The average balrog is twice the height of an elf. Assuming the average elf is 6', then the average balrog is about 12', just over a fifth of Smaug's length(According to the Atlas' measurement) in height, and probably taller than him. Gothmog would probably be closer to 15', though a specific estimate is never given. This would make him over a quarter of Smaug's length, which isn't too bad when you have a whip and a really big axe.
The average balrog is twice the height of an elf. Assuming the average elf is 6', then the average balrog is about 12', just over a fifth of Smaug's length(According to the Atlas' measurement) in height, and probably taller than him. Gothmog would probably be closer to 15', though a specific estimate is never given. This would make him over a quarter of Smaug's length, which isn't too bad when you have a whip and a really big axe.
I will also note that this description is suspect. Tolkien did not have a single, unified vision of how large a Balrog is--we have sources putting them about twice the height of an elf, but the most in-depth description is that of the Balrog of Moria, whose "wings spread from wall to wall" in the vast halls of Khazad-dûm and who "broke the mountain-side where he smote it in its ruin."
Digging into earlier drafts of the Silmarillion, published in Lost Tails, we have the following quote:
"Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."
Lost Tales might be a bit apocryphal, but this still gives us an example of Tolkien's thought process--in his earlier draft, he specifically seems to indicate that the draconic species are inferior to Balrogs in their power. If we accept this information as informative, even though it is only in draft form, you are looking at a lesser dragon--one inferior to some of the great dragons of the First Age--fighting against the greatest of a race Tolkien considered superior to the dragons.
Gothmog would defo win. The only canon source (The Hobbit) describes Smaug as not that powerful as far as dragons go and Gothmog is the most powerful Balrog who ever existed (his axe could slice right through Smaug’s invulnerable armor). Gothmog could easily defeat Smaug. Ancalagon (or even Glaurung) he might have had more trouble with.
In answer to everyone: I quite agree that Gothmog would smash Smaug, going off what we have in the books.
But if we are taking the movie Smaug into consideration, Gothmog could not win. Movie Smaug could not even be killed by Sauron, there’s about 50 Tolkien scholar blogs who agree on this.
But sure, in the books Smaug would totally get flattened by Gothmog.
Gothmog would defo win. The only canon source (The Hobbit) describes Smaug as not that powerful as far as dragons go and Gothmog is the most powerful Balrog who ever existed (his axe could slice right through Smaug’s invulnerable armor). Gothmog could easily defeat Smaug. Ancalagon (or even Glaurung) he might have had more trouble with.
Yeah. See my comment above tho.
And no one but Morgoth could have killed Ancalagon. Even the Valar got beaten by him, and any Vala could have crushed Gothmog easily.
But if we are taking the movie Smaug into consideration, Gothmog could not win. Movie Smaug could not even be killed by Sauron, there’s about 50 Tolkien scholar blogs who agree on this.
Can you provide some citations to support this claim? I cannot imagine there is a single actual scholar of Tolkien scholar who likes the Hobbit movies, much less respects them enough to give them the thought necessary to evaluate movie Smaug's relative power level.
But if we are taking the movie Smaug into consideration, Gothmog could not win. Movie Smaug could not even be killed by Sauron, there’s about 50 Tolkien scholar blogs who agree on this.
Can you provide some citations to support this claim? I cannot imagine there is a single actual scholar of Tolkien scholar who likes the Hobbit movies, much less respects them enough to give them the thought necessary to evaluate movie Smaug's relative power level.
Tolkien scholar is stretching it a bit, these guys are just nerds who do Tolkien and/or fantasy literature in general blogs. I doubt any of them are actually Tolkien scholars.
But if we are taking the movie Smaug into consideration, Gothmog could not win. Movie Smaug could not even be killed by Sauron, there’s about 50 Tolkien scholar blogs who agree on this.
Can you provide some citations to support this claim? I cannot imagine there is a single actual scholar of Tolkien scholar who likes the Hobbit movies, much less respects them enough to give them the thought necessary to evaluate movie Smaug's relative power level.
Tolkien scholar is stretching it a bit, these guys are just nerds who do Tolkien and/or fantasy literature in general blogs. I doubt any of them are actually Tolkien scholars.
They must not be very good at their blogging then.
1. If we go by the books, Appendix A to Return of the King makes it explicitly clear that Gandalf and the White Council were afraid Sauron would subjugate and command Smaug, a clear indication that Smaug is the inferior of the pair.
