I don't think the idea is to 'fix' classes. This whole document seems more aimed at codifying some of the most common homebrew options and addressing the idea of the One Level Dip, offering ways to lessen the need for many characters to stray outside their core class and slow their progression. Yes, you CAN 'fix' a couple of classes with them, or at least slap-patch them, but that's clearly not the intent.
To really fix the ranger, sorcerer, and issues with other classes such as the warlock, Wizards would need to issue a new book that effectively replaces the old one. This is among the very last things they're ever going to do, in large part because of ferocious backlash against Eldritch Book Spam from the 3.5e era. Someone who has a set of the first-print runs of the 5e PHB, DMG, and MM is supposed to still have access to what amounts to the full and complete, up-to-date game. Minor errata aside, Wizards refuses to release any 'updates' that require a new book. The absolute best we're going to get is Class Feature Variants, which are likely to see print in the upcoming player options book Wizards has promised, which will give tables that own the new book the option to layer more mechanics over the bog-standard PHB.
The true ideal - an optional 5.5e book that replaces the PHB for tables that desire a deeper, more complex game with better class designs updated from north of five years of in-the-wild playtesting and observation - is never going to materialize. Wizards will never deliberately fragment its customer base, everything has to remain 100% backwards compatible with everything else because that's what's best for the bottom line.
It seems that practiced expert, metamagic adept, and the fighting style feat are a little bit much in terms of power level. Tandem Tactician just breaks action economy and is rediculusly powerful. This UA needs a TON of tweaking before I will allow any of the above
Honestly, I like Tandem Tactician. There's surprisingly little in D&D that promotes real teamplay strategies, especially in combat. Outside of nichey spell-combo circumstances, each player just kinda does their own thing on their turn and then, all too often, checks out until the DM yells their name again. Feats like Tandem Tactician that encourage players to aid each other and actively coordinate team strategies in battle seem like a splendid idea.
Honestly, I like Tandem Tactician. There's surprisingly little in D&D that promotes real teamplay strategies, especially in combat. Outside of nichey spell-combo circumstances, each player just kinda does their own thing on their turn and then, all too often, checks out until the DM yells their name again. Feats like Tandem Tactician that encourage players to aid each other and actively coordinate team strategies in battle seem like a splendid idea.
I also like the idea of Tandem Tactician. The feat itself, however, doesn't feel that tactical. I wish the benefit was something different than just flat out Help, and keyed off of intelligence. (This is partially because of my want for an actually smart fighter, instead of the brutes that is the optimal build. )
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
In all the times I have played I have never seen anyone give a help action instead of attacking cast a spell or what not. Some of these can have a nice little niche like a Wizard with a quarterstaff has an enemy next to him and he knows the enemy has sentinel, if the wizard has mobile he swings then runs away if he has crusher if he hits and knocks the enemy back 5' feet next to an ally and runs away if enemy follows they can be attacked unless they disengaged or what have you. My biggest like about these feats is options for players for there characters so they are not the same as everyone else of the same class.
One of the things I do like about these feats is that it just adds a bit of flair to combat, and makes it more cinematic. Imagine a Satyr Bard running across the field giving hurt allies cupcakes and smoothies to boost their energy. Or, a Shadar-Kai assassin rogue quickly adding poison to a crossbow bolt, then hiding behind some shrubs, firing the bolt through a carriage's window at a rival noble, as the Wizard casts Hold Person on the coachman. You could have a raging mountain dwarf barbarian with huge maul, running towards an ogre, leaping into the air and smashing it backwards off a ledge, causing it to fall off a cliff into a river below.
It just makes it seem a lot cooler, and to me also adds a bit of realism to the game.
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I don't see anyone upset by that. I see plenty of people upset that for years whenever Sorcerer players have commented that they feel the class is mechanically underpowered, the Wizard sitting at the table throws a tantrum about how the Sorcerer has Metamagic and that solves all their problems, and now the Wizard gets to use Metamagic too.
I definitely agree with Yurei that this UA is primarily to eliminate 1 level class dips. That's why Eldritch Adept, Metamagic Adept, Fighting Initiate, and Tracker are here. But 2 of those (Metamagic Adept, Tracker) are the defining features of the class at issue (Sorcerer, Ranger -- and it's not even base Ranger, it's the CFV Ranger) that has been repeatedly pushed into the face of anyone looking for enhancements for the base class as to why they are already too powerful to get anything else.
