I'm a brand new d&d player, as in I've been playing for a little over a week. I'm playing a bard who is going to go into the college of lore and want to plan ahead on what magical secrets to take. Just about everywhere I look, people are saying counterspell is basically mandatory. I still don't know all the game mechanics, and I'm wondering why people think it is so good.
(Also yes, my name is kind of lame...)
If anyone has any other tips for a brand new bard player, I'd love to hear them.
Counterspell is borderline broken in 5e. Using your reaction to negate an enemy's turn is a no-brainer. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's mandatory. You may not fight a lot of spellcasters (that depends on your DM and the adventure) and I don't think it's fair to put that pressure on the bard if none of the other players were willing to play a class that has access to it either. Definitely consider it, but I doubt anyone will blame if you wanted to take Find Greater Steed instead.
The other reason counterspell is great for bards is Glibness, but that's a long ways off.
Like Coder said, it's not really a mandatory for you to take it, but it can be amazingly effective. Since you're a Lore Bard, you get 2 more magical secrets than any other bard and Counterspell is a usual pick for your 6th level magical secrets. With Jack of All Trades and Peerless Skill at level 14, there is a very good chance you can counter any spell.
The reason every likes this spell so much is because it can alter the flow of a battle with a well placed counter. Enemy Spellcaster is about to Meteor Storm your entire party, Boom Counterspell, and it never happens. Enemy Spellcaster just lost their 9th level spell slot and you may have only lost a 3rd level. So this can make you destroy all the enemy high level spell slots by only expending low level ones.
And just to point out, Find Greater Steed isn't a spell you can take till Level 10, but Counterspell is one you can take at 6th. As for other possible magical secrets that you might want to take would depend on the kind of character you're looking to build.
As someone who plays a Bard, I believe it is a top pick for a Lore Bard at level 6. The reason it is great is because in round one, you can shut down what the other team wants to do to "Shape the Battle". Every party falls into a groove where they do this and that at the start of the battle and they pick and choose weapons, spells, abilities, even marching order for the party, based on this. If you are able to use your reaction to shut down the other party's setup, you can get off to a good jump. But this benefit comes at the cost of using another spell slot on turn 1.
I haven't played a high level Bard yet and I am a little skeptical of the claim that a Bard, using a level 3 spell can shut down everything the opponents are doing. First, your bard can only do this once per round and only when they haven't used their reaction for something else. If the other party has multiple spellcasters, then they have opportunities to use their other spells. Second, a bard can't do this indefinitely. Spell slots get used up so it isn't going to last forever. Third, there is a debate about what the Bard knows before he casts his Counterspell. Does the bard even know what he is Counterspelling? Is he Counterspelling Bane or Fireball? Big difference. Third, many attacks that sound like spells are not in fact spells, so they can't be counterspelled.
If you are just starting out, you should get a feel for what is going on and if you think Counterspell is the right choice when you get to level 6 then take it. But I have a hard time coming up with two spells I would rather have that are not already on the Bard spell list.
So, to the OP I say 1) e4!
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Long Answer: Absolutely. Lol. Like others have mentioned, it has a lot to do with the idea of action economy. Using your reaction to trade with a monster's action is a very favorable exchange. The more you can limit the opponent's relevant actions, the closer you get to victory. This strength is exacerbated because spells are generally more powerful than attacks in DnD. You are often trading a single reaction for the haymaker the enemy was hoping would turn the tide of battle.
The reason it appears to be so pervasive on the Bard (and especially the lore bard with those level 6 magical secrets) is because they have the strongest counterspell in the game besides the Abjuration wizard. The key to this is that to counterspell a spell of 4th level or higher you have to make an ability check against the targeted spell's level + 10. This ability check does not include your proficiency bonus. Why is that important? Jack of All Trades. JoAT boosts your counterspell ability checks and makes it much more likely you can counterspell higher level spells.
Is it mandatory? No. Nothing in DnD is. Is it extremely powerful, and something the bard has natural synergy with? Absolutely.
My one piece of advice is that if you don't take counterspell, look for something else with a lot of raw power. The lore bard has most of its power balance resting on those 6th level magical secrets.
You don't need counterspell, but it's almost too good a pick not to take it. Which is part of the problem. Counterspell is, simply put, too good of a spell not to have. And I kind of hate it because of that. Previous editions got along just fine without it. I guess people think holding dispel magic is too much trouble.
Having said that, bards are excellent at using it. Thanks to Jack of All Trades, bards are better at using counterspell than anyone else; save a School of Abjuration wizard from level 10 onwards. Whenever a bard is forced to make a spellcasting ability check, it's still an ability check they're not proficient in. This means they add half their proficiency bonus to the roll.
The meteor swarm and counterspell above was a poor example. The range on meteor swarm is 1 mile while the range on counterspell is 60 feet. If some enemy spell caster wants to meteor swarm your party it's going to happen.
Range can be a serious counter just by moving out of counterspell range first before casting any spell with a range greater than 60 feet.
The PC wanting to use counterspell also needs to be able to see the opposing caster whom he or she wishes to counter. Subtle spell metamagic and improved invisibility are examples of preventing counterspell.
If your PC is within range to counter a spell then he or she is also within range to have the counterspell counterspelled allowing the initial spell to go through anyway. That works both ways and it lends to run both casters out of a limited resource faster.
