Mephista is correct. The attack action is one option you can do during your action. During your action you can attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, help, or hide. These are the options you can make during an action. Bonus actions let you take an additional action on your turn. These bonus actions can only be obtained using class features, spells, or other abilities and are limited based on the feature that allows it. The martial arts monk feature allows you to make an extra attack as a bonus action thus you are taking the attack action during your bonus action, same with flurry of blows. When wizards cast a spell as a bonus action they are using the “cast a spell” option of the action list. When rogues disengage as a bonus action they are using the “disengage” option of the action list.
Mephista is correct. The attack action is one option you can do during your action. During your action you can attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, help, or hide. These are the options you can make during an action. Bonus actions let you take an additional action on your turn. These bonus actions can only be obtained using class features, spells, or other abilities and are limited based on the feature that allows it. The martial arts monk feature allows you to make an extra attack as a bonus action thus you are taking the attack action during your bonus action, same with flurry of blows. When wizards cast a spell as a bonus action they are using the “cast a spell” option of the action list. When rogues disengage as a bonus action they are using the “disengage” option of the action list.
Indeed what you say and the reasoning of Mephista are correct.
What I was pointing out was the fact that she mentioned "as part of the Attack action", which is indeed part of some features description, just not Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows.
If that part was there, then it would make perfect sense to think the bonus action unarmed attack could activate Agile Parry, which is not the case. Just wanted to avoid confusion on her otherwise very correct answer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Mechanically, there is no reason to play a Kensei. They gutted the subclass in Xanathars' after its introduction in UA and is probably one of the most inferior Monk subclasses. Open Hand and Shadow offer so much more mechanically and thematically.
That being said, some people like to try to ice skate up hill, the Kensei is the Monk subclass for them.
Iván agree mechanically it lacks the amount of options other Monk subclasses give, but I personally still find it interesting.
In the end, IAM playing one and having fun for it's simplicity, and the mixed tank/DPS feel I get from it, making the character still useful in my party.
I'd dare say fun is what matters the most.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Agreed. I've been wanting to play a monk that can use a longsword as a monk weapon for years and the kensei seems built well for my purposes. Useful and fun. Going to be trying it out this Sunday.
Mechanically, there is no reason to play a Kensei. They gutted the subclass in Xanathars' after its introduction in UA and is probably one of the most inferior Monk subclasses. Open Hand and Shadow offer so much more mechanically and thematically.
None of the other subclasses let you use d10 weapons or longbows as monk weapons or get +3 on weapon attack for a small amount of ki points, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Kensei monks certainly don't have any interesting tactical options but they put out the best numbers. Not being handicapped every time a flying enemy comes up is also a pretty solid feature even if it's not entirely unique to them (Sun Souls also have an out with Radiant Sun Bolt.)
I’m playing a Kensei Monk and I love being able to switch between tank, DPS, ranged, or support on the fly. The fact the Kensei can get a +3 weapon whenever they want is pretty impressive.
Is everyone forgetting that you can wall/water run with a god damn longbow and snipe people? They make a very good skirmisher for any BBG that likes to hide behind cover.
First off: They are cool. That's a great reason. I freaking love my lil kennie to death (hope I didn't just jinx myself.)
Mechanically, they have a breadth of options and efficacy that is very impressive, even if no one thing screams "omfg." Altogether, they are very versatile and effective across a broad spectrum. D10 damage options from jump street, 2-4 attacks per round, solid ranged damage, great mobility + solid defense, crit-confirming with Deft Strike, can go toe-to-toe or kite/chase REALLY well (thus easily adapting to lots of different situations and maintaining consistent DPR.) That's all just low level stuff, too.
The way I see it is this: If you like the thematic elements of the Kensei, the subclass is mechanically solid enough to make the choice easy. If you are looking for just mechanics, nothing will stand out except for the fact that nothing really lacks here, and indeed this subclass basically just takes what the base class already does and makes it better from all ranges, so the Kensei will only really interest you if your character concept is more about adaptability and versatility than power spikes.
Is everyone forgetting that you can wall/water run with a god damn longbow and snipe people? They make a very good skirmisher for any BBG that likes to hide behind cover.
This is also a thing. Monks, imho, have more in common with rogues and rangers skirmishers than they do with fighters. They're filling the niche of scouts and skirmishers more than front line warriors.
Kensei Monks are fantastic, I'd class them right alongside open hand and shadow, for their numbers and for the fact that they are bar nothing the best archer monks.
