I've always liked bards; and with the new spells added to their spell list, I've been entertaining coming back to them at some point for a character I've had on the back-burner a bit...sort of a diplomat character who charms, talks, or otherwise beguiles there way through situations in a refined way.
They'd be a lady aasimar...violet-skinned, silver-eyed, raven-haired...occasionally with black wings...so they definitely strike a memorable picture...my only stumbling point is the subclass of bard.
Both the "College of Eloquence" and the "College of Glamour" have a lot going for them...considered to be the "bardiest" bards since Lore Bard, both of these subclasses involve putting the whammy on onlookers...it's just that one does it through beauty & charm; and the other does it through words & persuasion.
It's a bare-knuckle battle between pathos & logos.
I've been itching to try an Eloquence Bard...I like the kind of character who can reliably bullsh*t their way through trouble; and their "Silver Tongue" ability provides just that safety net; guaranteeing a minimal roll of 10 for their Persuasion or Deception checks.
That, and their "Unsettling Words" seem INCREDIBLY potent...after all, substracting a roll from your "Bardic Inspiration" die from an enemy's next saving throw can be HUGE....it provides a decent way to ensure that those "save-or-suck" spells manage to affect their target.
The ability to stack Bardic Inspiration on your allies when they succeed on their rolls, coupled with a medieval Google-translate, is just icing atop an already delicious cake.
...but Glamour Bard isn't messing around, either: it's been a heavy-hitter ever since "Xanathar's Guide" came out.
A reliable way to boost your allies & re-position them on the battlefield, ala "Mantle of Inspiration"..."Enthralling Performance" is a fun social-tool that can your Bard an excuse to use their artistic expression to influence NPC's..."Mantle of Majesty" is a bonus-action "Command" spell that can really give some "Oomph" to your crowd-control (and now Bard's can use "Command" as an Action, too...so you're pretty much barking orders at all times).
...and finally, "Unbreakable Majesty".
This is a HUGELY amazing skill for Glamour Bard's: The first time an opponent tries to attack you; they have to make a Charisma-saving throw, or else they can't target you for that turn...and that goes for ANY enemy.
...and even if they make the saving throw, they get DISADVANTAGE on THEIR next saving throw against one of your spells...
...and this come back on a SHORT REST.
That's...a pretty powerful subclass capstone. I can dig it.
So in addition to trying to break my own indecision for which subclass to choose, I thought it would be cool for people to discuss the merits of both subclasses.
On paper, both seem to be VERY well equipped for influencing people; and also providing a considerable way of controlling / debuffing opponents.
What do you all think? Are we batting eye-lashes, or blowing minds?
Eloquence is the most powerfull one, but personally I would rather play glamour. Eloquence is borderline bruken.
Unsettling words is crazy strong and will make you the best controller/debuffer in the game. That is not the real issue though. Their abilty to basically succeed on any persuation check will arguably just break the social pillar of the game. It just seems really boring to me, for anyone involved.
Glamour however has a set of fun and usefull abilities. I would go with that, or just refluff the lore bard if you want logos over patos.
Eloquence Bard’s Silver Tongue is incredibly good, and if you are trying to talk your way out of most encounters, it is the best you can get. Having this level of power lets you be sure that the boring parts of a plan (like getting by some random groundskeeper) work flawlessly, but the ability does actually nothing on high dc checks, meaning the cool and important checks still require a roll, making sure that that doesn’t get boring.
Both subclasses are able to make a saving throw stick easier, but Eloquence Bard gives you that reliably that you really want with a character like this.
I'm actually not a huge fan of Elloquence. Their bardic inspiration features basically contradict each other. The ability to effectively cast tongues for free is nice, but rather niche in my games. That really just leaves Reliable Talent for persuasion and deception checks, which are nice but... I prefer advantage.
And glamour gives you that advantage with a subtle charm condition. As well, each level of Glamour plays off each other instead of clashes.
Funny how people seem to be sharing my initial feelings here...I’m conceding that Eloquence is inarguably effective (ironically), but I just seem to “like” the Glamour Bard more (also ironically).
Part of it is that the Glamour Bard doesn’t have a weak or boring feature...that, and having an emergency “Command” spell on repeat is pretty amazing (“Command” works on things that are even immune to charm...which is a major weakness of most Enchantment spells).
