This is a topic that seems to be one of the most contested in multiple areas, and so I would like to make a thread to discuss it, and hopefully solve the problem once and for all.

Sure.  I'll be nice and let you have your randomly off-topic new thread.  More for the sake of people who actually care about the junky new UA subclasses, though.  That said...


It's amazing how thoroughly the shoe has switched foots, Bunsen.  Back when the Artificer was in testing, I argued - unsuccessfully unfortunately, to the very great detriment of the Artificer class - that alchemy was about far more than merely the brewing and fermentation of potions.  That 'Alchemy' encompassed a far broader range of things than simply mixing together fizzy drinkables to produce Wild Chemistry effects a'la frizzy-haired, buggy-goggled cartoon "scientists".  But because people held a deep attachment to that particular odious archetype, I was shouted down and informed that I could "just homebrew whatever you wanted when it comes out!"

And now, Bunsen, you're facing the idea of future psychic/psionic subclasses being closely tied to the 'Jean Grey' classic mentalist, focusing on the power and manipulation of the mind.  But because you don't care for that particular archetype, you're trying to argue that psychic abilities encompass every possible powerset, potentially derived from all six primary stattributes, because you don't want Jean Greys in your D&D and you're hoping that if you argue loud enough, they'll turn "psionics" into "just magic, but with a different name" instead.

How delightful the inversion is.  I happen to agree that mentalism and psychic abilities go beyond telepathy, TK, and direct mind manipulation.  But I also very much enjoy the Master Mentalist archetype, the telekinetic powerhouse or the Charles Xavier mind-master, and in all such cases these powers derive from the strength and force of one's mind.  Constitution need not apply.  Strength and Dexterity are right the hell out.  Wisdom is obsolete as a concept as it is, and Charisma is already overloaded.

Bring on the Intelligence-based classes/subclasses.  Bring on the classic mentalism.  By all means add things like mediums, astral projectors, psychometry, and other abilities, but psionics don't need to be Con-based demon summoners.  And I'll admit, I'm going to take a certain amount of satisfaction in people who want psionics to have nothing to do whatsoever with actual mental abilities wailing and gnashing their teeth.

Y'all dun wrecked my Alchemist, Bunsen and company.  I'll have my psionic characters with a healthy serving of Intelligence-driven psychic abilities as recompense, please.

While I agree with Yurei on about 95% of what he just said (about both the Artificer and the idea of Psionics) I do have to state a couple of things for the record:

1. Back in the day different Psionic abilities were actually tied to each of the 6 Abilities. So the idea is not as radical as one might believe.
2. The idea of Psionics being physically draining makes sense. Haven’t you ever seen Misses Summers (Jean Grey for those who aren’t Marvel nerds) exhausted and sweaty with exertion after a battle? To that end Constitution could potentially be seen as a factor in maintaining Psionic abilities.
3. There already exists a mechanic in 5e for using Constitution to “keep it up” magically. That would be Concentration.
4. While I would recommend using the same (or similar mechanic) as Concentration for Psionic abilities I do not believe in any way shape or form that a Psionicist should draw their abilities from the gorram spell list, nor do I believe they should have “Spell Slots” as the resource expended to activate their abilities. I have no problems with Psionics being “Magic” but Psionic Powers are not spells.

Yurei I don't know why you have made me into a strawman to pin the blame on the larger community but for the love of god could you listen to me for once. I. DID. NOT. WANT. ALCHEMIST. TO. BE. ONLY. A. POTIONS. SLINGER. I. DID. NOT. LIKE. THE. HOMONCULUS. BECAUSE. IT. FELT. LIKE. IT. WAS. ONLY. THERE. TO. FILL. A. QUOTA. OF. HAVING. A. "PET". THAT. EVERY. ARTIFICER. SUBCLASS. SEEMED. TO. HAVE.

And yet that's exactly what happened.

So yeah.  "Psionics", if we're using that word, is the science/art/discipline of utilizing the power of an awakened mind to shape the world or touch/rearrange the minds of others.  It is represented in D&D, currently, through psychic-flavored spells and the encouraging of DMs and players both to be mindful of their spell lists when playing a 'psionic' character.  Whether that should be the extent of how psychic abilities works in D&D, I do not know.  But that's how they're represented now.

