It is off topic, but the issues brought up in this thread are part of why I think a 5.5 edition would be good for the game, even if it angers those that don't want to buy new books.
My hope is that when they ask for feedback for this UA, they'll hear the response saying "Metamagic Adept is a cool idea that makes me realize how badly the Sorcerer needs some support in terms of exclusive Metamagic options. It's the only thing the class has going for it but it never gets more exciting after the initial ability unlock at level 3."
I don't think Metamagic needs exclusive options. Sorcerers just need more Sorcery Points to give them breathing room to actually use them.
I kinda wish that at high levels they had more lower level slots. Something along the lines of 6 1st, 5 2nd, 5 3rd, 4 4th. Also, flesh out every Origin with an expanded spell list, a set of thematic spells that fit the Origin. The Clockwork Soul UA Origin has this. The others should all too.
The Class Feature Variants UA did absolutely nothing to address the problem with Sorcerers, and this UA does basically the same thing.
The purpose of UA is not to address a problem with a class. The fact that this UA did not attempt to address a problem with a class is appropriate and correct.
I guess you've never seen Class Feature Variants or Revised Ranger, then. You are correct on part of the second part, this UA did not attempt to address a problem with existing classes, which is kind of the problem. It opened up a can of worms without being prepared to deal with them.
As we know for certain from the Revised Ranger, we will never see a Revised class in this edition. The core of the classes will never be altered in this edition. The best we will see is the Class Feature Variant and apparently that still won't be enough. Truly fixing Sorcerer or Ranger would require a full rewrite. These Feats look to be a way to address Level Dipping, not fixing classes.
With regards to the Ranger, generally, I feel the CFV actually fixes all the issues with the base class. The special variant Beasts for the Beastmaster are a step in the right direction, but need more interaction to make them work. Also, more of them then just 2.
My hope is that when they ask for feedback for this UA, they'll hear the response saying "Metamagic Adept is a cool idea that makes me realize how badly the Sorcerer needs some support in terms of exclusive Metamagic options. It's the only thing the class has going for it but it never gets more exciting after the initial ability unlock at level 3."
I don't think Metamagic needs exclusive options. Sorcerers just need more Sorcery Points to give them breathing room to actually use them.
I kinda wish that at high levels they had more lower level slots. Something along the lines of 6 1st, 5 2nd, 5 3rd, 4 4th. Also, flesh out every Origin with an expanded spell list, a set of thematic spells that fit the Origin. The Clockwork Soul UA Origin has this. The others should all too.
Sorcerers need more than more sorcery points, but that would be a start. They also need more spells known (I agree it should probably be from subclasses), more versatility, and other changes, but that's neither here nor there.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The Class Feature Variants UA did absolutely nothing to address the problem with Sorcerers, and this UA does basically the same thing.
The purpose of UA is not to address a problem with a class. The fact that this UA did not attempt to address a problem with a class is appropriate and correct.
I guess you've never seen Class Feature Variants or Revised Ranger, then. You are correct on part of the second part, this UA did not attempt to address a problem with existing classes, which is kind of the problem. It opened up a can of worms without being prepared to deal with them.
As we know for certain from the Revised Ranger, we will never see a Revised class in this edition. The core of the classes will never be altered in this edition. The best we will see is the Class Feature Variant and apparently that still won't be enough. Truly fixing Sorcerer or Ranger would require a full rewrite. These Feats look to be a way to address Level Dipping, not fixing classes.
With regards to the Ranger, generally, I feel the CFV actually fixes all the issues with the base class. The special variant Beasts for the Beastmaster are a step in the right direction, but need more interaction to make them work. Also, more of them then just 2.
The ranger was fixed quite a bit by that UA, but it still needs a few changes. The sorcerer wasn't fixed at all by the CFV UA, and they should do something similar to the overhaul they did for the Ranger in that UA.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The Class Feature Variants UA did absolutely nothing to address the problem with Sorcerers, and this UA does basically the same thing.
The purpose of UA is not to address a problem with a class. The fact that this UA did not attempt to address a problem with a class is appropriate and correct.
I guess you've never seen Class Feature Variants or Revised Ranger, then. You are correct on part of the second part, this UA did not attempt to address a problem with existing classes, which is kind of the problem. It opened up a can of worms without being prepared to deal with them.