Perhaps I will save the Eloquence Bard for my quirky, fast-talking businessman character...Arthur Broadstroke (or “B.S.”, as his signature) ; )
The way I see it, if you have two mechanically viable options here, then instead think about flavor. Which do you think best matches the character you want to play?
The way I see it, if you have two mechanically viable options here, then instead think about flavor. Which do you think best matches the character you want to play?
Absolutely.
Both of the subclasses suit the character in their own ways...one through reputation & charisma; the other through their words.
Their mechanics have interesting things to offer; I like hearing people’s opinions of them while I mull it over. : )
Utility: With expertise in Persuasion and Deception, the Eloquence Bard turns a Nat 1 on the die into a 17 at level 3, and a 20 at level 5 if you have 18 charisma.
Combat Mechanics: Debuff enemy saving throws by 1d6 as a bonus action, meaning, you can debuff then cast a spell on them in the same turn. This is using your Inspiration Dice, so the debuff scales as you level up.
This is all just at level 3. The rest of the abilities are also, ALL really good. Mechanically the Eloquence Bard envies no other subclass, except getting 2 magic secrets at level 6 is really nice for the Lore Bard. But in total, the Eloquence Bard is king of the hill.
Having played with a Glamour bard, Mantle of Inspiration got us out of multiple tight spots - the ability for the whole party to move on the bard's turn can be pretty huge.
Enthralling Performance was fun, but it was hard to find a situation where we could leverage it to our benefit. So it kind of just felt like what most DM's would give any bard who made a good Performance check - a few fans that fawn over you as you ham it up. Oftentimes the NPC who doesn't want to talk also doesn't want to sit and watch you play for 1 minute.
We haven't made it to 6 yet, but I expect the command spam will be really powerful. It does prevent you from casting any other leveled spells though, and I could see a well-placed Hypnotic Pattern or Confusion making it somewhat redundant in the fights that matter most.
As for Eloquence breaking social encounters, as a DM I think this would actually be fairly fun. Persuasion doesn't fix everything, so it would be interesting to see what kind of situations the party gets into when they find they've persuaded themselves in over their heads. Persuasion is not the same thing as charm - it has limits and hitting those limits could create some fun scenarios that you wouldn't otherwise experience.
Having played with a Glamour bard, Mantle of Inspiration got us out of multiple tight spots - the ability for the whole party to move on the bard's turn can be pretty huge.
Enthralling Performance was fun, but it was hard to find a situation where we could leverage it to our benefit. So it kind of just felt like what most DM's would give any bard who made a good Performance check - a few fans that fawn over you as you ham it up. Oftentimes the NPC who doesn't want to talk also doesn't want to sit and watch you play for 1 minute.
We haven't made it to 6 yet, but I expect the command spam will be really powerful. It does prevent you from casting any other leveled spells though, and I could see a well-placed Hypnotic Pattern or Confusion making it somewhat redundant in the fights that matter most.
As for Eloquence breaking social encounters, as a DM I think this would actually be fairly fun. Persuasion doesn't fix everything, so it would be interesting to see what kind of situations the party gets into when they find they've persuaded themselves in over their heads. Persuasion is not the same thing as charm - it has limits and hitting those limits could create some fun scenarios that you wouldn't otherwise experience.
A lot of people think Eloquence Bard is just a social encounter machine, but their Cutting Words ability is extremely effective in combat. As for social encounters, some people don't realize that if Silver Tongue takes low rolls to 17.... that's great, but it's mathematically just as hard to roll a 20 or 25 as it is for any other Bard. Many DM's don't actually scale difficulty levels based on the chart. They'll make all DC's a 15 or 20. If the DM is running things this way, the Eloquence Bard is just going to steamroll all social encounters. DC's should be realistic to the situation, even if that means it should be a DC 25 or 30. Or especially if it's just a literally impossible task - in which case the DM should say "No. It is impossible to convince the king to surrender his kingdom to you."
Yeah I wasn't advocating against the effectiveness of Eloquence, I just spoke about Glamour to share my experiences with it. I haven't played with an Eloquence bard, but I agree Cutting Words looks to be a top-tier ability.