And I very much am of the opinion that "Psychic" characters should be generally in line with the popular perception of psychic abilities IRL, i.e. psychokinesis, telepathy/empathy, psychometry, astral projection, remote perception, spirit medium-ism, and similar abilities.  Because it has been well established that D&D is a game about narrowly defined, strictly enforced character archetropes and any attempt to breach or broaden those archetropes meets with fierce resistance from adherents of those archetropes.  Those who hate the idea of the Artificer being an almost completely nonfuctional Turbo Spazz Nerd that's basically a bad Rick send-up even if you're not using the Rick and Morty book were told quite firmly to shut their gobs, Use Their Imagination(TM), and just homebrew stuff if they didn't like it.

Well, as a deep and ardent fan of the more traditional depictions of psychic abilities, a fan of psychopunk, and someone who's been loving most every bit of the mind and mentalism-focused UA releases thus far?  "Psionics" can be traditional mind powers all they like.  I'm cool with that.

As someone most likely newer to D&D than you 3, here is my opinion as someone who has only played 5e, and watched only recent movies and TV shows with these themes.

So, I do agree that Psionics in 5e should be mainly Intelligence based. I am not against the idea of having the other 5 ability scores be used in psionics in some way. If they are going to make a psionic barbarian, I imagine their psionic abilities would be Constitution based. The Aberrant Mind Sorcerer uses Charisma for their psionics. A Psion/Mystic should be Intelligence based, obviously, but subclasses of other classes are fine to use other ability scores for psionics if it makes sense.

I haven't decided if psionics should be classified as magic or not. My gut says no, my mind says yes. I don't think anyone can convince me either way, but either way, when Mystic or Psions are introduced to 5e, I know how it is done won't feel right in some way. I know this is an impossible problem, but it is just how I feel.

Psionics should not be spell-based. I am not saying that spells cannot be used to demonstrate psionic abilities, or that psionic sorcerer, warlock, and wizard subclasses shouldn't exist. I am saying that if a Psion class comes out, they better not have it be a spellcaster or use the spell slot system, or I will be complaining about it. I want a new system for psionics. I don't care if it is hard. I don't care if it is underused and complicated. I will guarantee that I will be happy and use it if they come out with a new system. 

The mystic ability to use hit points as psi points is something I would like to see in psionics. Not the same way incorporated in the Mystic UA, but some other way would be really nice.

Yurei, almost every superpower is based on psionic abilities. Pyrokinesis is an incredibly common power, and it is also a classic psychic thing. It is not "traditional" to represent psychic powers this way, it is "pandering to the X-men crowd".

Heh.  5e is my first TTRRPG actually, Levi.  I've learned a few systems since, but 5e (via Critical Role) was the first time I really dug into TTRPGs.  I have, however, been doing freewheeling, no-system freeform written roleplaying for well north of twenty years by this stage.  Most of that is useless for 5e save that I got all my edgelord troperiffic Bad Character Ideas out years ago, but one thing it did do for me was give me a strong sense of character cohesion and thematics.  There's differences between "overspecialized hyper-niche, highly limited", "thematically cohesive and well-built, elegant design", and "scattered, unfocused mess, no plan."

The Alchemist artificer that Bunsen and others argued for and eventually got is an example of the first (and no, I'm never really going to forgive them for utterly destroying the Alchemist, especially since DDB's staff has informed me I'm not allowed to fix it.  Even for my own use).

"Psionics" which are "any superpower I feel like giving my character" and driven by whatever the player decides is most chocolate-flavored that day is an example of the last.

Yes, other classes can and honestly should have variations on a psychic/psionic theme for at least one of their subclasses.  Those subclasses can be driven differently because they're expressing psychic power/potential in different ways.  I don't really give a damn about the Dark Sun setting or the old Mystic - or even the UA Mystic, which came and went before I started playing and thus I'm unfamiliar with it.  What I am familiar with is the very strong thematic cohesion of "Psychic Powers" present in the overall nerdcultural zeitgeist.  Classic mentalists, the "Jean Grey" mind-masters that Bunsen hates, are one expression of it.  Mob Psycho's Mob and One Punch Man's Tatsumaki are other expressions of similar types, and both are ideals I strongly prefer over the 'Jean Grey'.  Carrie is another one, as is whoever that crazy psycho was from Elfen Leid, and let us not forget Akira.  However much we might want to.

