Just one Problem here. You couldn't actually pull off 9 attacks while holding 2 hand crossbows. you couldn't pull off more than 2.
CrossBow Expert gets rid of the Loading Property but it does not change the Ammunition Property. The Ammunition Property has the requirement that you must have a hand free to load the weapon to make multiple attacks in a turn.
With Two Crossbow's in hand you do not have the free hand to load the weapons. So you don't get to make all of the attacks despite having all of the attacks. Not because of the Loading property but because your hands are too full to keep putting arrows into them to make them all.
People keep citing this in every discussion where using a handcrossbow comes up in cunjunction with doing something else with your other hand; like spellcasting, holding a shield, using another weapon, etc. Aside form the Artificer version of the repeating hand crossbow which magically generates it's own ammo; there is also meant to be a non-magical version of the repeating hand crossbow where you load a cartrige atop it containing at least 3 in homebrew 5e designs, but formerly 5 in 3e official, bolts, which to my understanding specifically is meant to work in conjunction with Crossbow Expert to negate both the loading AND the ammunition property for a number of shots equal to the number of bolts in the cartridge; or in the case of the artificers infused version, indefinitly - specifically so that you can in fact use a hand crossbow in one hand, while doing something with your other hand rather than loading it - at least until you must load a new cartridge. This can include firing a second hand crossbow, but is more often used to allow for spellcasting or holding a shield.
Where was that official 3e repeating hand crossbow? There was a real world repeating light crossbow that had a lower range and damage that may have shown up In 3e. If I had found it I wouldn’t have needed to homebrew a better repeating light crossbow. What I have seen is hand crossbows strapped to the tops of wrists so both hands were free to load them and fire them. But while the DM allowed it I would not have.
It really doesn’t matter, RAW just using a single hand crossbow the whole time counts and gets you your extra shots. It is a one-handed light weapon, so using it to make all of your shots and having the other hand free to reload, perform somatic components, etc., and still shoot the hand crossbow again as the bonus action. At that point, the whole “dual wielding hand crossbows,” or strapping them to wrists or whatever…. 🤷♂️ Who cares? Those are just head-canon at that point. Saying “no” just feels pointless when it doesn’t really matter.
Where was that official 3e repeating hand crossbow? There was a real world repeating light crossbow that had a lower range and damage that may have shown up In 3e. If I had found it I wouldn’t have needed to homebrew a better repeating light crossbow. What I have seen is hand crossbows strapped to the tops of wrists so both hands were free to load them and fire them. But while the DM allowed it I would not have.
None of the D&D wiki enteries are seeming to cite their sources unfortunately, so I went and looked at some of my old hardcopy, i.e. Arms and Equipment guide, tabel 1-6 on page 12, etc. So far it seems you might be right, and I am misremembering. The entry's I'm finding seem to apply specifically to light and heavy crossbows or to an individual entry of repeating crossbow described as a medium-sized two handed weapon.
This is so odd; I could swear I remember my Bard having a repeating crossbow that let me cast or use brdic music while still being able to take more than one shot in a round.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Yeah that is the reason I created a repeating light crossbow. I also designed repeating hand crossbows (/pistols) that had 6 shots before reloading. But it is all homebrew.
I think I would do 3-shot cartriges of bolts for a repeating hand crossbow, 5 for light crossbow, 8 for heavy crossbow and 10 for greatcrossbow. I think I'd make the current version be:
Crossbow, Hand (Basic/Standard)
vs the addition of a homebrewed
Crossbow, Hand (Special)
with the former still being 75gp and the latter being the price of "Rare"
In addition to the feature "Repeating"; the special version would have a second feature "Folding" which allows them to be worn in a waist, shoulder, or leg mounted holster like a pistol is; and when drawn the bow ends spring open and lock into place.
I can also see for a further reduction in damage from d6 to d4 and perhaps some other penalty as well to range or something to allow for a third feature of "Ammo Substitution" which would allow for the use of darts or slingshot bullets in place of bolts, which then can allow for 6 or more shots per round instead of three - up to the players maximum number of attacks?. Smaller ammo follows the theme of this being a transitional form between actual crossbows and actual pistols. Since it exists in the same world as Artificers who can make Blunderbuss's and such, I think a more pistol like conceptualization of the hand crossbow for flavor, if nothing more, is definitly appropriate.
The above crossbow modifications, NOT of course being for a Monk weapon.
I would still also disagree with the current version of the RAW regarding monk weapons not including some range however, and would hope in their new evolution, a couple of ranged weapons such as Shuriken and Blowgun w/h darts and slings, bolas, etc. might officially count as monk weapons in the future afterall. Presently, I do not mind houserulling a couple of these into place. Afterall, I've got the origonal Kung Fu series with David Carradine where the monks litterally do practice with Shuriken at the very least alongside of quarterstaves and spears.