Where counterspell is nice on a bard is using lower level slots against higher level spells for better attrition when both casters are counterspelling, and being able to counterspell the counterspell used against you is nice, but it's also a spell specific to certain types of opponents and useless against many other opponents.
Bestow curse will deny more actions through a single slot used against a wider variety of opponents using the 3rd application. Even crown of madness will deny at least one action against a wider variety with better range and a lower level slot. They just use a save instead of a check.
I personally find counterspell is over-rated. It's nice when you need it but there are many more things that can be done with the limited slots and limited spells known that are more universally applied.
Having said that, if you start with a variant human who takes fey touched and shadow touched at levels 1 and 4 your PC won't be behind in CHA, and has more play room for extra secrets at 6th level.
That's a refreshing take on counterspell Ashrym. And well reasoned.
I'm still a big fan of the the thing, but many other options excite me much more.
If I have one more piece of advice for you chessplayer123abc, it's to plan what you want to be your 6th level secrets at character generation. It may be hard, but it will really pay off. At least one of your secrets will most likely become a main shtick, and many of the best choices have feats that you want to take to better enable them.
Some of my favorite magic secrets (no particular order) and the feats that enable them:
1. Haste + Find Steed (probably the only second level spell I like as a secret):
Casting haste while riding your steed will share the effect of the spell with it. That is one freakishly fast mount and the feat + armor class boost from haste makes it really hard to kill. You're not easy to hit yourself either. A mobile spellcaster has a lot of tactical versatility. This build wants the concentration boosting feats to better keep up haste, but doesn't necessarily need to prioritize them like the spell choices listed next. Mounted characters are pretty campaign dependent. Many settings are quite awkward for mounts. If you're really into this one I'd talk to the DM beforehand to see if you will have ample space. If not, you can still make this work but you'll have to play a small race that summons a medium sized mount. I personally love the halfling + war dog vibe, and the size really does ease playability, so this may be what you want regardless of campaign.
2. Spirit Guardians/Conjure Animals:
Feat(s) - Resilient (constitution), Warcaster.
These spells (along with hypnotic pattern) are likely the most powerful 3rd level spells in the game. I personally don't recommend a new player attempt to manage the summons of conjure animals until they're more familiar with the game as it takes a lot of preparation and game familiarity to run without disrupting the flow of a session. But, I have it here for completeness because this is my "crazy powerful concentration spell" slot. Your other secret can be whatever you want, but whichever one of these you take will be your main shtick once you unlock it. Here, the race is very important. You really want to be a variant human (or the new custom race from Tasha's) for the first level feat so that you can pick up both feats that boost your concentration saves before level 6. I cannot stress this enough. These spells are so good that all you care about is maintaining concentration once they have been cast.
Conjure Animals is a beast. Remember how counterspell has favorable action economy? Conjure Animals is the king of action economy. Imagine putting eight more pawns on your board in the middle of the game.
Spirit Guardians is also incredible and one of my favorite spells in the game. It's also much easier to use than conjure animals. It's basically a blender. Cast it and watch everything around you melt with passive damage round after round. Besides mechanics, I think this spell has awesome flavor potential. Who would your spirits be?
3. Fireball/Lightning Bolt
Feat(s) - none
Quintessential blasting spells, something the bard list is mostly lacking. Sometimes some good, quick damage is all you need. Blasting is generally considered inferior to battlefield control, but it certainly isn't bad. Fireball is a bit better, but honestly, Lightning Bolt has plenty of use cases that trump its big brother because of space issues and friendly fire. Not to mention being the less commonly resisted damage type. You could take both to really jump down the blaster rabbit hole, but one will do on most any character.
4. Tiny Servant + Crusader's Mantle:
Feat(s) - Resilient (constitution), Warcaster
More of the same feats, but that's because this involves another concentration spell. Still, they're not nearly as important as they are on the conjure animals or spirit guardians bard. This is a super fun combo that takes a while to get set up. You may want to wait to pick up tiny servant with a 10th level magic secret because this combination only gets interesting when you can upcast tiny servant in a higher level spell slots. Tiny servant turns one tiny inanimate object into a little friend that fights for you, and makes two more for each spell level beyond its original. The beauty of this "summon" spell is that it lacks concentration, which means you can cast crusader's mantle to boost your whole squad of trinket soldiers and any other allies that happen to be within the aura. The spell also lasts 8 hours. Cast it at the beginning of the day and then stow all of your buddies on your person ready to spring an attack. This isn't better than spirit guardians by any means, but the flavor is wonderful.
I think counterspell is good, but overrated. It has severve limitations:
- You don't know what spell the enemy are casting. At 6th level wasting a precious 3rd level slot to counter a low impact spell is a serious cost.
- You may go through plenty of adventuring days that you never cast it, if you don't encounter casters.
- Range is low and it requires sight. That means you will probably have to stay a lot closer to the enemy that you would otherwise. You also cant go into full cover. This means you might end up attacked and loose concentration on your own spell (or worse) because you wanted to counter an enemy spell (that might end up being low impact). This is serious, but generally ignored, I think.
Why is it still a good pick?
- It is the only spell in the game that does what it does.