As we know for certain from the Revised Ranger, we will never see a Revised class in this edition. The core of the classes will never be altered in this edition. The best we will see is the Class Feature Variant and apparently that still won't be enough. Truly fixing Sorcerer or Ranger would require a full rewrite. These Feats look to be a way to address Level Dipping, not fixing classes.
With regards to the Ranger, generally, I feel the CFV actually fixes all the issues with the base class. The special variant Beasts for the Beastmaster are a step in the right direction, but need more interaction to make them work. Also, more of them then just 2.
Personally, I find the CFV to be great and will solve many issues, but you don't have to do much scrolling to find posts saying that it doesn't do enough to help the Sorcerer. I don't know what the end result will be for the CFV, but I would be willing to bet that there will still be lots of unhappy Sorcerer players out there.
The Class Feature Variants UA did absolutely nothing to address the problem with Sorcerers, and this UA does basically the same thing.
The purpose of UA is not to address a problem with a class. The fact that this UA did not attempt to address a problem with a class is appropriate and correct.
I guess you've never seen Class Feature Variants or Revised Ranger, then. You are correct on part of the second part, this UA did not attempt to address a problem with existing classes, which is kind of the problem. It opened up a can of worms without being prepared to deal with them.
As we know for certain from the Revised Ranger, we will never see a Revised class in this edition. The core of the classes will never be altered in this edition. The best we will see is the Class Feature Variant and apparently that still won't be enough. Truly fixing Sorcerer or Ranger would require a full rewrite. These Feats look to be a way to address Level Dipping, not fixing classes.
Totally agree about the ranger would need a full rewrite however the Sorcerer could be fixed quite easily with errata. 1. Sorcerers use the wizard spell list 2. Font of magic is 1SP = 1 spell level. 3. Metamagic can be changed whenever you gain a level of sorcerer.
In all the times I have played I have never seen anyone give a help action instead of attacking cast a spell or what not. Some of these can have a nice little niche like a Wizard with a quarterstaff has an enemy next to him and he knows the enemy has sentinel, if the wizard has mobile he swings then runs away if he has crusher if he hits and knocks the enemy back 5' feet next to an ally and runs away if enemy follows they can be attacked unless they disengaged or what have you. My biggest like about these feats is options for players for there characters so they are not the same as everyone else of the same class.
In any of those times, did anyone get to use Help as a bonus action and at range?
No this was before the mastermind was released, I like them but I prefer the Inquisitive rogue myself as I really like Snipers and they are awesome at that.
Disagree. The Sorcerer Spell List needs to be expanded to be more on par with the Wizard Spell List, but there needs to be some differentiation between them. It's just egregiously ridiculous how it is now. There are upwards of 200 spells on the Wizard list not on the Sorcerer list, but something like 10 spells on the Sorcerer list not on the Wizard list.
What spells should be where should, naturally, vary based on how scholastic vs instinctual they are.
Font of Magic should convert as 1 Sorcery Point per level of the spell slot.
I'm indifferent to this. I think it would be better to simply double the size of the Sorcery Point pool. So when you get Font of Magic you have 4 points (which you can't use on anything other than spell slots...) instead of 2, then at level 3 you'd have 6 instead of 3, and so on. The existing pool is just so small that you have to be extremely careful how you use it or you run out and don't have any left to do anything. Such a small cap also makes it hard to use certain expensive options because their costs scale so high.
Sorcerers should be able to change Metamagic whenever they gain a Sorcerer level
I am also indifferent to this. I am of the opinion that it takes something away from the inherent flavor of the class to allow swapping freely. Though this isn't really freely, it's only on level gain. But... it doesn't sit right with me to alter this.
Would it really be so problematic to give sorcerers all metamagics at once? They will still be limited by their available sorcery points. Maybe then the sorcerer would more frequently use some of the more niche metamagics that they would otherwise rarely pick. That would also allow the metamagic feat from this UA to be somewhat useful while still only granting a relatively small portion of the sorcerer's metamagic ability.
Would it really be so problematic to give sorcerers all metamagics at once? They will still be limited by their available sorcery points. Maybe then the sorcerer would more frequently use some of the more niche metamagics that they would otherwise rarely pick. That would also allow the metamagic feat from this UA to be somewhat useful while still only granting a relatively small portion of the sorcerer's metamagic ability.