2. I have heard the extended editions of the Hobbit movies make it clear that Smaug is working for Sauron in some capacity, but there is not enough brandy in all of Hobbiton to get me drunk enough to watch the already-bloated Hobbit's extended editions.
Look, Gothmog is a lesser god. Smaug is a dragon. Smaug is also not as big as Laketown because he's seen rushing through it to get to Bard and his son in the movies (which are unreliable in the first place). If he was the size of the entire town, he could've just flicked his tail lmao. Peter Jackson doesn't make any reference to him canonically being at least 1,000 feet long and I have no idea where you got that idea from.
They made Smaug bigger in the movie because I guarantee you no one would've watched the second or third movie if they knew Smaug was less than half the size of a football field. His gargantuan size was the way it was on purpose; THEATRICS. It's the same reason why Azog is a freaking 8 ft. tall orc without a forearm instead of some mangy albino goblin. They needed to an actual bad guy that the audience wasn't sure the good guys could beat.
Anyway, the fact that Gothmog is god is really all you need to end this argument. His axe and whip make a hefty combo and his whip doesn't need to be utilized for only damage. Gothmog uses it to trip up and entangle Gandalf before they both end up falling to their dooms. I could totally see Gothmog using his whip as make shift reigns so he can buck around on Smaug for a bit before beheading him with his badass axe.
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The Tavern Mother (Trust me, it's not as weird as it sounds!)
I am the God-Queen of Trickery, Cunning, Lies, and Gaslighting- but you already knew that... "Moon's Haunted." *Cocks shotgun with malicious intent* "Eliksni must rise...yes?" _________ When it comes to pronouns I preferVariks-Senpai(But I'm a dude. Pronouns are weird.)
Look, Gothmog is a lesser god. Smaug is a dragon. Smaug is also not as big as Laketown because he's seen rushing through it to get to Bard and his son in the movies (which are unreliable in the first place). If he was the size of the entire town, he could've just flicked his tail lmao. Peter Jackson doesn't make any reference to him canonically being at least 1,000 feet long and I have no idea where you got that idea from.
They made Smaug bigger in the movie because I guarantee you no one would've watched the second or third movie if they knew Smaug was less than half the size of a football field. His gargantuan size was the way it was on purpose; THEATRICS. It's the same reason why Azog is a freaking 8 ft. tall orc without a forearm instead of some mangy albino goblin. They needed to an actual bad guy that the audience wasn't sure the good guys could beat.
Anyway, the fact that Gothmog is god is really all you need to end this argument. His axe and whip make a hefty combo and his whip doesn't need to be utilized for only damage. Gothmog uses it to trip up and entangle Gandalf before they both end up falling to their dooms. I could totally see Gothmog using his whip as make shift reigns so he can buck around on Smaug for a bit before beheading him with his badass axe.
I was using Erebor as a size reference for movie Smaug, then I remembered that dwarves are a third smaller then humans... Lmao XDXDXD
Yeah Gothmog would have flattened book Smaug. I still think movie Smaug could have chowed him whole tho.
I will admit it, I think movie Smaug is awesome so I may be biased. Movie Smaug is one of my top five favorite Tolkien franchise things.
Gothmog uses it to trip up and entangle Gandalf before they both end up falling to their dooms.
(Remainder of quotation omitted)
Just a slight point of clarification: The balrog who fights, and is eventually is slain by, Gandalf is known as Durin's Bane and is distinct from Gothmog. Gothmog was the Lord of the Balrogs under Morgoth in the First Age, but was slain by Ecthelion during the the Fall of Gondolin. Durin's Bane was just one of the Gothmog's soldiers, who fled to the dark places of the world after the fall of Morgoth.
Gothmog uses it to trip up and entangle Gandalf before they both end up falling to their dooms.
(Remainder of quotation omitted)
Just a slight point of clarification: The balrog who fights, and is eventually is slain by, Gandalf is known as Durin's Bane and is distinct from Gothmog. Gothmog was the Lord of the Balrogs under Morgoth in the First Age, but was slain by Ecthelion during the the Fall of Gondolin. Durin's Bane was just one of the Gothmog's soldiers, who fled to the dark places of the world after the fall of Morgoth.
One day no posts, so let’s think of something else… Gothmog vs… Ancalagon? Glaurung?