- It will stay relevant all the way until level 20. Arguably it just gets better and better, in fact.
- When it matters, it really matters, and it will often matter in the most difficult fights.
- You can also counter enemies counterspell with it.
So is it good? Yes. Are you gonna use it as often as something like conjure animals or foreball? No. Will you be happy you have it when you need it? Yes. Is it mandatory? No. Is it overrated, and its limitations overlooked? I think so.
Counterspell is overpowered when on casters that can dimension door / misty step / teleport. It completely shuts down casters who don't have access to that spell. Spirit Guardians have NOTHING on that! Spell fights are won by counterspell, they aren't won merely by initiative because counterspell is a reaction.
It isn't a bard spell, so no having it on a bard is not mandatory - clearly it can't be. A Lore bard could get it at level 6 however any other flavour bard has to wait until level 10 and there are many other spells that complete with it. Revivify is another really good choice if you don't have someone in the party already that can cast it.
Counterspell is particularly good on Bards because it's an ability check, and Bards get Jack of All Trades as standard adding half proficiency to it. You can also use Enhance Ability on Charisma if you're expecting to face a spellcaster, at which point it's suddenly a super reliable option.
Is it mandatory? Absolutely not. I also don't think it's as broken as many people claim; it's worth keeping in mind that Counterspell has drawbacks:
Firstly, it's a 3rd level or higher spell; the higher level of magic you're facing, the higher level a slot you need to burn to cancel it outright, and every enemy spell you negate is another spell you can't cast yourself, so it's not like the enemy has gotten nothing out of it. As a Bard you can use a lower level and just accept the check (probably having stacked it in your favour) but a canny DM can still tempt you into draining your slots at an alarming rate.
Second, it has a range limit; you can only countespell spells within 60 feet of you, and only if you can see the caster. If that enemy casts Fireball from 61 feet away, or breaks line of sight with you first, then you've got nothing.
Third, the DM is under no obligation to tell you what your enemies are casting; strictly speaking it's a reaction if you want to take an Arcana check to identify a spell that's being cast, which means you can't also counterspell it. Only once you've seen it used by that enemy can you Counterspell it while knowing what it is; the rest of the time all the DM has to do is tell you what's happening visually, i.e- you know the enemy is casting something but have no idea how dangerous or what level unless the DM makes it absolutely clear. A DM may also argue that seeing a spell being cast by a human, might not allow you to know when that same spell is being cast by something else, or they could have you make a Perception check to see if you even notice a crucial clue as to what spell it might be and so-on. A DM has a lot of ways they can limit abuse if they need to.
Fourth, it is itself a spell. If your enemy also has counterspell, then they can counterspell your counterspell. If you're abusing counterspell in a campaign you should 100% expect to trigger an arms race with your DM.
Lastly, it's absolutely zero use against enemies that don't cast magic, or only have magic-like abilities (if it doesn't say spell, it's not a spell).
One side issue with counterspell is how you portray it in game; because of the way it works mechanically it's easy to think of it as a snap of the fingers and the spell ends, which is boring. But you're actually putting a lot of magical power into shutting down an enemy spell so it shouldn't be thought of that way, I like to imagine two opposed blasts of magical energy annihilating each other, and if you can make it narratively interesting I think it avoids it sucking the fun out of a fight. However, on that issue, there is something to be said for letting enemies cast their dang spells sometimes, because otherwise where's the challenge or adversity to overcome?
I currently have a Bard character in a campaign that just went on temporary hiatus while we play a separate Frostmaiden campaign, and right before we stopped he just levelled up to where he can take his first two Magical Secrets, and I've been agonising over this very choice ever since. If I take Counterspell it means I can't take something else that I find thematically more interesting, as I'm very much leaning into my bard's tiefling ancestry for most magical picks. I really want to take Armor of Agathys (with cold swapped for fire) after which it's currently a choice between Counterspell and Dragon's Breath. The former is certainly a better fit for my extra flimsy bard, and more generally useful, but Dragon's Breath is Dragon's Breath, so it's not a simple choice 😉
I have played for years and can count on one hand the number of counterspells I've seen. Our table just has more enthusiasm for other spells. We also tend to run high INT spellcasters as if they were actually intelligent - any high-level caster is going to know the range/sight limitations of counterspell and play accordingly to get those key spells off.
Not saying this to argue that it's not the best pick. It's the most effective choice in a lot of campaigns, but I'd never make a new player take it just because of that. You will be okay if you choose something else. And even if you do take it, the usefulness varies greatly from table to table. It may become one of those things that you use so infrequently that you forget you have it when the chance actually comes up.
Counterspell is particularly good on Bards because it's an ability check, and Bards get Jack of All Trades as standard adding half proficiency to it. You can also use Enhance Ability on Charisma if you're expecting to face a spellcaster, at which point it's suddenly a super reliable option.
Is it mandatory? Absolutely not. I also don't think it's as broken as many people claim; it's worth keeping in mind that Counterspell has drawbacks:
Firstly, it's a 3rd level or higher spell; the higher level of magic you're facing, the higher level a slot you need to burn to cancel it outright, and every enemy spell you negate is another spell you can't cast yourself, so it's not like the enemy has gotten nothing out of it. As a Bard you can use a lower level and just accept the check (probably having stacked it in your favour) but a canny DM can still tempt you into draining your slots at an alarming rate.