To say nothing of less violent, over-the-top media.  Kilgrave in Jessica Jones, for example.  Other examples that escape me because I don't watch a ton of traditional media.  Nevertheless, "psionic" abilities all generally fall into the same overall tone.  Even those who express wildly different base capabilities tend to express it from a position of supreme will or indomitable emotion - power of the mind rather than the flesh, even if it affects the flesh to an extent.  Power of the spirit is the domain of the monk or the Divine casters, power of the arcane is of course all the arcane casters, and Western Super Hero Comics power is its own kettle of fish nobody should be talking about.  Again, I say this: clenching your buttcheeks hard enough to rip open the spacetime continuum and summon forth Mepoostopitplease, Lord of Inconveniently Involuntary Bowel Movements, has absolutely nothing to do with psychic power.

Why anyone would think it should is beyond me.

I don't think most superpowers can fall under "psionic". Thor, super strength and lightning, not psionic. Iron Man, inventive genius and super technology (I know, not born with superpowers, but that really doesn't matter). The Flash, superspeed and lightning powers, not psionic. Hulk, not psionic. X-Men, sure most of these can fall under psionics, but I think superpowers being represented by psychic or psionic abilities are clearly the minority in the Marvel and DC Universes.

Quote from LeviRocks >>

I don't think most superpowers can fall under "psionic". Thor, super strength and lightning, not psionic. Iron Man, inventive genius and super technology (I know, not born with superpowers, but that really doesn't matter). The Flash, superspeed and lightning powers, not psionic. Hulk, not psionic. X-Men, sure most of these can fall under psionics, but I think superpowers being represented by psychic or psionic abilities are clearly the minority in the Marvel and DC Universes.

Thor’s powers are expressly magical. However one could argue that The Flash and The Incredible Hulk are types of Psions. In the Warhammer 40,000 universe there is a Psychis Discipline called Biomancy that is entirely about manifesting psychic powers physically.

While characters like Jean Grey, Professor Xavier, and Superboy are expressly psychic there are a plethora of other franchises that could influence our concepts of psychic powers such as the movies Push, Ghost and Next; characters from non-Marvel/DC comics such as the bellboy franchise. One could even argue that some of the “channeling moments” depicted in The Witcher franchise are a form of psionic manifestation.

My point is that while I do believe that Psionics should be different than “Spellcasting,”  it could and should also lead to diversity in powers.

Yurei, 

Moving on from the Alchemist debate since it’s over and done with.... 

I have been playing D&D since 2e, I have even recently been perusing my 2e copy of The Complete Psionics Handbook. I do generally agree with your assessment that Psionics should not be Spellcasting. But I see no reason why Psions/Psionicists couldn’t do a vast variety of things. In 2e they could animate furniture, a Wizard couldn’t do that back then.

My point is that while agree with you on how the mechanics should be conceived, I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment of how limited the scope of Psionic powers should be or the limits on what the should encompass.

Yurei, I do not know where I implied I hated those kinds of psionics. But Psionics is, in dungeons and dragons, the ability for the mind to affect the world around it, and restricting this to the archetype of "vanilla psychic type" not only goes against previous interpretations of psionics in dungeons and dragons, it goes against the relatively open ended design that 5e has. A subclass of psion being devoted to these mental only stuff? Absolutely, and I have one in my psionicist homebrew class, but if that is the only interpretation of psionics allowed then it is a fundamental misunderstanding and misapplication of psionics.

What other stuff do you have in mind?

I liked the abilities the Mystic was able to use, which, while heavily mental focused at times, had some things like the elemental manipulations, as well as biokinesis that buffed you a bit. They felt varied, and it really felt like I could do a lot of different things with them, instead of it only being limited to a few simple ideas. I liked the ideas behind the mystic disciplines, I wish that they had focused on improving that instead of abandoning it entirely.