And yeah, my comment that persuasion is not charm echoes your sentiment about impossible tasks. I wouldn't allow a persuasion check to get a seat on the King's council in session 1 any more than I'd allow an Athletics check to lift a castle.
Yeah I wasn't advocating against the effectiveness of Eloquence, I just spoke about Glamour to share my experiences with it. I haven't played with an Eloquence bard, but I agree Cutting Words looks to be a top-tier ability.
And yeah, my comment that persuasion is not charm echoes your sentiment about impossible tasks. I wouldn't allow a persuasion check to get a seat on the King's council in session 1 any more than I'd allow an Athletics check to lift a castle.
All good :) That was more a general PSA than something directed at you, even though I quoted you. Bards in general are great.
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I've always liked bards; and with the new spells added to their spell list, I've been entertaining coming back to them at some point for a character I've had on the back-burner a bit...sort of a diplomat character who charms, talks, or otherwise beguiles there way through situations in a refined way.
They'd be a lady aasimar...violet-skinned, silver-eyed, raven-haired...occasionally with black wings...so they definitely strike a memorable picture...my only stumbling point is the subclass of bard.
Both the "College of Eloquence" and the "College of Glamour" have a lot going for them...considered to be the "bardiest" bards since Lore Bard, both of these subclasses involve putting the whammy on onlookers...it's just that one does it through beauty & charm; and the other does it through words & persuasion.
It's a bare-knuckle battle between pathos & logos.
I've been itching to try an Eloquence Bard...I like the kind of character who can reliably bullsh*t their way through trouble; and their "Silver Tongue" ability provides just that safety net; guaranteeing a minimal roll of 10 for their Persuasion or Deception checks.
That, and their "Unsettling Words" seem INCREDIBLY potent...after all, substracting a roll from your "Bardic Inspiration" die from an enemy's next saving throw can be HUGE....it provides a decent way to ensure that those "save-or-suck" spells manage to affect their target.
The ability to stack Bardic Inspiration on your allies when they succeed on their rolls, coupled with a medieval Google-translate, is just icing atop an already delicious cake.
...but Glamour Bard isn't messing around, either: it's been a heavy-hitter ever since "Xanathar's Guide" came out.
A reliable way to boost your allies & re-position them on the battlefield, ala "Mantle of Inspiration"..."Enthralling Performance" is a fun social-tool that can your Bard an excuse to use their artistic expression to influence NPC's..."Mantle of Majesty" is a bonus-action "Command" spell that can really give some "Oomph" to your crowd-control (and now Bard's can use "Command" as an Action, too...so you're pretty much barking orders at all times).
...and finally, "Unbreakable Majesty".
This is a HUGELY amazing skill for Glamour Bard's: The first time an opponent tries to attack you; they have to make a Charisma-saving throw, or else they can't target you for that turn...and that goes for ANY enemy.
...and even if they make the saving throw, they get DISADVANTAGE on THEIR next saving throw against one of your spells...
...and this come back on a SHORT REST.
That's...a pretty powerful subclass capstone. I can dig it.
So in addition to trying to break my own indecision for which subclass to choose, I thought it would be cool for people to discuss the merits of both subclasses.
On paper, both seem to be VERY well equipped for influencing people; and also providing a considerable way of controlling / debuffing opponents.
What do you all think? Are we batting eye-lashes, or blowing minds?
Eloquence is the most powerfull one, but personally I would rather play glamour. Eloquence is borderline bruken.
Unsettling words is crazy strong and will make you the best controller/debuffer in the game. That is not the real issue though. Their abilty to basically succeed on any persuation check will arguably just break the social pillar of the game. It just seems really boring to me, for anyone involved.
Glamour however has a set of fun and usefull abilities. I would go with that, or just refluff the lore bard if you want logos over patos.
I think I agree. Eloquence seems more numerically effective, but Glamour seems more fun.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Eloquence Bard’s Silver Tongue is incredibly good, and if you are trying to talk your way out of most encounters, it is the best you can get. Having this level of power lets you be sure that the boring parts of a plan (like getting by some random groundskeeper) work flawlessly, but the ability does actually nothing on high dc checks, meaning the cool and important checks still require a roll, making sure that that doesn’t get boring.