Second, it has a range limit; you can only countespell spells within 60 feet of you, and only if you can see the caster. If that enemy casts Fireball from 61 feet away, or breaks line of sight with you first, then you've got nothing.
Third, the DM is under no obligation to tell you what your enemies are casting; strictly speaking it's a reaction if you want to take an Arcana check to identify a spell that's being cast, which means you can't also counterspell it. Only once you've seen it used by that enemy can you Counterspell it while knowing what it is; the rest of the time all the DM has to do is tell you what's happening visually, i.e- you know the enemy is casting something but have no idea how dangerous or what level unless the DM makes it absolutely clear. A DM may also argue that seeing a spell being cast by a human, might not allow you to know when that same spell is being cast by something else, or they could have you make a Perception check to see if you even notice a crucial clue as to what spell it might be and so-on. A DM has a lot of ways they can limit abuse if they need to.
Fourth, it is itself a spell. If your enemy also has counterspell, then they can counterspell your counterspell. If you're abusing counterspell in a campaign you should 100% expect to trigger an arms race with your DM.
Lastly, it's absolutely zero use against enemies that don't cast magic, or only have magic-like abilities (if it doesn't say spell, it's not a spell).
One side issue with counterspell is how you portray it in game; because of the way it works mechanically it's easy to think of it as a snap of the fingers and the spell ends, which is boring. But you're actually putting a lot of magical power into shutting down an enemy spell so it shouldn't be thought of that way, I like to imagine two opposed blasts of magical energy annihilating each other, and if you can make it narratively interesting I think it avoids it sucking the fun out of a fight. However, on that issue, there is something to be said for letting enemies cast their dang spells sometimes, because otherwise where's the challenge or adversity to overcome?
I currently have a Bard character in a campaign that just went on temporary hiatus while we play a separate Frostmaiden campaign, and right before we stopped he just levelled up to where he can take his first two Magical Secrets, and I've been agonising over this very choice ever since. If I take Counterspell it means I can't take something else that I find thematically more interesting, as I'm very much leaning into my bard's tiefling ancestry for most magical picks. I really want to take Armor of Agathys (with cold swapped for fire) after which it's currently a choice between Counterspell and Dragon's Breath. The former is certainly a better fit for my extra flimsy bard, and more generally useful, but Dragon's Breath is Dragon's Breath, so it's not a simple choice 😉
Enhance ability isn't even exclusive to a bard. It's glibness much later. Sorcerers (and wizards as of Tasha's) have enhance ability as well.
I'd argue subtle and distant metamagics make sorcerers the better counterspeller in a magic duel. It's just the same issue where it's a niche move.
The lure is less about denying an action and more about denying a highly significant action. I skip counterspell on bards. To many other useful options compete for spells known. At least wizards can swap it in or out when they know what's coming.
I have played for years and can count on one hand the number of counterspells I've seen.
In one game I am playing we went up against a group of big bad evil spell casters (3) along with undead and cultist minions. They were in the middle of a world ending ritual it seemed to us and we had sneaked in unnoticed. I supernova’d on the main ritual leader, got almost max damage and knocked him down to just 11 hp remaining (we didn’t know that at the time). After that his buddy kept counterspelling me each round. The upshot was that he could have cast 3 fireballs but didn’t as he used his slots on counterspell - he even used it against my cantrip which was great! It was both frustrating that I couldn’t get my spells off but at the same time it was exactly what my character has been designed to do, lock down casters and debuff / control the battlefield.
Enhance ability isn't even exclusive to a bard. It's glibness much later. Sorcerers (and wizards as of Tasha's) have enhance ability as well.
I'd argue subtle and distant metamagics make sorcerers the better counterspeller in a magic duel. It's just the same issue where it's a niche move.
Oh, I didn't actually say Enhance Ability was unique to Bards but I can see how it would come across as implied; the point I was trying to make is that it's the combo with Jack of All Trades that allows it to be silly as the two together mean you can pretty reliably shut down even high level spells with lower level counterspell as a Bard, plus without enhance ability you're still getting a bonus to it at zero additional cost.
In terms of a magical duel you're right, but it's costing resources to do that with a sorcerer; the reason counterspell can be an easy pick for a Bard is that many players will be more inclined to lean towards a support role and counterspell does fit that, plus Jack of All Trades is a zero cost boost that makes it even easier for you to be the one to take it. It could just be me, but also during my spell choice, as a Sorcerer it's more along the lines of "how can I do more damage, muahahaha" and as a Bard it's "what spell will help my allies the most" and that makes a spell that can literally prevent the entire party from suffering any ill effect at all quite tempting.
For me the other obvious choice in a group to take counterspell would be a wizard since they're not losing anything by taking it as they can swap it out whenever they want (well, on a long rest), whereas Bards and Sorcerers are stuck with it until a level up if you decide you're not actually using it enough.
But yeah, it's way more limited than a lot of people realise, definitely not broken, and definitely not mandatory.
Always, always take whatever fits your character's theme the best; that should always be the first consideration, and I think I have talked myself into Dragon's Breath after all (because Habard Ashery is a tiefling who would 100% want to be able to breathe fire).
