It is fairly confusing, and I'm not entirely sure.... here's my best cut:
1) The beast's calculations are actually the same as yours - strength score + proficiency bonus. The proficiency bonus by CR is given here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/mm/introduction#AbilityScores . The brown bear attacks at +6 because its STR is +4 and its proficiency is +2.
The wild shape rule says:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
So yes, when the druid's proficiency bonus is +3, the druid in brown bear shape should attack at +7 to hit (+4 from the brown bear's STR modifier, +3 from the druid's proficiency bonus).
There are some lengthy discussions and in almost all cases, everyone massively overthinks it.
The stat blocks for beasts do NOT specify the "proficiency bonus" for the beast, therefore you don't know it. Whilst many people propose ways of calculating what it would be, that's enough of a clue that this isn't how this is supposed to work.
It's actually really simple.
For ANY roll you wish to make whilst using wildshape - check the statblock of the creature in question. Then check your character sheet. Use the highest value of the two.
I'm pretty sure that it's really that simple. :)
edit: I'm really not sure it is simple, whether it was meant to be or not.
Still, the amount of maths required for "I am a druid and am turning into <insert name of beast>" shouldn't require having to look up tables, to re-calculate the stat blocks of the beast.
I find the main source of confusion is the wording used by the game designers.
If a creature (player, or monster) has for example proficiency in stealth and a reasonable dexterity ability score, it may look something like this: +3 +4 = +7
Let's examine that - you get to add:
a) Your ability score bonus (say +3 for your dexterity). b) Your proficiency bonus (say +4 for level).
The resulting total is referred to as what? Genuine question here - I don't see anywhere in the PHB that gives a name to this total value. At our table, we've used "skill bonus" or "skill total bonus" and "tool bonus"
The more I look at this, the more confusing I find it.
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast
Ok, so that is everything on the character sheet.
but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.
Alright, so we have exceptions. I am a brown bear, but I haver higher int, wis & cha scores. This means I get to recalculate the perception score I have as a bear, right?
You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
This is the real doozy, the one that everyone discusses back and forth.
So, I have proficiency in stealth on my druid (+1 dex bonus and +5 proficiency bonus for a total of +6) and turn into a giant spider, which has stealth +7 written on the stat block. The "bonus in its stat block is higher than yours" (+7 is higher than +6) so I believe the intent is to just use the +7 from the spider's stat block, not to recalculate the stealth value as +5 proficiency bonus from druid and +3 dex from spider, for a total of +8.
I really think Stormknight had it right at first, I feel like the idea (RAI) is that you just look at the stat block of the beast and your character sheet and use whichever bonus is higher for skills and saving throws. For example, a cat has +3 perception, but if your level 2 druid is proficient in it with a wisdom of 16, you might have a +5, so you should use your value. The wildshape rules don't mention anything about recalculating anything. I think RAI, The "bonus" in the sentence "...and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours..." is the total (ability mod + proficiency bonus) bonus to the roll, not just the proficiency bonus.
With that being said, the wildshape rules don't say anything about what to do with attacks/how to calculate attacks. This makes me assume that you don't have to - since that is generally the way 5e is written. You get what the stat block says, and that is all. As a moon druid, this should be accounted for by the increasing proficiency as the CR of the beasts that you transform into increases. As a non-moon druid, you really shouldn't be attacking all that much as a beast once your proficiency increases.
As another note, the sage advice tweet seems to be saying the same thing: attacks are something that you can be proficient in. If you're not proficient in a bite or claw attack as a druid then when you wildshape you just use the bonus that is in the beast stat block.
Edit: though I'm not sure on this, because it seems to me that the wildshape rules talk specifically about skills and saving throws, while the sage advice tweet seems to be trying to extend this rule to attacks, which are mentioned nowhere in wildshape rules. The more I think about it, the more I think attacks are just one of the things that come along with the sentence "Your game statistics are replaced..."
It's probably not RAW but it's not like I'm planning to recalculate a million beast stats once my proficiency bonus goes up, so I'll kind of end up doing that by default
Note that it does not mention weapon / attack proficiencies.
So you use only the beast's stats for the attack rolls. For saving throws and skills, you either use the number in its stat block or the number on your regular character sheet, whichever is higher. You do not try to math out what its bonus is and add in your own.
Example, you have Wisdom 14 and are not proficient in Perception. You would use the +3 in the bear's block. Later, you gain proficiency in Perception, and on your sheet its +5 now (+2 Wis, +3 Proficiency). You would use your character's +5 bonus instead of the bear's +3. You do NOT add +3 to the bears +1 Wisdom.
As a little coda to this, I'd like to mention that you can add wildshapes on your character sheet here on DnDbeyond and it will automatically add/balance your mental stats and skill/saving throw proficiencies with the creatures, but attack rolls are not affected.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I was wondering how it worked exactly. If I have a plus 6 at later levels, how does this effect a Brown Bear plus six to hit, for example?
It is fairly confusing, and I'm not entirely sure.... here's my best cut:
1) The beast's calculations are actually the same as yours - strength score + proficiency bonus. The proficiency bonus by CR is given here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/mm/introduction#AbilityScores . The brown bear attacks at +6 because its STR is +4 and its proficiency is +2.
The wild shape rule says:
According to https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/ , the druid gets to use their proficiency bonus in wild shape unless the beast's is already higher.