Both subclasses are able to make a saving throw stick easier, but Eloquence Bard gives you that reliably that you really want with a character like this.
I'm actually not a huge fan of Elloquence. Their bardic inspiration features basically contradict each other. The ability to effectively cast tongues for free is nice, but rather niche in my games. That really just leaves Reliable Talent for persuasion and deception checks, which are nice but... I prefer advantage.
And glamour gives you that advantage with a subtle charm condition. As well, each level of Glamour plays off each other instead of clashes.
Funny how people seem to be sharing my initial feelings here...I’m conceding that Eloquence is inarguably effective (ironically), but I just seem to “like” the Glamour Bard more (also ironically).
Part of it is that the Glamour Bard doesn’t have a weak or boring feature...that, and having an emergency “Command” spell on repeat is pretty amazing (“Command” works on things that are even immune to charm...which is a major weakness of most Enchantment spells).
Perhaps I will save the Eloquence Bard for my quirky, fast-talking businessman character...Arthur Broadstroke (or “B.S.”, as his signature) ; )
The way I see it, if you have two mechanically viable options here, then instead think about flavor. Which do you think best matches the character you want to play?
Absolutely.
Both of the subclasses suit the character in their own ways...one through reputation & charisma; the other through their words.
Their mechanics have interesting things to offer; I like hearing people’s opinions of them while I mull it over. : )
This is no contest.
Utility: With expertise in Persuasion and Deception, the Eloquence Bard turns a Nat 1 on the die into a 17 at level 3, and a 20 at level 5 if you have 18 charisma.
Combat Mechanics: Debuff enemy saving throws by 1d6 as a bonus action, meaning, you can debuff then cast a spell on them in the same turn. This is using your Inspiration Dice, so the debuff scales as you level up.
This is all just at level 3. The rest of the abilities are also, ALL really good. Mechanically the Eloquence Bard envies no other subclass, except getting 2 magic secrets at level 6 is really nice for the Lore Bard. But in total, the Eloquence Bard is king of the hill.
That said, lots of Bards are also good.
Having played with a Glamour bard, Mantle of Inspiration got us out of multiple tight spots - the ability for the whole party to move on the bard's turn can be pretty huge.
Enthralling Performance was fun, but it was hard to find a situation where we could leverage it to our benefit. So it kind of just felt like what most DM's would give any bard who made a good Performance check - a few fans that fawn over you as you ham it up. Oftentimes the NPC who doesn't want to talk also doesn't want to sit and watch you play for 1 minute.
We haven't made it to 6 yet, but I expect the command spam will be really powerful. It does prevent you from casting any other leveled spells though, and I could see a well-placed Hypnotic Pattern or Confusion making it somewhat redundant in the fights that matter most.
As for Eloquence breaking social encounters, as a DM I think this would actually be fairly fun. Persuasion doesn't fix everything, so it would be interesting to see what kind of situations the party gets into when they find they've persuaded themselves in over their heads. Persuasion is not the same thing as charm - it has limits and hitting those limits could create some fun scenarios that you wouldn't otherwise experience.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
A lot of people think Eloquence Bard is just a social encounter machine, but their Cutting Words ability is extremely effective in combat. As for social encounters, some people don't realize that if Silver Tongue takes low rolls to 17.... that's great, but it's mathematically just as hard to roll a 20 or 25 as it is for any other Bard. Many DM's don't actually scale difficulty levels based on the chart. They'll make all DC's a 15 or 20. If the DM is running things this way, the Eloquence Bard is just going to steamroll all social encounters. DC's should be realistic to the situation, even if that means it should be a DC 25 or 30. Or especially if it's just a literally impossible task - in which case the DM should say "No. It is impossible to convince the king to surrender his kingdom to you."
Yeah I wasn't advocating against the effectiveness of Eloquence, I just spoke about Glamour to share my experiences with it. I haven't played with an Eloquence bard, but I agree Cutting Words looks to be a top-tier ability.
And yeah, my comment that persuasion is not charm echoes your sentiment about impossible tasks. I wouldn't allow a persuasion check to get a seat on the King's council in session 1 any more than I'd allow an Athletics check to lift a castle.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
All good :) That was more a general PSA than something directed at you, even though I quoted you. Bards in general are great.