Mephista, I think LeK is correct about getting the AC bonus.
And the bonus action unarmed strike you get from Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows is part of the Attack Action, as I'm reading it. I believe that's the intent of the ability, and I don't see anything that would contradict that belief.
The Attack action, in the rules, states that you make one ranged or melee attack, then goes on to state that some features modify the attacks you make. I believe that Martial Arts's bonus action unarmed strike counts, since its dependent upon making an Attack action. Natural language, and all.
And/or Deft Strike once you are level 6, depending on how many Ki points you are willing to spend in one turn ;)
I did forget about Deft Strike, admittedly, but it seems to be a better option to use Flurry of Blows in many cases. All depends on how you're allocating your points, I guess - going nova early on, or hoarding. Or scoring a crit.
I believe that the bonus action is separate from the attack action. (As noted above, our monk agrees with your interpretation.)
Well, you're free to interpret things that way, but it doesn't make sense given the subclass as a whole. Remember that 5e is predicated on natural language and local rulings than trying for exact technical languages. And, as the OP said, what's the point then? Its awkward and strange and doesn't fit the theme of the subclass.
One of the developer videos said that, when developing subclasses, the team made sure that each one had a story they told. And the mechanics are an attempt to model that story. I can't see Kensei as a punching machine as that story, so there's dissonance right there.
You (meaning all characters in general) can take an attack option without taking a bonus action, and you can take a bonus action taking an attack action. They are separate entities.
They are linked and interdependent entities. They are reliant upon each other. I don't believe you can call that separate.
You want to run things that way, go for it. 5e is meant to be flexible with its word choice so you can run things however you see fit. So, have fun with your way, if you want to do things that way. I stand by my statement as intuitive, interesting/fun, and within both the spirit and wording of the rules.
I am sorry, I do not mean to look like someone not wanting to hear reasons, but I believe this tweet from Jeremy Crawford puts the question at rest.
Agile Parry only works on an unarmed strike as part of the Attack Action, and a Bonus Action unarmed attack would not qualify.
By all means, every group is free to rule the bonus action attack counts, but I'd believe that detracts from the whole concept of trade-off the subclass is based on (imho).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I am playing a Kensei Monk and found it to be thematically weird that the bonus AC is when you attack with an unarmed strike. Also the Kensei Shot is just a bonus straight d4 per attack that doesn't scale. If thematically you are training with a weapon so much that it become part of yourself and you can channel your ki through it, wouldn't is make more sense that you could flurry of blows with your weapon instead of the added defense? or that your Kensei Shot does added Martial Arts damage die?
I play a Knife wielding Monk and find that other than the AC bonus it is no different from a regular monk. In fact if you are playing in a magical campaign and your DM grants players access to +3 weapons, the Kensei Monk ( doesn't suffer ) isn't unique from any other monk save for at level 6 one extra martial arts damage die on one attack.
I just don't know what niche this monk is supposed to fulfill. So far all I can see is that he is fast.
To sum up I think I would have much preferred if the Kensei Monk didn't have to choose a weapon to be Kensei (and everything else stays the same) or if everything you could do bare handed could be translated to your weapons ( flurry with melee, stunning strike at a range etc..)
To sum up I think I would have much preferred if the Kensei Monk didn't have to choose a weapon to be Kensei (and everything else stays the same) or if everything you could do bare handed could be translated to your weapons ( flurry with melee, stunning strike at a range etc..)
This is my exact problem with Kensei. The weapon aspect of it seems clunky to me. I don't feel like a weapon master at all when playing this class. I don't think the class itself is bad, just that the abilities don't thematically match the monastic tradition.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Mephista is correct. The attack action is one option you can do during your action. During your action you can attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, help, or hide. These are the options you can make during an action. Bonus actions let you take an additional action on your turn. These bonus actions can only be obtained using class features, spells, or other abilities and are limited based on the feature that allows it. The martial arts monk feature allows you to make an extra attack as a bonus action thus you are taking the attack action during your bonus action, same with flurry of blows. When wizards cast a spell as a bonus action they are using the “cast a spell” option of the action list. When rogues disengage as a bonus action they are using the “disengage” option of the action list.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Back to the original question.
Mechanically, there is no reason to play a Kensei. They gutted the subclass in Xanathars' after its introduction in UA and is probably one of the most inferior Monk subclasses. Open Hand and Shadow offer so much more mechanically and thematically.
That being said, some people like to try to ice skate up hill, the Kensei is the Monk subclass for them.