So yes, when the druid's proficiency bonus is +3, the druid in brown bear shape should attack at +7 to hit (+4 from the brown bear's STR modifier, +3 from the druid's proficiency bonus).
This has been discussed at https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/2919-wild-shape-proficiency in the past, and I don't think it's completely clear to me because some monsters don't quite follow the normal rules for figuring out their bonuses...
There are some lengthy discussions and in almost all cases, everyone massively overthinks it.
The stat blocks for beasts do NOT specify the "proficiency bonus" for the beast, therefore you don't know it. Whilst many people propose ways of calculating what it would be, that's enough of a clue that this isn't how this is supposed to work.
It's actually really simple.For ANY roll you wish to make whilst using wildshape - check the statblock of the creature in question. Then check your character sheet. Use the highest value of the two.I'm pretty sure that it's really that simple. :)
edit: I'm really not sure it is simple, whether it was meant to be or not.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
The monster manual specifies proficiency bonuses by challenge rating. So you do know.
Ah true, I had forgotten that.
Still, the amount of maths required for "I am a druid and am turning into <insert name of beast>" shouldn't require having to look up tables, to re-calculate the stat blocks of the beast.
I find the main source of confusion is the wording used by the game designers.
If a creature (player, or monster) has for example proficiency in stealth and a reasonable dexterity ability score, it may look something like this: +3 +4 = +7
Let's examine that - you get to add:
a) Your ability score bonus (say +3 for your dexterity).
b) Your proficiency bonus (say +4 for level).
The resulting total is referred to as what? Genuine question here - I don't see anywhere in the PHB that gives a name to this total value. At our table, we've used "skill bonus" or "skill total bonus" and "tool bonus"
The more I look at this, the more confusing I find it.
Wild Shape says:
Ok, so that is everything on the character sheet.
Alright, so we have exceptions. I am a brown bear, but I haver higher int, wis & cha scores. This means I get to recalculate the perception score I have as a bear, right?
This is the real doozy, the one that everyone discusses back and forth.
So, I have proficiency in stealth on my druid (+1 dex bonus and +5 proficiency bonus for a total of +6) and turn into a giant spider, which has stealth +7 written on the stat block. The "bonus in its stat block is higher than yours" (+7 is higher than +6) so I believe the intent is to just use the +7 from the spider's stat block, not to recalculate the stealth value as +5 proficiency bonus from druid and +3 dex from spider, for a total of +8.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I really think Stormknight had it right at first, I feel like the idea (RAI) is that you just look at the stat block of the beast and your character sheet and use whichever bonus is higher for skills and saving throws. For example, a cat has +3 perception, but if your level 2 druid is proficient in it with a wisdom of 16, you might have a +5, so you should use your value. The wildshape rules don't mention anything about recalculating anything. I think RAI, The "bonus" in the sentence "...and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours..." is the total (ability mod + proficiency bonus) bonus to the roll, not just the proficiency bonus.
With that being said, the wildshape rules don't say anything about what to do with attacks/how to calculate attacks. This makes me assume that you don't have to - since that is generally the way 5e is written. You get what the stat block says, and that is all. As a moon druid, this should be accounted for by the increasing proficiency as the CR of the beasts that you transform into increases. As a non-moon druid, you really shouldn't be attacking all that much as a beast once your proficiency increases.
As another note, the sage advice tweet seems to be saying the same thing: attacks are something that you can be proficient in. If you're not proficient in a bite or claw attack as a druid then when you wildshape you just use the bonus that is in the beast stat block.
Edit: though I'm not sure on this, because it seems to me that the wildshape rules talk specifically about skills and saving throws, while the sage advice tweet seems to be trying to extend this rule to attacks, which are mentioned nowhere in wildshape rules. The more I think about it, the more I think attacks are just one of the things that come along with the sentence "Your game statistics are replaced..."
I interpret it the way Stormknight and WolfOfTheBees described it.
Yeah, that's definitely the easiest way.
It's probably not RAW but it's not like I'm planning to recalculate a million beast stats once my proficiency bonus goes up, so I'll kind of end up doing that by default
Note that it does not mention weapon / attack proficiencies.
So you use only the beast's stats for the attack rolls. For saving throws and skills, you either use the number in its stat block or the number on your regular character sheet, whichever is higher. You do not try to math out what its bonus is and add in your own.
Example, you have Wisdom 14 and are not proficient in Perception. You would use the +3 in the bear's block. Later, you gain proficiency in Perception, and on your sheet its +5 now (+2 Wis, +3 Proficiency). You would use your character's +5 bonus instead of the bear's +3. You do NOT add +3 to the bears +1 Wisdom.
Site Info: Wizard's ToS | Fan Content Policy | Forum Rules | Physical Books | Content Not Working | Contact Support
How To: Homebrew Rules | Create Homebrew | Snippet Codes | Tool Tips (Custom) | Rollables (Generator)
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Feats | Spells | Magic Items
Other: Beyond20 | Page References | Other Guides | Entitlements | Dice Randomization | Images Fix | FAQ
As a little coda to this, I'd like to mention that you can add wildshapes on your character sheet here on DnDbeyond and it will automatically add/balance your mental stats and skill/saving throw proficiencies with the creatures, but attack rolls are not affected.