expecting PERFECT balance is both futile and unrealistic. We just need it to fall somewhere in the middle of the rest of the 5e classes and we’ll be okay.)

Sposta, I get what your going for. You want psionic self scaling abilities baked into the class like the other non-caster/half-caster class features and not simply a pick from a spell list that emulate psionic abilities.  Its a worthwhile concept and would like to see what you come up with.

Personally, I prefer my psionic characters to have a bit more versatility and a  larger choice of options in what they can do. A spell, power, discipline, or whatever you want to call it "list", grants more of this. If I want a character with a little bit of TK I'd prefer the choice of taking the lesser end of TK abilities and not pigeonholed into also taking the higher end ones when I'd rather be doing something non-TK related at those levels than affect additional targets, move heavier objects, or whatever else TK. While what you're proposing offers some flexibility into other disciplines its not as much as picking from a granular list of abilities of varying strength. Actually wouldn't mind seeing prerequisite trees for obtaining higher levels psionics like there were in 2e (never going to happen though). I get you don't like spells lists, but historically thats how psionics have worked since 2e all the way to 3.5 (I dipped into 4e for only second and don't recall how it worked in that edition). 

I agree that sorcerer metamagic kind of stole the psion's thunder and should have been their schtick from the get go. Its kind of why I want a similar ability for them in 5e. Maybe a list of disciplines specific boosts tied to discipline subclasses (sort like what the mystic was going for). 

Anyhow, again I'd like to see what you put together. Maybe I'll change my view and call BS on what I thought I wanted for 5e psionics.    

Quote from IamSposta >>

Quote from Sysane >>

These are good concepts, but honestly don't see WotC going that route. Like you said, these are just several different spells put into one ability. All that will do is make every psychokineticist character a carbon copy of each other with little room for customization. With smaller powers you're able have characters greater variety of psionic abilities.  The options to keep the power activated longer or effect additional targets sounds like metamagic. Could see similar psionic version work in with wider range of options.  

 There are traditionally 6 Psionic Disciplines. Each of those disciplines could/should have 6ish (5-7) powers that each encompass a similar breadth of scope as the power I described above.

My idea is that a Psionicist (“full not-a-caster”) would pick a discipline to devote themselves to as a subclass. They would get to choose one power from their discipline’s list at first level. By level 20 they would have chosen maybe 5 total powers, 3 from their own disciple, and 2 others from whichever discipline(s) they like. Add to each discipline about 8ish minor powers that could function a lot like Eldritch Invocations. By level 20 they would get about 7ish of those, 4 from their own discipline and 3 from whichever. That’s a whackton of potential combos that I think would/should satisfy more players than I think it would alienate/upset. (it’s after 1 am here so I will leave it to someone less tired than myself to calculate the number of possible permutations.)

Sysane, you wrote: “The options to keep the power activated longer or effect additional targets sounds like metamagic.” Going by that logic, then when a spell has that At Higher Levels part at the bottom should sound like “Metamagic” too? Or how Cantrips automatically scale with character level?

Better yet, when a Barbarian gets Relentless Rage at 11th and Persistent Rage at 15th, is that “Metamagic” too? When a Cleric gets their 2nd Channel Divinity/rest at 6th level, is that also “Metamagic?” Or when a Bard’s Bardic Inspiration die goes from a d6 to a d8 at 5th level?? Or whenever a Rogue’s Sneak Attack gains another die, or the Artificer can suddenly make 1 more Infused Item than they could a level earlier, when the Fighter’s Extra Attacks start stacking up, or every time the Monk adds an extra 5-feet of Unarmored Movement, the Druid’s Wild Shape Improvements at 4th and 8th levels.... Are those all “Metamagic?!?”

That’s what I’m talking about. Not a list of “spells-but-not-spells,” but an entire system of class/subclass features instead of spells. Ones where the player literally gets to choose which Psionic Powers (class/subclass features) they get, not as spells from some dusty old book, or by some god’s leave, but as innate psychic abilities. Like taking all of the various [insert class X here] features and all of their subclass’ features, put them in a table, and letting the player choose which ones they want at what level.

I know, I know... I can already hear half of the internet gearing up to yell-tell me how ridiculous my idea is and how stupid/crazy I am for thinking such things, but just think about it for a minute. If all of their powers scaled in such a way that they would not be overpowered compared to other 1st-level abilities when the Psion is 1st-level, but hey would all still be (*approximately) as equally balanced at Nth-level, then what would be the problem?