I have played for years and can count on one hand the number of counterspells I've seen.
In one game I am playing we went up against a group of big bad evil spell casters (3) along with undead and cultist minions. They were in the middle of a world ending ritual it seemed to us and we had sneaked in unnoticed. I supernova’d on the main ritual leader, got almost max damage and knocked him down to just 11 hp remaining (we didn’t know that at the time). After that his buddy kept counterspelling me each round. The upshot was that he could have cast 3 fireballs but didn’t as he used his slots on counterspell - he even used it against my cantrip which was great! It was both frustrating that I couldn’t get my spells off but at the same time it was exactly what my character has been designed to do, lock down casters and debuff / control the battlefield.
Nice. As a DM I am hesitant to use Counterspell on the party too much, but that's a great example of how it can really ratchet up the tension of a battle.
1) There are ways to beat counterspell - quite a few. My personal favorite is doing this:
"Does anyone speak Undercommon? (I already know the answer is no). No? The drow says something in a language you don't understand and gestures oddly. Is he pointing at something? No, he just finished casting a spell, too bad it has already completed. You have to Counterspell as he casts, not after the spell completes." Works only once or twice, but fun to do.
There are also counter-counter spell, and of course, Globe of Invunerability.
2) Counterspell is a very good 3rd level spell, but there is also Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern. Not to mention Fly, Haste, and Revivfy. Lots of good 3rd level spells, not an automatic selection as a Bard's first "any spell you want" choice.
1) There are ways to beat counterspell - quite a few. My personal favorite is doing this:
"Does anyone speak Undercommon? (I already know the answer is no). No? The drow says something in a language you don't understand and gestures oddly. Is he pointing at something? No, he just finished casting a spell, too bad it has already completed. You have to Counterspell as he casts, not after the spell completes." Works only once or twice, but fun to do.
There are also counter-counter spell, and of course, Globe of Invunerability.
2) Counterspell is a very good 3rd level spell, but there is also Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern. Not to mention Fly, Haste, and Revivfy. Lots of good 3rd level spells, not an automatic selection as a Bard's first "any spell you want" choice.
1) That's promoting hostile dm vs player attitude. It is you, the dm, tricking the players, not your NPCs outsmarting their PCs. You might think that is fun, but it's gonna piss players off. If you did that in my game, I would be looking for a new DM before you finushed the last sentance.
I'm a brand new d&d player, as in I've been playing for a little over a week. I'm playing a bard who is going to go into the college of lore and want to plan ahead on what magical secrets to take. Just about everywhere I look, people are saying counterspell is basically mandatory. I still don't know all the game mechanics, and I'm wondering why people think it is so good.
(Also yes, my name is kind of lame...)
If anyone has any other tips for a brand new bard player, I'd love to hear them.
Thanks!
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Counterspell is borderline broken in 5e. Using your reaction to negate an enemy's turn is a no-brainer. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's mandatory. You may not fight a lot of spellcasters (that depends on your DM and the adventure) and I don't think it's fair to put that pressure on the bard if none of the other players were willing to play a class that has access to it either. Definitely consider it, but I doubt anyone will blame if you wanted to take Find Greater Steed instead.
The other reason counterspell is great for bards is Glibness, but that's a long ways off.
Like Coder said, it's not really a mandatory for you to take it, but it can be amazingly effective. Since you're a Lore Bard, you get 2 more magical secrets than any other bard and Counterspell is a usual pick for your 6th level magical secrets. With Jack of All Trades and Peerless Skill at level 14, there is a very good chance you can counter any spell.
The reason every likes this spell so much is because it can alter the flow of a battle with a well placed counter. Enemy Spellcaster is about to Meteor Storm your entire party, Boom Counterspell, and it never happens. Enemy Spellcaster just lost their 9th level spell slot and you may have only lost a 3rd level. So this can make you destroy all the enemy high level spell slots by only expending low level ones.
And just to point out, Find Greater Steed isn't a spell you can take till Level 10, but Counterspell is one you can take at 6th. As for other possible magical secrets that you might want to take would depend on the kind of character you're looking to build.
As someone who plays a Bard, I believe it is a top pick for a Lore Bard at level 6. The reason it is great is because in round one, you can shut down what the other team wants to do to "Shape the Battle". Every party falls into a groove where they do this and that at the start of the battle and they pick and choose weapons, spells, abilities, even marching order for the party, based on this. If you are able to use your reaction to shut down the other party's setup, you can get off to a good jump. But this benefit comes at the cost of using another spell slot on turn 1.
I haven't played a high level Bard yet and I am a little skeptical of the claim that a Bard, using a level 3 spell can shut down everything the opponents are doing. First, your bard can only do this once per round and only when they haven't used their reaction for something else. If the other party has multiple spellcasters, then they have opportunities to use their other spells. Second, a bard can't do this indefinitely. Spell slots get used up so it isn't going to last forever. Third, there is a debate about what the Bard knows before he casts his Counterspell. Does the bard even know what he is Counterspelling? Is he Counterspelling Bane or Fireball? Big difference. Third, many attacks that sound like spells are not in fact spells, so they can't be counterspelled.
If you are just starting out, you should get a feel for what is going on and if you think Counterspell is the right choice when you get to level 6 then take it. But I have a hard time coming up with two spells I would rather have that are not already on the Bard spell list.