I agree. It should be a goal of WotC to get rid of level one-dips as much as possible, but in the process, you will get people complaining it allows other classes to step on the toes of another class/assimilate the purpose of other classes that are less played (Sorcerer, Ranger, etc).
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One easy way to put this issue (if you consider it an issue; I personally don't) to rest is giving the Tracker and Metamagic Adept feats a class prerequisite. Metamagic Adept, for example, can have the Sorcerer class with the Metamagic feature unlocked as a prerequisite, which means you can take it at Level 4.
That would kind of get rid of the point of these feats.
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That completely and entirely defeats the purpose of those feats being feats, and not bolt-ons for their respective classes. The point being made is that people don't like MM Adept or Tracker because the margin on what makes their original classes worth playing at all is razor thin, and any time anyone tries to fix that they get told to sit and spin. As was stated, whenever somebody brings up the fact that sorcerers are the weakest of the full casters by a significant margin and maybe that should be addressed, wizard players throw an absolute tantrum and scream about how metamagic is absolutely gamebreakingly overpowered and so long as the sorcerer retains exclusive access to metamagic, the sorcerer is just fine.
Well all right then. Sorcerers no longer have exclusive access to metamagic. Ergo, the sorcerer is no longer fine. So fix it. Improve the base class such that losing exclusive access to metamagic does not automatically invalidate them from any serious consideration for use.
Well all right then. Sorcerers no longer have exclusive access to metamagic. Ergo, the sorcerer is no longer fine. So fix it. Improve the base class such that losing exclusive access to metamagic does not automatically invalidate them from any serious consideration for use.
Fixing how the base Sorcerer works has been something I've been on board with for a while now, but the Class Features Variants (if/whenever/wherever that is coming out in anything official) is the closest 5e will probably get IMO. Also, as I said, I have no actual issue with these feats.
The Class Feature Variants UA did absolutely nothing to address the problem with Sorcerers, and this UA does basically the same thing. It's like the Sorcerer and Ranger classes are both sinking boats, and they're trying to patch the holes in the classes with duct tape.
Edit: I remembered this thread I created this months ago about this problem.
Well all right then. Sorcerers no longer have exclusive access to metamagic. Ergo, the sorcerer is no longer fine. So fix it. Improve the base class such that losing exclusive access to metamagic does not automatically invalidate them from any serious consideration for use.
Fixing how the base Sorcerer works has been something I've been on board with for a while now, but the Class Features Variants (if/whenever/wherever that is coming out in anything official) is the closest 5e will probably get IMO. Also, as I said, I have no actual issue with these feats.
The Class Feature Variants UA did absolutely nothing to address the problem with Sorcerers, and this UA does basically the same thing. It's like the Sorcerer and Ranger classes are both sinking boats, and they're trying to patch the holes in the classes with duct tape.
Hey, duct tape worked for astronauts. Don't insult duct tape. WotC is definitely using Scotch.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Yes, it is. Wizards are the 3rd most played class, and Sorcerer is the 2nd least played, just ahead of Druids. (Druids make sense, as they're a bit more difficult for new players to play than most other classes)
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Well all right then. Sorcerers no longer have exclusive access to metamagic. Ergo, the sorcerer is no longer fine. So fix it. Improve the base class such that losing exclusive access to metamagic does not automatically invalidate them from any serious consideration for use.
Fixing how the base Sorcerer works has been something I've been on board with for a while now, but the Class Features Variants (if/whenever/wherever that is coming out in anything official) is the closest 5e will probably get IMO. Also, as I said, I have no actual issue with these feats.
The Class Feature Variants UA did absolutely nothing to address the problem with Sorcerers, and this UA does basically the same thing. It's like the Sorcerer and Ranger classes are both sinking boats, and they're trying to patch the holes in the classes with duct tape.
Hey, duct tape worked for astronauts. Don't insult duct tape. WotC is definitely using Scotch.
Mythbusters tried using duct tape for boats. It works for a bit, but eventually fails. I chose the brand of tape purposefully.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Well all right then. Sorcerers no longer have exclusive access to metamagic. Ergo, the sorcerer is no longer fine. So fix it. Improve the base class such that losing exclusive access to metamagic does not automatically invalidate them from any serious consideration for use.