Iván agree mechanically it lacks the amount of options other Monk subclasses give, but I personally still find it interesting.
In the end, IAM playing one and having fun for it's simplicity, and the mixed tank/DPS feel I get from it, making the character still useful in my party.
I'd dare say fun is what matters the most.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Agreed. I've been wanting to play a monk that can use a longsword as a monk weapon for years and the kensei seems built well for my purposes. Useful and fun. Going to be trying it out this Sunday.
None of the other subclasses let you use d10 weapons or longbows as monk weapons or get +3 on weapon attack for a small amount of ki points, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Kensei monks certainly don't have any interesting tactical options but they put out the best numbers. Not being handicapped every time a flying enemy comes up is also a pretty solid feature even if it's not entirely unique to them (Sun Souls also have an out with Radiant Sun Bolt.)
I’m playing a Kensei Monk and I love being able to switch between tank, DPS, ranged, or support on the fly. The fact the Kensei can get a +3 weapon whenever they want is pretty impressive.
Is everyone forgetting that you can wall/water run with a god damn longbow and snipe people? They make a very good skirmisher for any BBG that likes to hide behind cover.
First off: They are cool. That's a great reason. I freaking love my lil kennie to death (hope I didn't just jinx myself.)
Mechanically, they have a breadth of options and efficacy that is very impressive, even if no one thing screams "omfg." Altogether, they are very versatile and effective across a broad spectrum. D10 damage options from jump street, 2-4 attacks per round, solid ranged damage, great mobility + solid defense, crit-confirming with Deft Strike, can go toe-to-toe or kite/chase REALLY well (thus easily adapting to lots of different situations and maintaining consistent DPR.) That's all just low level stuff, too.
The way I see it is this: If you like the thematic elements of the Kensei, the subclass is mechanically solid enough to make the choice easy. If you are looking for just mechanics, nothing will stand out except for the fact that nothing really lacks here, and indeed this subclass basically just takes what the base class already does and makes it better from all ranges, so the Kensei will only really interest you if your character concept is more about adaptability and versatility than power spikes.
I absolutely love this subclass.
My Kensei Monk can tank just fine with agile parry and patient defense.
This, I have found myself occupying the bad guy while the rest of the group kills the rest. And with mobile im able to GTFO when i get hit too hard.
Also Tabaxi Agility + Mobile + Gloom Stalker's Dread Ambusher = amazing first round opener
Kensei Monks are fantastic, I'd class them right alongside open hand and shadow, for their numbers and for the fact that they are bar nothing the best archer monks.
I agree
100%
This is very true, but can you do it in All DandD
I am sorry, I do not mean to look like someone not wanting to hear reasons, but I believe this tweet from Jeremy Crawford puts the question at rest.
Agile Parry only works on an unarmed strike as part of the Attack Action, and a Bonus Action unarmed attack would not qualify.
By all means, every group is free to rule the bonus action attack counts, but I'd believe that detracts from the whole concept of trade-off the subclass is based on (imho).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
This is the correct interpretation.
Feature Requests || Homebrew FAQ || Pricing FAQ || Hardcovers FAQ || Snippet Codes || Tooltips
DDB Guides & FAQs, Class Guides, Character Builds, Game Guides, Useful Websites, and WOTC Resources
Sorry for long first post.
I am playing a Kensei Monk and found it to be thematically weird that the bonus AC is when you attack with an unarmed strike. Also the Kensei Shot is just a bonus straight d4 per attack that doesn't scale. If thematically you are training with a weapon so much that it become part of yourself and you can channel your ki through it, wouldn't is make more sense that you could flurry of blows with your weapon instead of the added defense? or that your Kensei Shot does added Martial Arts damage die?
I play a Knife wielding Monk and find that other than the AC bonus it is no different from a regular monk. In fact if you are playing in a magical campaign and your DM grants players access to +3 weapons, the Kensei Monk ( doesn't suffer ) isn't unique from any other monk save for at level 6 one extra martial arts damage die on one attack.
I just don't know what niche this monk is supposed to fulfill. So far all I can see is that he is fast.
To sum up I think I would have much preferred if the Kensei Monk didn't have to choose a weapon to be Kensei (and everything else stays the same) or if everything you could do bare handed could be translated to your weapons ( flurry with melee, stunning strike at a range etc..)
This is my exact problem with Kensei. The weapon aspect of it seems clunky to me. I don't feel like a weapon master at all when playing this class. I don't think the class itself is bad, just that the abilities don't thematically match the monastic tradition.