In my game I housruled that our sorcerer could change his metamagic picks after a long rest. The reasoning we had (he and I worked on this together) was that we wanted the decision of which one to have available at a given time to be somewhat tactical (you know you are going into a situation, and that this option would be more useful than that one). I also let him change his spells on a long rest.
When this new feat list came out, he sent it to me and I immediately knew which one he wanted. I reminded him that the reason we went with "change your metamagic on long rest" was because he only gets 2 MMs until level 10. If he gets 4 of the 8 right out of the gate, will he really need to change them that often?
I then said, "If I give you the choice of our houserule about changing MM, or taking this feat, which would you take?" He chose the feat.
Just a little anecdote.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Disagree. The Sorcerer Spell List needs to be expanded to be more on par with the Wizard Spell List, but there needs to be some differentiation between them. It's just egregiously ridiculous how it is now. There are upwards of 200 spells on the Wizard list not on the Sorcerer list, but something like 10 spells on the Sorcerer list not on the Wizard list.
I think that Sorcerer's should still use their own list, but get alot of unique spells.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
This is awesome! I'm a little sad about the prerequisite clause in Eldritch Adept requiring warlock levels, but I suppose a full Sorcerer/Bard/Paladin+Spell Sniper (Eldritch Blast)+Eldritch Adept (Agonizing Blast) is just a bit silly. Like others have said, it really seems like we'll get Xanathar's 2.0 this year.... is it too much to hope for expanded Racial Feats?
The prerequisite for Eldritch Adept is Pact Magic OR the Spellcasting Feature. This applies to quite a number of classes and some subclasses. So you could theoretically Make something like an Eldritch Knight with this feat. Or even a Paladin or Ranger.
The prerequisite for Eldritch Adept is Pact Magic OR the Spellcasting Feature. This applies to quite a number of classes and some subclasses. So you could theoretically Make something like an Eldritch Knight with this feat. Or even a Paladin or Ranger.
Right. A variant human paladin/EK/ranger just wouldn't be able to take the feat at level 1. But at 4/8/etc it would work.
I'm honestly a little disappointed in your sorcerer player, BioWizard. Swapping Metamagic on long rest is an interesting fix, and does promote more strategic depth.
Does seem telling that the sorcerer deliberately sacrificed that versatility, AND a feat slot presumably, just to get that tiny little bit more ammo and open up his in-the-moment options.
Nevertheless. As was said to me when I wandered afield, perhaps we should hew a bit closer to the subject of the UA itself, not on how to fix the sorcerer. That subject has had its own threads in plenty, and regardless of your opinion on it, this UA doesn't do it, ne?
I'm honestly a little disappointed in your sorcerer player, BioWizard. Swapping Metamagic on long rest is an interesting fix, and does promote more strategic depth.
Does seem telling that the sorcerer deliberately sacrificed that versatility, AND a feat slot presumably, just to get that tiny little bit more ammo and open up his in-the-moment options.
Nevertheless. As was said to me when I wandered afield, perhaps we should hew a bit closer to the subject of the UA itself, not on how to fix the sorcerer. That subject has had its own threads in plenty, and regardless of your opinion on it, this UA doesn't do it, ne?
This is fair.
Should Artificer Initiate grant a single Infusion or should there be an Infusion Adept Feat?
Druid is also missing from the list, maybe a Wild Shape Adept as well?
Sounds ok. I say ok as it does seem to be out of place for the warlock to turn into a monkey, or the bard into a wolf. It would probably be something like gain druidic and primal savagery and speak with animals. Maybe call it 'Friend of the Forest'. I like that. But not wild shape.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I actually approve of Infusions being left off the artificer feat. Everybody wants them, and I do mean everybody...but that's a whole huge can of worms. Letting anybody who feels like it grab a magic item for freebies just by trading in a feat seems like the sort of thing a lot of DMs would be super reticent over, and having only the one Infusion also removes much of the point of "Infusions" in the first place, i.e. letting the artificer decide their magical gear loadout for the day to some extent. Infusions feel like the sort of thing you should need to be an actual artificer for, not just nabbing a tangentially related feat. Giving a cantrip, a spell, and a tool proficiency that you can also use as a spellcasting focus feels like the right amount of artificer flavor for a character that is not going any deeper into artificer than the candy pellet of class features that is the feat. It's a great tool for, say, the son of a famous artificer who learned a few tricks from his father while otherwise devoting himself to the martial doctrine of a fighter, or similar such characters.