Fixing how the base Sorcerer works has been something I've been on board with for a while now, but the Class Features Variants (if/whenever/wherever that is coming out in anything official) is the closest 5e will probably get IMO. Also, as I said, I have no actual issue with these feats.
The Class Feature Variants UA did absolutely nothing to address the problem with Sorcerers, and this UA does basically the same thing. It's like the Sorcerer and Ranger classes are both sinking boats, and they're trying to patch the holes in the classes with duct tape.
Hey, duct tape worked for astronauts. Don't insult duct tape. WotC is definitely using Scotch.
Mythbusters tried using duct tape for boats. It works for a bit, but eventually fails. I chose the brand of tape purposefully.
Interesting fact. Duct tape has been defeated.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
So what needs to happen to keep Ranger and Sorcerer afloat is to force people to level dip into them if they want the access to the ONE ability that they have?
We know that the classes won't be revised. Done Deal, Not Happening in 5e. These classes are not going to fixed.
It occurred to me that Crusher would work very well with Booming Blade.
Whack, damage, movement, damage.
Hmmm.
The thing about Booming Blade's secondary damage is that it doesn't factor forced movement. If you are pushed, you don't trigger Booming Blade's secondary damage. You have to choose to move.
It occurred to me that Crusher would work very well with Booming Blade.
Whack, damage, movement, damage.
Hmmm.
The thing about Booming Blade's secondary damage is that it doesn't factor forced movement. If you are pushed, you don't trigger Booming Blade's secondary damage. You have to choose to move.
Hmm, well at least you pushed them back 5ft, and you can mostly likely move away w/o provoking. So if they want to attack next round they'll have to move.
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I don't think the idea is to 'fix' classes. This whole document seems more aimed at codifying some of the most common homebrew options and addressing the idea of the One Level Dip, offering ways to lessen the need for many characters to stray outside their core class and slow their progression. Yes, you CAN 'fix' a couple of classes with them, or at least slap-patch them, but that's clearly not the intent.
To really fix the ranger, sorcerer, and issues with other classes such as the warlock, Wizards would need to issue a new book that effectively replaces the old one. This is among the very last things they're ever going to do, in large part because of ferocious backlash against Eldritch Book Spam from the 3.5e era. Someone who has a set of the first-print runs of the 5e PHB, DMG, and MM is supposed to still have access to what amounts to the full and complete, up-to-date game. Minor errata aside, Wizards refuses to release any 'updates' that require a new book. The absolute best we're going to get is Class Feature Variants, which are likely to see print in the upcoming player options book Wizards has promised, which will give tables that own the new book the option to layer more mechanics over the bog-standard PHB.
The true ideal - an optional 5.5e book that replaces the PHB for tables that desire a deeper, more complex game with better class designs updated from north of five years of in-the-wild playtesting and observation - is never going to materialize. Wizards will never deliberately fragment its customer base, everything has to remain 100% backwards compatible with everything else because that's what's best for the bottom line.
No matter how bad that is for the game.
Please do not contact or message me.
It seems that practiced expert, metamagic adept, and the fighting style feat are a little bit much in terms of power level. Tandem Tactician just breaks action economy and is rediculusly powerful. This UA needs a TON of tweaking before I will allow any of the above
I exist, and I guess so does this
That was my first judgment at least
I exist, and I guess so does this
Really? Hm.
Honestly, I like Tandem Tactician. There's surprisingly little in D&D that promotes real teamplay strategies, especially in combat. Outside of nichey spell-combo circumstances, each player just kinda does their own thing on their turn and then, all too often, checks out until the DM yells their name again. Feats like Tandem Tactician that encourage players to aid each other and actively coordinate team strategies in battle seem like a splendid idea.
Please do not contact or message me.
I also like the idea of Tandem Tactician. The feat itself, however, doesn't feel that tactical. I wish the benefit was something different than just flat out Help, and keyed off of intelligence. (This is partially because of my want for an actually smart fighter, instead of the brutes that is the optimal build. )
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
In all the times I have played I have never seen anyone give a help action instead of attacking cast a spell or what not. Some of these can have a nice little niche like a Wizard with a quarterstaff has an enemy next to him and he knows the enemy has sentinel, if the wizard has mobile he swings then runs away if he has crusher if he hits and knocks the enemy back 5' feet next to an ally and runs away if enemy follows they can be attacked unless they disengaged or what have you. My biggest like about these feats is options for players for there characters so they are not the same as everyone else of the same class.