I am also homebrewing my own system for Psionics. I took inspiration from the 2e system. Then there were Talents (very minor powers), Sciences(major powers) and Devotions(mid-level powers). The Sciences and Devotions were divided into 6 Disciplines. Those were Psychokenises, Telepathy, Psychometabolism(physical augmentation), Psychoportation, Clairsentience(psychic divination), and Metapsionics. (In 3e Metapsionics was made more like the current Metamagic and the discipline was replaced with Metacreativity.)

For my homebrew I am using the same discipline system except I am making the sixth Discipline Psychopotentience(energy manipulation). Each of the six Disciplines has its own Subclass. 2/3 of their Powers must be chosen directly to from the Character’s chosen Discipline, the others could come from any discipline. Talents will work like Cantrips (and are not tied to Disciplines), Sciences will change name to Studies and work in a manner similar to Chanel Divinity powers, and Devotions will work like Eldritch Invocations. Metapsionics will work in a way similar to Metamagic.

I have found that I can keep everything very “psychic” thematically and still allow for almost every “superpoweresk” ability. I don’t see why you and Yurei can’t both get something satisfactory under the same system. If I could figure it a way to accomplish making them both definitively psychic and have an array of powers, why can’t WotC? (For that matter if I could work out a functional and simplistic system to give them spell-like abilities without “casting spells,” why the frag couldn’t gorram WotC figure it out?!?)

Oh,  I absolutely believe that psionics should include "psychic" thematic stuff, wholeheartedly. To do otherwise would be disgraceful. I just disagree that that is what it should only be. My class "casts spells" because it is easier and fits into the 5e design philosophy, but I understand the desire to create a personal psionics system as well.

Quote from Bunsenburner03 >>

Oh,  I absolutely believe that psionics should include "psychic" thematic stuff, wholeheartedly. To do otherwise would be disgraceful. I just disagree that that is what it should only be. My class "casts spells" because it is easier and fits into the 5e design philosophy, but I understand the desire to create a personal psionics system as well.

 If I wanted them to “cast spells” I would just use the Psionic Wizard. I am for the time being, but once I finish designing my Psionics system that Wizard will be just a psionic wizard, not a “Psionicist.”

Quote from IamSposta >>

Quote from Bunsenburner03 >>

Oh,  I absolutely believe that psionics should include "psychic" thematic stuff, wholeheartedly. To do otherwise would be disgraceful. I just disagree that that is what it should only be. My class "casts spells" because it is easier and fits into the 5e design philosophy, but I understand the desire to create a personal psionics system as well.

 If I wanted them to “cast spells” I would just use the Psionic Wizard. I am for the time being, but once I finish designing my Psionics system that Wizard will be just a psionic wizard, not a “Psionicist.”

 I know. I don't want the to say, "If you want it differently, homebrew it", because I don't want to have to homebrew a new system. They are experienced game designers, designing games are their job, make a new system for those who want it.

I agree, mystics and psions shouldn't use spells just because it is easier. 

Psionics should be a 5e rework of the 3e Psionics Handbook. That's about it.

I've never seen the 3e Psionics Handbook and I can already tell ya: no.

People are going to have to wrap their heads around the idea that Wizards is not willing to add additional systems bloat to the game.  The artificer is probably about as complexity-added and off the beaten path as they're willing to get.  You'll never get spellcasting without spell slots or an entirely new and distinct power system that can't be used with any other class ever.  That's too much extra cognitive load, especially when so many people out there are STILL telling Wizards "this game is sooo complicated!  I can't keep track of everything!"

Not gonna happen.  Any future psionic characters are going to be based on the standard 5e spellcasting system.  Possibly with janky spell slots a'la the warlock, probably with some sort of point system they can use for what would essentially be Psionic Metamagic, but nevertheless.  Spell slots.  Because that is the 5e Unified System of Metaphysical Bull****ery - the spell system.  If they were willing to change that for the Mystic/Psion/Whatever, they woulda done it for the artificer first.