Vs Ancalagon, he’s dead. Ancalagon is the size of a mountain range, Gothmog looks like a fly next to him. Ancalagon would just have to step on him or chew him whole, and Gothmog’s attacks would be like mosquito bites to something of that size.
Vs Glaurung, depends…. I can see it going either way.
In a straight fight, Gothmog. But Sauron doesn't do straight fights.
I think this fight would be like a fighter/paladin between a straight up barbarian. In a straight fight, as Half has stated, Gothmog would dominate. But I think we all know Sauron is smart enough not to fight Gothmog face to face. If we're talking like a full scale war between the two...Suaron fo sho.
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The Tavern Mother (Trust me, it's not as weird as it sounds!)
I am the God-Queen of Trickery, Cunning, Lies, and Gaslighting- but you already knew that... "Moon's Haunted." *Cocks shotgun with malicious intent* "Eliksni must rise...yes?" _________ When it comes to pronouns I preferVariks-Senpai(But I'm a dude. Pronouns are weird.)
OH, also, I'm making a game based around LOTR that was based off of a discord game I made. I'll post the rules in a bit...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Tavern Mother (Trust me, it's not as weird as it sounds!)
I am the God-Queen of Trickery, Cunning, Lies, and Gaslighting- but you already knew that... "Moon's Haunted." *Cocks shotgun with malicious intent* "Eliksni must rise...yes?" _________ When it comes to pronouns I preferVariks-Senpai(But I'm a dude. Pronouns are weird.)
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The average balrog is twice the height of an elf. Assuming the average elf is 6', then the average balrog is about 12', just over a fifth of Smaug's length(According to the Atlas' measurement) in height, and probably taller than him. Gothmog would probably be closer to 15', though a specific estimate is never given. This would make him over a quarter of Smaug's length, which isn't too bad when you have a whip and a really big axe.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
I will also note that this description is suspect. Tolkien did not have a single, unified vision of how large a Balrog is--we have sources putting them about twice the height of an elf, but the most in-depth description is that of the Balrog of Moria, whose "wings spread from wall to wall" in the vast halls of Khazad-dûm and who "broke the mountain-side where he smote it in its ruin."
Digging into earlier drafts of the Silmarillion, published in Lost Tails, we have the following quote:
"Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."
Lost Tales might be a bit apocryphal, but this still gives us an example of Tolkien's thought process--in his earlier draft, he specifically seems to indicate that the draconic species are inferior to Balrogs in their power. If we accept this information as informative, even though it is only in draft form, you are looking at a lesser dragon--one inferior to some of the great dragons of the First Age--fighting against the greatest of a race Tolkien considered superior to the dragons.
Gothmog would defo win. The only canon source (The Hobbit) describes Smaug as not that powerful as far as dragons go and Gothmog is the most powerful Balrog who ever existed (his axe could slice right through Smaug’s invulnerable armor). Gothmog could easily defeat Smaug. Ancalagon (or even Glaurung) he might have had more trouble with.
In answer to everyone: I quite agree that Gothmog would smash Smaug, going off what we have in the books.
But if we are taking the movie Smaug into consideration, Gothmog could not win. Movie Smaug could not even be killed by Sauron, there’s about 50 Tolkien scholar blogs who agree on this.
But sure, in the books Smaug would totally get flattened by Gothmog.
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Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
Yeah. See my comment above tho.
And no one but Morgoth could have killed Ancalagon. Even the Valar got beaten by him, and any Vala could have crushed Gothmog easily.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
Okay. So the bottom line is movie Smaug is a lot tougher than book Smaug.
Didn’t Tuor or Earendil wind up killing Ancalagon at the end of the First Age? (My memory after the fall of Doriath is kinda hazy.)
Yep - Eärendil, alongside a host of eagles (those guys always pull through when you need them!), took down Ancalagon.
Can you provide some citations to support this claim? I cannot imagine there is a single actual scholar of Tolkien scholar who likes the Hobbit movies, much less respects them enough to give them the thought necessary to evaluate movie Smaug's relative power level.
Tolkien scholar is stretching it a bit, these guys are just nerds who do Tolkien and/or fantasy literature in general blogs. I doubt any of them are actually Tolkien scholars.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
They must not be very good at their blogging then.
1. If we go by the books, Appendix A to Return of the King makes it explicitly clear that Gandalf and the White Council were afraid Sauron would subjugate and command Smaug, a clear indication that Smaug is the inferior of the pair.