One of the things I do like about these feats is that it just adds a bit of flair to combat, and makes it more cinematic. Imagine a Satyr Bard running across the field giving hurt allies cupcakes and smoothies to boost their energy. Or, a Shadar-Kai assassin rogue quickly adding poison to a crossbow bolt, then hiding behind some shrubs, firing the bolt through a carriage's window at a rival noble, as the Wizard casts Hold Person on the coachman. You could have a raging mountain dwarf barbarian with huge maul, running towards an ogre, leaping into the air and smashing it backwards off a ledge, causing it to fall off a cliff into a river below.
It just makes it seem a lot cooler, and to me also adds a bit of realism to the game.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
But that's the ONLY thing Sorcerers get. And frankly, they don't get enough of it. But sure, we can pass it around as a Feat too. No worries! /s
I don't see anyone upset by that. I see plenty of people upset that for years whenever Sorcerer players have commented that they feel the class is mechanically underpowered, the Wizard sitting at the table throws a tantrum about how the Sorcerer has Metamagic and that solves all their problems, and now the Wizard gets to use Metamagic too.
I definitely agree with Yurei that this UA is primarily to eliminate 1 level class dips. That's why Eldritch Adept, Metamagic Adept, Fighting Initiate, and Tracker are here. But 2 of those (Metamagic Adept, Tracker) are the defining features of the class at issue (Sorcerer, Ranger -- and it's not even base Ranger, it's the CFV Ranger) that has been repeatedly pushed into the face of anyone looking for enhancements for the base class as to why they are already too powerful to get anything else.
It's a double standard.
I agree. It should be a goal of WotC to get rid of level one-dips as much as possible, but in the process, you will get people complaining it allows other classes to step on the toes of another class/assimilate the purpose of other classes that are less played (Sorcerer, Ranger, etc).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yes.
That would kind of get rid of the point of these feats.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
That completely and entirely defeats the purpose of those feats being feats, and not bolt-ons for their respective classes. The point being made is that people don't like MM Adept or Tracker because the margin on what makes their original classes worth playing at all is razor thin, and any time anyone tries to fix that they get told to sit and spin. As was stated, whenever somebody brings up the fact that sorcerers are the weakest of the full casters by a significant margin and maybe that should be addressed, wizard players throw an absolute tantrum and scream about how metamagic is absolutely gamebreakingly overpowered and so long as the sorcerer retains exclusive access to metamagic, the sorcerer is just fine.
Well all right then. Sorcerers no longer have exclusive access to metamagic. Ergo, the sorcerer is no longer fine. So fix it. Improve the base class such that losing exclusive access to metamagic does not automatically invalidate them from any serious consideration for use.
Please do not contact or message me.
The Class Feature Variants UA did absolutely nothing to address the problem with Sorcerers, and this UA does basically the same thing. It's like the Sorcerer and Ranger classes are both sinking boats, and they're trying to patch the holes in the classes with duct tape.
Edit: I remembered this thread I created this months ago about this problem.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Hey, duct tape worked for astronauts. Don't insult duct tape. WotC is definitely using Scotch.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Yes, it is. Wizards are the 3rd most played class, and Sorcerer is the 2nd least played, just ahead of Druids. (Druids make sense, as they're a bit more difficult for new players to play than most other classes)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Mythbusters tried using duct tape for boats. It works for a bit, but eventually fails. I chose the brand of tape purposefully.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Interesting fact. Duct tape has been defeated.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
So what needs to happen to keep Ranger and Sorcerer afloat is to force people to level dip into them if they want the access to the ONE ability that they have?
We know that the classes won't be revised. Done Deal, Not Happening in 5e. These classes are not going to fixed.
Maybe it is time to move on.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
It occurred to me that Crusher would work very well with Booming Blade.
Whack, damage, movement, damage.
Hmmm.
The thing about Booming Blade's secondary damage is that it doesn't factor forced movement. If you are pushed, you don't trigger Booming Blade's secondary damage. You have to choose to move.
Hmm, well at least you pushed them back 5ft, and you can mostly likely move away w/o provoking. So if they want to attack next round they'll have to move.