As for Wild Shape, that also feels like something one needs to be an out-and-out druid for. Wild Shape is basically a fourth-level spell with extra verbiage, and it's also by far the most outlandish ability druids have. It would make sense that WIld Shaping, much like Infusions, are too difficult to learn without actually devoting real time, effort and energy into learning the fundamentals and supporting skills that get you to it, i.e. taking levels in the class. That and I don't know as I've ever heard of someone dipping Druid specifically for Wild Shape, so...
I could kinda see a sort of super junior Wild Shape, where someone earns a boon from an archdruid or the like and can select one animal shape to transform into once a day. Perhaps choose from the Familiar list, or from the list of critters applicable for Beastmaster rangers? Would definitely hang a Wisdom prereq on that though, and probably do a sidebar noting that this 'feat' is more a boon for DMs to assign to players than something for players to take just because they feel like it. But then again I'm weird, so who knows.
It is off topic, but the issues brought up in this thread are part of why I think a 5.5 edition would be good for the game, even if it angers those that don't want to buy new books.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I don't think Metamagic needs exclusive options. Sorcerers just need more Sorcery Points to give them breathing room to actually use them.
I kinda wish that at high levels they had more lower level slots. Something along the lines of 6 1st, 5 2nd, 5 3rd, 4 4th. Also, flesh out every Origin with an expanded spell list, a set of thematic spells that fit the Origin. The Clockwork Soul UA Origin has this. The others should all too.
With regards to the Ranger, generally, I feel the CFV actually fixes all the issues with the base class. The special variant Beasts for the Beastmaster are a step in the right direction, but need more interaction to make them work. Also, more of them then just 2.
Sorcerers need more than more sorcery points, but that would be a start. They also need more spells known (I agree it should probably be from subclasses), more versatility, and other changes, but that's neither here nor there.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The ranger was fixed quite a bit by that UA, but it still needs a few changes. The sorcerer wasn't fixed at all by the CFV UA, and they should do something similar to the overhaul they did for the Ranger in that UA.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Personally, I find the CFV to be great and will solve many issues, but you don't have to do much scrolling to find posts saying that it doesn't do enough to help the Sorcerer. I don't know what the end result will be for the CFV, but I would be willing to bet that there will still be lots of unhappy Sorcerer players out there.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Totally agree about the ranger would need a full rewrite however the Sorcerer could be fixed quite easily with errata. 1. Sorcerers use the wizard spell list 2. Font of magic is 1SP = 1 spell level. 3. Metamagic can be changed whenever you gain a level of sorcerer.
No this was before the mastermind was released, I like them but I prefer the Inquisitive rogue myself as I really like Snipers and they are awesome at that.
Disagree. The Sorcerer Spell List needs to be expanded to be more on par with the Wizard Spell List, but there needs to be some differentiation between them. It's just egregiously ridiculous how it is now. There are upwards of 200 spells on the Wizard list not on the Sorcerer list, but something like 10 spells on the Sorcerer list not on the Wizard list.
What spells should be where should, naturally, vary based on how scholastic vs instinctual they are.
I'm indifferent to this. I think it would be better to simply double the size of the Sorcery Point pool. So when you get Font of Magic you have 4 points (which you can't use on anything other than spell slots...) instead of 2, then at level 3 you'd have 6 instead of 3, and so on. The existing pool is just so small that you have to be extremely careful how you use it or you run out and don't have any left to do anything. Such a small cap also makes it hard to use certain expensive options because their costs scale so high.
I am also indifferent to this. I am of the opinion that it takes something away from the inherent flavor of the class to allow swapping freely. Though this isn't really freely, it's only on level gain. But... it doesn't sit right with me to alter this.