So, to the OP I say 1) e4!
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Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: Absolutely. Lol. Like others have mentioned, it has a lot to do with the idea of action economy. Using your reaction to trade with a monster's action is a very favorable exchange. The more you can limit the opponent's relevant actions, the closer you get to victory. This strength is exacerbated because spells are generally more powerful than attacks in DnD. You are often trading a single reaction for the haymaker the enemy was hoping would turn the tide of battle.
The reason it appears to be so pervasive on the Bard (and especially the lore bard with those level 6 magical secrets) is because they have the strongest counterspell in the game besides the Abjuration wizard. The key to this is that to counterspell a spell of 4th level or higher you have to make an ability check against the targeted spell's level + 10. This ability check does not include your proficiency bonus. Why is that important? Jack of All Trades. JoAT boosts your counterspell ability checks and makes it much more likely you can counterspell higher level spells.
Is it mandatory? No. Nothing in DnD is. Is it extremely powerful, and something the bard has natural synergy with? Absolutely.
My one piece of advice is that if you don't take counterspell, look for something else with a lot of raw power. The lore bard has most of its power balance resting on those 6th level magical secrets.
Thanks everyone. This info is super helpful!
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Egg
You don't need counterspell, but it's almost too good a pick not to take it. Which is part of the problem. Counterspell is, simply put, too good of a spell not to have. And I kind of hate it because of that. Previous editions got along just fine without it. I guess people think holding dispel magic is too much trouble.
Having said that, bards are excellent at using it. Thanks to Jack of All Trades, bards are better at using counterspell than anyone else; save a School of Abjuration wizard from level 10 onwards. Whenever a bard is forced to make a spellcasting ability check, it's still an ability check they're not proficient in. This means they add half their proficiency bonus to the roll.
The meteor swarm and counterspell above was a poor example. The range on meteor swarm is 1 mile while the range on counterspell is 60 feet. If some enemy spell caster wants to meteor swarm your party it's going to happen.
Range can be a serious counter just by moving out of counterspell range first before casting any spell with a range greater than 60 feet.
The PC wanting to use counterspell also needs to be able to see the opposing caster whom he or she wishes to counter. Subtle spell metamagic and improved invisibility are examples of preventing counterspell.
If your PC is within range to counter a spell then he or she is also within range to have the counterspell counterspelled allowing the initial spell to go through anyway. That works both ways and it lends to run both casters out of a limited resource faster.
Where counterspell is nice on a bard is using lower level slots against higher level spells for better attrition when both casters are counterspelling, and being able to counterspell the counterspell used against you is nice, but it's also a spell specific to certain types of opponents and useless against many other opponents.
Bestow curse will deny more actions through a single slot used against a wider variety of opponents using the 3rd application. Even crown of madness will deny at least one action against a wider variety with better range and a lower level slot. They just use a save instead of a check.
I personally find counterspell is over-rated. It's nice when you need it but there are many more things that can be done with the limited slots and limited spells known that are more universally applied.
Having said that, if you start with a variant human who takes fey touched and shadow touched at levels 1 and 4 your PC won't be behind in CHA, and has more play room for extra secrets at 6th level.
That's a refreshing take on counterspell Ashrym. And well reasoned.
I'm still a big fan of the the thing, but many other options excite me much more.
If I have one more piece of advice for you chessplayer123abc, it's to plan what you want to be your 6th level secrets at character generation. It may be hard, but it will really pay off. At least one of your secrets will most likely become a main shtick, and many of the best choices have feats that you want to take to better enable them.
Some of my favorite magic secrets (no particular order) and the feats that enable them:
1. Haste + Find Steed (probably the only second level spell I like as a secret):
Feat(s) - Mounted Combatant, Resilient (constitution), Warcaster
Casting haste while riding your steed will share the effect of the spell with it. That is one freakishly fast mount and the feat + armor class boost from haste makes it really hard to kill. You're not easy to hit yourself either. A mobile spellcaster has a lot of tactical versatility. This build wants the concentration boosting feats to better keep up haste, but doesn't necessarily need to prioritize them like the spell choices listed next. Mounted characters are pretty campaign dependent. Many settings are quite awkward for mounts. If you're really into this one I'd talk to the DM beforehand to see if you will have ample space. If not, you can still make this work but you'll have to play a small race that summons a medium sized mount. I personally love the halfling + war dog vibe, and the size really does ease playability, so this may be what you want regardless of campaign.
2. Spirit Guardians/Conjure Animals:
Feat(s) - Resilient (constitution), Warcaster.
These spells (along with hypnotic pattern) are likely the most powerful 3rd level spells in the game. I personally don't recommend a new player attempt to manage the summons of conjure animals until they're more familiar with the game as it takes a lot of preparation and game familiarity to run without disrupting the flow of a session. But, I have it here for completeness because this is my "crazy powerful concentration spell" slot. Your other secret can be whatever you want, but whichever one of these you take will be your main shtick once you unlock it. Here, the race is very important. You really want to be a variant human (or the new custom race from Tasha's) for the first level feat so that you can pick up both feats that boost your concentration saves before level 6. I cannot stress this enough. These spells are so good that all you care about is maintaining concentration once they have been cast.