(*Let’s face it, nothing is 100% perfectly balanced or nobody would have anything to complain about, myself included. Expecting PERFECT balance is both futile and unrealistic. We just need it to fall somewhere in the middle of the rest of the 5e classes and we’ll be okay.)

PS- Nobody in D&D had ever even heard of Metamagic until it’s debut with the arrival of D&D 3rd Edition only 20 years ago. Metapsionics however, was one of the original 6 disciplines.... I remember when 3e hit bookshelves and I cracked open my brand new PHB I was shocked to see that they had included a Sorcerer to rival the Wizard who had previously been D&D’s only Arcane spellcaster. I was amazed to see that origional Sorcerer also used Sorcery Points exclusively instead of spell slots because “that’s how the Psionicist used to work” (only they used to be called Psi Points) when I played them way back in the '80s&’90s. My jaw hit the table at the dinner my buddy and I were sitting in when I saw that WotC had even mined TSR’s original Psionicist’s unique ability of Metapsionics, reskinned it, and gave it to not only Sorcerers, but that Wizards got an even better version.

I say what the heck, give that sweet mettawhatever-you-wanna-call-it love back to it’s original owner, the Psionicist.

 I agree with you 100%.

Quote from Sysane >>

Sposta, I get what your going for. You want psionic self scaling abilities baked into the class like the other non-caster/half-caster class features and not simply a pick from a spell list that emulate psionic abilities.  Its a worthwhile concept and would like to see what you come up with.

Thank you.  

Quote from Sysane >>

...Actually wouldn't mind seeing prerequisite trees for obtaining higher levels psionics like there were in 2e (never going to happen though). I get you don't like spells lists, but historically thats how psionics have worked since 2e all the way to 3.5 (I dipped into 4e for only second and don't recall how it worked in that edition). 

 I am well aware of these facts. In D&D I cut my teeth in way back in 2e before moving on to AD&D in the ‘90s. Played a Psionicist then too, and in 3/3.5 (I skipped 4e entirely). Do you remember how broken and complicated Psionics was back then?!? Woofta! Wanna avoid that hot mess.

To be clear though, I have absolutely no problem with spell lists... for Spellcasrers....

Quote from Sysane >>

...Maybe a list of disciplines specific boosts tied to discipline subclasses (sort like what the mystic was going for).

 Thy Mystic was a hot mess too. There were too many moving parts that were all attached to each other but didn’t work together like the whole focus thing. Unfortunately it was a good idea poorly executed.

Quote from Sysane >>

Anyhow, again I'd like to see what you put together. Maybe I'll change my view and call BS on *what I thought I wanted for 5e psionics. 

 When I get it a little further developed I’ll be happy to share a googledoc link PDF if you pm me with an email address. I would love to read your feedback.

*When WotC asked what people wanted for psionics, people said they want it to work like Spellcasting. I get that. But like Henry Ford supposedly said: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” 

Spellcasting as Psionics is just another horse, and it’s not even any faster...

Thanks for the support, Levi!

Quote from IamSposta >>

 When I get it a little further developed I’ll be happy to share a googledoc link. I would love to read your feedback.

 

 Definitely. I've played and DM'd psionic characters since 2e through 3.5. Its my preferred character option. Would love to give some input.

Quote from Sysane >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

 When I get it a little further developed I’ll be happy to share a googledoc link. I would love to read your feedback.

 

 Definitely. I've played and DM'd psionic characters since 2e through 3.5. Its my preferred character option. Would love to give some input.

 Cool! Fair warning though, it’ll be a little bit yet. I got multiple jobs, a family, a campaign to DM, and two more that I play in.

Quote from IamSposta >>

Thanks for the support, Levi!

 No problem, you seem to be the only one who agrees with me that Psionics doesn't have to be spellcasting to be balanced.

It seems like people are so against having a new system that they come up with bull crap reasons for why it wouldn't work.

Quote from LeviRocks >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

Thanks for the support, Levi!

 No problem, you seem to be the only one who agrees with me that Psionics doesn't have to be spellcasting to be balanced.

It seems like people are so against having a new system that they come up with bull crap reasons for why it wouldn't work.

Quote from IamSposta >>

Like Henry Ford supposedly said: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” 

Spellcasting as Psionics is just another horse, and it’s not even any faster...