Would it really be so problematic to give sorcerers all metamagics at once? They will still be limited by their available sorcery points. Maybe then the sorcerer would more frequently use some of the more niche metamagics that they would otherwise rarely pick. That would also allow the metamagic feat from this UA to be somewhat useful while still only granting a relatively small portion of the sorcerer's metamagic ability.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
In my game I housruled that our sorcerer could change his metamagic picks after a long rest. The reasoning we had (he and I worked on this together) was that we wanted the decision of which one to have available at a given time to be somewhat tactical (you know you are going into a situation, and that this option would be more useful than that one). I also let him change his spells on a long rest.
When this new feat list came out, he sent it to me and I immediately knew which one he wanted. I reminded him that the reason we went with "change your metamagic on long rest" was because he only gets 2 MMs until level 10. If he gets 4 of the 8 right out of the gate, will he really need to change them that often?
I then said, "If I give you the choice of our houserule about changing MM, or taking this feat, which would you take?" He chose the feat.
Just a little anecdote.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think that Sorcerer's should still use their own list, but get alot of unique spells.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
The prerequisite for Eldritch Adept is Pact Magic OR the Spellcasting Feature. This applies to quite a number of classes and some subclasses. So you could theoretically Make something like an Eldritch Knight with this feat. Or even a Paladin or Ranger.
Right. A variant human paladin/EK/ranger just wouldn't be able to take the feat at level 1. But at 4/8/etc it would work.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'm honestly a little disappointed in your sorcerer player, BioWizard. Swapping Metamagic on long rest is an interesting fix, and does promote more strategic depth.
Does seem telling that the sorcerer deliberately sacrificed that versatility, AND a feat slot presumably, just to get that tiny little bit more ammo and open up his in-the-moment options.
Nevertheless. As was said to me when I wandered afield, perhaps we should hew a bit closer to the subject of the UA itself, not on how to fix the sorcerer. That subject has had its own threads in plenty, and regardless of your opinion on it, this UA doesn't do it, ne?
Please do not contact or message me.
This is fair.
Should Artificer Initiate grant a single Infusion or should there be an Infusion Adept Feat?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Druid is also missing from the list, maybe a Wild Shape Adept as well?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Sounds ok. I say ok as it does seem to be out of place for the warlock to turn into a monkey, or the bard into a wolf. It would probably be something like gain druidic and primal savagery and speak with animals. Maybe call it 'Friend of the Forest'. I like that. But not wild shape.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
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I actually approve of Infusions being left off the artificer feat. Everybody wants them, and I do mean everybody...but that's a whole huge can of worms. Letting anybody who feels like it grab a magic item for freebies just by trading in a feat seems like the sort of thing a lot of DMs would be super reticent over, and having only the one Infusion also removes much of the point of "Infusions" in the first place, i.e. letting the artificer decide their magical gear loadout for the day to some extent. Infusions feel like the sort of thing you should need to be an actual artificer for, not just nabbing a tangentially related feat. Giving a cantrip, a spell, and a tool proficiency that you can also use as a spellcasting focus feels like the right amount of artificer flavor for a character that is not going any deeper into artificer than the candy pellet of class features that is the feat. It's a great tool for, say, the son of a famous artificer who learned a few tricks from his father while otherwise devoting himself to the martial doctrine of a fighter, or similar such characters.
As for Wild Shape, that also feels like something one needs to be an out-and-out druid for. Wild Shape is basically a fourth-level spell with extra verbiage, and it's also by far the most outlandish ability druids have. It would make sense that WIld Shaping, much like Infusions, are too difficult to learn without actually devoting real time, effort and energy into learning the fundamentals and supporting skills that get you to it, i.e. taking levels in the class. That and I don't know as I've ever heard of someone dipping Druid specifically for Wild Shape, so...
I could kinda see a sort of super junior Wild Shape, where someone earns a boon from an archdruid or the like and can select one animal shape to transform into once a day. Perhaps choose from the Familiar list, or from the list of critters applicable for Beastmaster rangers? Would definitely hang a Wisdom prereq on that though, and probably do a sidebar noting that this 'feat' is more a boon for DMs to assign to players than something for players to take just because they feel like it. But then again I'm weird, so who knows.
Please do not contact or message me.
Not invested in the idea, just seems weird that we have "Dip Feats" for pretty much every class except Druid.
I agree with the Infusion being a bit much, just throwing it out there for discussion.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master