Conjure Animals is a beast. Remember how counterspell has favorable action economy? Conjure Animals is the king of action economy. Imagine putting eight more pawns on your board in the middle of the game.
Spirit Guardians is also incredible and one of my favorite spells in the game. It's also much easier to use than conjure animals. It's basically a blender. Cast it and watch everything around you melt with passive damage round after round. Besides mechanics, I think this spell has awesome flavor potential. Who would your spirits be?
3. Fireball/Lightning Bolt
Feat(s) - none
Quintessential blasting spells, something the bard list is mostly lacking. Sometimes some good, quick damage is all you need. Blasting is generally considered inferior to battlefield control, but it certainly isn't bad. Fireball is a bit better, but honestly, Lightning Bolt has plenty of use cases that trump its big brother because of space issues and friendly fire. Not to mention being the less commonly resisted damage type. You could take both to really jump down the blaster rabbit hole, but one will do on most any character.
4. Tiny Servant + Crusader's Mantle:
Feat(s) - Resilient (constitution), Warcaster
More of the same feats, but that's because this involves another concentration spell. Still, they're not nearly as important as they are on the conjure animals or spirit guardians bard. This is a super fun combo that takes a while to get set up. You may want to wait to pick up tiny servant with a 10th level magic secret because this combination only gets interesting when you can upcast tiny servant in a higher level spell slots. Tiny servant turns one tiny inanimate object into a little friend that fights for you, and makes two more for each spell level beyond its original. The beauty of this "summon" spell is that it lacks concentration, which means you can cast crusader's mantle to boost your whole squad of trinket soldiers and any other allies that happen to be within the aura. The spell also lasts 8 hours. Cast it at the beginning of the day and then stow all of your buddies on your person ready to spring an attack. This isn't better than spirit guardians by any means, but the flavor is wonderful.
I think counterspell is good, but overrated. It has severve limitations:
- You don't know what spell the enemy are casting. At 6th level wasting a precious 3rd level slot to counter a low impact spell is a serious cost.
- You may go through plenty of adventuring days that you never cast it, if you don't encounter casters.
- Range is low and it requires sight. That means you will probably have to stay a lot closer to the enemy that you would otherwise. You also cant go into full cover. This means you might end up attacked and loose concentration on your own spell (or worse) because you wanted to counter an enemy spell (that might end up being low impact). This is serious, but generally ignored, I think.
Why is it still a good pick?
- It is the only spell in the game that does what it does.
- It will stay relevant all the way until level 20. Arguably it just gets better and better, in fact.
- When it matters, it really matters, and it will often matter in the most difficult fights.
- You can also counter enemies counterspell with it.
So is it good? Yes. Are you gonna use it as often as something like conjure animals or foreball? No. Will you be happy you have it when you need it? Yes. Is it mandatory? No. Is it overrated, and its limitations overlooked? I think so.
Counterspell is overpowered when on casters that can dimension door / misty step / teleport. It completely shuts down casters who don't have access to that spell. Spirit Guardians have NOTHING on that! Spell fights are won by counterspell, they aren't won merely by initiative because counterspell is a reaction.
It isn't a bard spell, so no having it on a bard is not mandatory - clearly it can't be. A Lore bard could get it at level 6 however any other flavour bard has to wait until level 10 and there are many other spells that complete with it. Revivify is another really good choice if you don't have someone in the party already that can cast it.
Counterspell is particularly good on Bards because it's an ability check, and Bards get Jack of All Trades as standard adding half proficiency to it. You can also use Enhance Ability on Charisma if you're expecting to face a spellcaster, at which point it's suddenly a super reliable option.
Is it mandatory? Absolutely not. I also don't think it's as broken as many people claim; it's worth keeping in mind that Counterspell has drawbacks:
Firstly, it's a 3rd level or higher spell; the higher level of magic you're facing, the higher level a slot you need to burn to cancel it outright, and every enemy spell you negate is another spell you can't cast yourself, so it's not like the enemy has gotten nothing out of it. As a Bard you can use a lower level and just accept the check (probably having stacked it in your favour) but a canny DM can still tempt you into draining your slots at an alarming rate.
Second, it has a range limit; you can only countespell spells within 60 feet of you, and only if you can see the caster. If that enemy casts Fireball from 61 feet away, or breaks line of sight with you first, then you've got nothing.
Third, the DM is under no obligation to tell you what your enemies are casting; strictly speaking it's a reaction if you want to take an Arcana check to identify a spell that's being cast, which means you can't also counterspell it. Only once you've seen it used by that enemy can you Counterspell it while knowing what it is; the rest of the time all the DM has to do is tell you what's happening visually, i.e- you know the enemy is casting something but have no idea how dangerous or what level unless the DM makes it absolutely clear. A DM may also argue that seeing a spell being cast by a human, might not allow you to know when that same spell is being cast by something else, or they could have you make a Perception check to see if you even notice a crucial clue as to what spell it might be and so-on. A DM has a lot of ways they can limit abuse if they need to.
Fourth, it is itself a spell. If your enemy also has counterspell, then they can counterspell your counterspell. If you're abusing counterspell in a campaign you should 100% expect to trigger an arms race with your DM.
Lastly, it's absolutely zero use against enemies that don't cast magic, or only have magic-like abilities (if it doesn't say spell, it's not a spell).