2. I have heard the extended editions of the Hobbit movies make it clear that Smaug is working for Sauron in some capacity, but there is not enough brandy in all of Hobbiton to get me drunk enough to watch the already-bloated Hobbit's extended editions.
Gothmog < Smaug
Look, Gothmog is a lesser god. Smaug is a dragon. Smaug is also not as big as Laketown because he's seen rushing through it to get to Bard and his son in the movies (which are unreliable in the first place). If he was the size of the entire town, he could've just flicked his tail lmao. Peter Jackson doesn't make any reference to him canonically being at least 1,000 feet long and I have no idea where you got that idea from.
They made Smaug bigger in the movie because I guarantee you no one would've watched the second or third movie if they knew Smaug was less than half the size of a football field. His gargantuan size was the way it was on purpose; THEATRICS. It's the same reason why Azog is a freaking 8 ft. tall orc without a forearm instead of some mangy albino goblin. They needed to an actual bad guy that the audience wasn't sure the good guys could beat.
Anyway, the fact that Gothmog is god is really all you need to end this argument. His axe and whip make a hefty combo and his whip doesn't need to be utilized for only damage. Gothmog uses it to trip up and entangle Gandalf before they both end up falling to their dooms. I could totally see Gothmog using his whip as make shift reigns so he can buck around on Smaug for a bit before beheading him with his badass axe.
The Tavern Mother (Trust me, it's not as weird as it sounds!)
I am the God-Queen of Trickery, Cunning, Lies, and Gaslighting- but you already knew that...
"Moon's Haunted." *Cocks shotgun with malicious intent*
"Eliksni must rise...yes?"
_________
When it comes to pronouns I prefer Variks-Senpai (But I'm a dude. Pronouns are weird.)
I was using Erebor as a size reference for movie Smaug, then I remembered that dwarves are a third smaller then humans... Lmao XDXDXD
Yeah Gothmog would have flattened book Smaug. I still think movie Smaug could have chowed him whole tho.
I will admit it, I think movie Smaug is awesome so I may be biased. Movie Smaug is one of my top five favorite Tolkien franchise things.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
Just a slight point of clarification: The balrog who fights, and is eventually is slain by, Gandalf is known as Durin's Bane and is distinct from Gothmog. Gothmog was the Lord of the Balrogs under Morgoth in the First Age, but was slain by Ecthelion during the the Fall of Gondolin. Durin's Bane was just one of the Gothmog's soldiers, who fled to the dark places of the world after the fall of Morgoth.
Right! I remember this now.
Since Gothmog won that one, let’s up the game a bit… Gothmog vs Sauron.
I’m pretty confident Sauron would get flattened. The guy stinks at fighting, every time he tries it he loses.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
That’s a tough one, but I also vote for Gothmog.
In a straight fight, Gothmog. But Sauron doesn't do straight fights.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
One day no posts, so let’s think of something else… Gothmog vs… Ancalagon? Glaurung?
Vs Ancalagon, he’s dead. Ancalagon is the size of a mountain range, Gothmog looks like a fly next to him. Ancalagon would just have to step on him or chew him whole, and Gothmog’s attacks would be like mosquito bites to something of that size.
Vs Glaurung, depends…. I can see it going either way.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
I think this fight would be like a fighter/paladin between a straight up barbarian. In a straight fight, as Half has stated, Gothmog would dominate. But I think we all know Sauron is smart enough not to fight Gothmog face to face. If we're talking like a full scale war between the two...Suaron fo sho.
The Tavern Mother (Trust me, it's not as weird as it sounds!)
I am the God-Queen of Trickery, Cunning, Lies, and Gaslighting- but you already knew that...
"Moon's Haunted." *Cocks shotgun with malicious intent*
"Eliksni must rise...yes?"
_________
When it comes to pronouns I prefer Variks-Senpai (But I'm a dude. Pronouns are weird.)
OH, also, I'm making a game based around LOTR that was based off of a discord game I made. I'll post the rules in a bit...
The Tavern Mother (Trust me, it's not as weird as it sounds!)
I am the God-Queen of Trickery, Cunning, Lies, and Gaslighting- but you already knew that...
"Moon's Haunted." *Cocks shotgun with malicious intent*
"Eliksni must rise...yes?"
_________
When it comes to pronouns I prefer Variks-Senpai (But I'm a dude. Pronouns are weird.)