One side issue with counterspell is how you portray it in game; because of the way it works mechanically it's easy to think of it as a snap of the fingers and the spell ends, which is boring. But you're actually putting a lot of magical power into shutting down an enemy spell so it shouldn't be thought of that way, I like to imagine two opposed blasts of magical energy annihilating each other, and if you can make it narratively interesting I think it avoids it sucking the fun out of a fight. However, on that issue, there is something to be said for letting enemies cast their dang spells sometimes, because otherwise where's the challenge or adversity to overcome?
I currently have a Bard character in a campaign that just went on temporary hiatus while we play a separate Frostmaiden campaign, and right before we stopped he just levelled up to where he can take his first two Magical Secrets, and I've been agonising over this very choice ever since. If I take Counterspell it means I can't take something else that I find thematically more interesting, as I'm very much leaning into my bard's tiefling ancestry for most magical picks. I really want to take Armor of Agathys (with cold swapped for fire) after which it's currently a choice between Counterspell and Dragon's Breath. The former is certainly a better fit for my extra flimsy bard, and more generally useful, but Dragon's Breath is Dragon's Breath, so it's not a simple choice 😉
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I have played for years and can count on one hand the number of counterspells I've seen. Our table just has more enthusiasm for other spells. We also tend to run high INT spellcasters as if they were actually intelligent - any high-level caster is going to know the range/sight limitations of counterspell and play accordingly to get those key spells off.
Not saying this to argue that it's not the best pick. It's the most effective choice in a lot of campaigns, but I'd never make a new player take it just because of that. You will be okay if you choose something else. And even if you do take it, the usefulness varies greatly from table to table. It may become one of those things that you use so infrequently that you forget you have it when the chance actually comes up.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Enhance ability isn't even exclusive to a bard. It's glibness much later. Sorcerers (and wizards as of Tasha's) have enhance ability as well.
I'd argue subtle and distant metamagics make sorcerers the better counterspeller in a magic duel. It's just the same issue where it's a niche move.
The lure is less about denying an action and more about denying a highly significant action. I skip counterspell on bards. To many other useful options compete for spells known. At least wizards can swap it in or out when they know what's coming.
In one game I am playing we went up against a group of big bad evil spell casters (3) along with undead and cultist minions. They were in the middle of a world ending ritual it seemed to us and we had sneaked in unnoticed. I supernova’d on the main ritual leader, got almost max damage and knocked him down to just 11 hp remaining (we didn’t know that at the time). After that his buddy kept counterspelling me each round. The upshot was that he could have cast 3 fireballs but didn’t as he used his slots on counterspell - he even used it against my cantrip which was great! It was both frustrating that I couldn’t get my spells off but at the same time it was exactly what my character has been designed to do, lock down casters and debuff / control the battlefield.
Oh, I didn't actually say Enhance Ability was unique to Bards but I can see how it would come across as implied; the point I was trying to make is that it's the combo with Jack of All Trades that allows it to be silly as the two together mean you can pretty reliably shut down even high level spells with lower level counterspell as a Bard, plus without enhance ability you're still getting a bonus to it at zero additional cost.
In terms of a magical duel you're right, but it's costing resources to do that with a sorcerer; the reason counterspell can be an easy pick for a Bard is that many players will be more inclined to lean towards a support role and counterspell does fit that, plus Jack of All Trades is a zero cost boost that makes it even easier for you to be the one to take it. It could just be me, but also during my spell choice, as a Sorcerer it's more along the lines of "how can I do more damage, muahahaha" and as a Bard it's "what spell will help my allies the most" and that makes a spell that can literally prevent the entire party from suffering any ill effect at all quite tempting.
For me the other obvious choice in a group to take counterspell would be a wizard since they're not losing anything by taking it as they can swap it out whenever they want (well, on a long rest), whereas Bards and Sorcerers are stuck with it until a level up if you decide you're not actually using it enough.
But yeah, it's way more limited than a lot of people realise, definitely not broken, and definitely not mandatory.
Always, always take whatever fits your character's theme the best; that should always be the first consideration, and I think I have talked myself into Dragon's Breath after all (because Habard Ashery is a tiefling who would 100% want to be able to breathe fire).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Nice. As a DM I am hesitant to use Counterspell on the party too much, but that's a great example of how it can really ratchet up the tension of a battle.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
1) There are ways to beat counterspell - quite a few. My personal favorite is doing this:
"Does anyone speak Undercommon? (I already know the answer is no). No? The drow says something in a language you don't understand and gestures oddly. Is he pointing at something? No, he just finished casting a spell, too bad it has already completed. You have to Counterspell as he casts, not after the spell completes." Works only once or twice, but fun to do.
There are also counter-counter spell, and of course, Globe of Invunerability.
2) Counterspell is a very good 3rd level spell, but there is also Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern. Not to mention Fly, Haste, and Revivfy. Lots of good 3rd level spells, not an automatic selection as a Bard's first "any spell you want" choice.
1) That's promoting hostile dm vs player attitude. It is you, the dm, tricking the players, not your NPCs outsmarting their PCs. You might think that is fun, but it's gonna piss players off. If you did that in my game, I would be looking for a new DM before you finushed the last sentance.