For monk weapons I make the distinction between martial weapons that a monk might be trained in and the hidden/disguised weapons a monk or disguised ninja, peasant, etc would be carrying. A monk might well have training in martial weapons - there are numerous Chinese, Japanese and other sword, spear, pole arm skills (think about the sword fights in crouching Tiger and other films) while the monk weapons are those that no one would would take a second glance at in a peasant’s or wandering monk’s hands. So staves are in, agricultural tools (Tonga’s, nunchaku, sickles, metal chains, etc) or disguised hidden weapons like 3 section staves or shurikens. Even most simple weapons would not really qualify - just why are you carrying around a hand or light crossbow? Hunting wasn’t a peasant activity in Asia as it often was in Europe. Shurikens I treat as a reskinned dart. As someone that has actually worked with shurikens the dart range and damage look reasonable to me - 1D4 damage (typically not deadly for a single hit but significant for a low level foe) and 20’ normal range with a 60’ max range - when I was practicing I could hit a torso target with shurikens consistently (90+%) out to about 20-25 feet and regularly (40+%) out to about 60-70’. Traditionally (as opposed to most fantasy stuff) shurikens we’re not meant as deadly weapons but to injure pursuers slowing them down and forcing others in their party to stop to aide them making escape easier. Killing would actually defeat the purpose as you could leave the body till after you had killed/captured the thrower.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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People keep citing this in every discussion where using a handcrossbow comes up in cunjunction with doing something else with your other hand; like spellcasting, holding a shield, using another weapon, etc. Aside form the Artificer version of the repeating hand crossbow which magically generates it's own ammo; there is also meant to be a non-magical version of the repeating hand crossbow where you load a cartrige atop it containing at least 3 in homebrew 5e designs, but formerly 5 in 3e official, bolts, which to my understanding specifically is meant to work in conjunction with Crossbow Expert to negate both the loading AND the ammunition property for a number of shots equal to the number of bolts in the cartridge; or in the case of the artificers infused version, indefinitly - specifically so that you can in fact use a hand crossbow in one hand, while doing something with your other hand rather than loading it - at least until you must load a new cartridge. This can include firing a second hand crossbow, but is more often used to allow for spellcasting or holding a shield.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Where was that official 3e repeating hand crossbow? There was a real world repeating light crossbow that had a lower range and damage that may have shown up In 3e. If I had found it I wouldn’t have needed to homebrew a better repeating light crossbow. What I have seen is hand crossbows strapped to the tops of wrists so both hands were free to load them and fire them. But while the DM allowed it I would not have.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It really doesn’t matter, RAW just using a single hand crossbow the whole time counts and gets you your extra shots. It is a one-handed light weapon, so using it to make all of your shots and having the other hand free to reload, perform somatic components, etc., and still shoot the hand crossbow again as the bonus action. At that point, the whole “dual wielding hand crossbows,” or strapping them to wrists or whatever…. 🤷♂️ Who cares? Those are just head-canon at that point. Saying “no” just feels pointless when it doesn’t really matter.
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None of the D&D wiki enteries are seeming to cite their sources unfortunately, so I went and looked at some of my old hardcopy, i.e. Arms and Equipment guide, tabel 1-6 on page 12, etc. So far it seems you might be right, and I am misremembering. The entry's I'm finding seem to apply specifically to light and heavy crossbows or to an individual entry of repeating crossbow described as a medium-sized two handed weapon.
This is so odd; I could swear I remember my Bard having a repeating crossbow that let me cast or use brdic music while still being able to take more than one shot in a round.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Yeah that is the reason I created a repeating light crossbow. I also designed repeating hand crossbows (/pistols) that had 6 shots before reloading. But it is all homebrew.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
-Nods
I think I would do 3-shot cartriges of bolts for a repeating hand crossbow, 5 for light crossbow, 8 for heavy crossbow and 10 for greatcrossbow. I think I'd make the current version be:
Crossbow, Hand (Basic/Standard)
vs the addition of a homebrewed
Crossbow, Hand (Special)
with the former still being 75gp and the latter being the price of "Rare"
In addition to the feature "Repeating"; the special version would have a second feature "Folding" which allows them to be worn in a waist, shoulder, or leg mounted holster like a pistol is; and when drawn the bow ends spring open and lock into place.
I can also see for a further reduction in damage from d6 to d4 and perhaps some other penalty as well to range or something to allow for a third feature of "Ammo Substitution" which would allow for the use of darts or slingshot bullets in place of bolts, which then can allow for 6 or more shots per round instead of three - up to the players maximum number of attacks?. Smaller ammo follows the theme of this being a transitional form between actual crossbows and actual pistols. Since it exists in the same world as Artificers who can make Blunderbuss's and such, I think a more pistol like conceptualization of the hand crossbow for flavor, if nothing more, is definitly appropriate.
The above crossbow modifications, NOT of course being for a Monk weapon.
I would still also disagree with the current version of the RAW regarding monk weapons not including some range however, and would hope in their new evolution, a couple of ranged weapons such as Shuriken and Blowgun w/h darts and slings, bolas, etc. might officially count as monk weapons in the future afterall. Presently, I do not mind houserulling a couple of these into place. Afterall, I've got the origonal Kung Fu series with David Carradine where the monks litterally do practice with Shuriken at the very least alongside of quarterstaves and spears.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
For monk weapons I make the distinction between martial weapons that a monk might be trained in and the hidden/disguised weapons a monk or disguised ninja, peasant, etc would be carrying. A monk might well have training in martial weapons - there are numerous Chinese, Japanese and other sword, spear, pole arm skills (think about the sword fights in crouching Tiger and other films) while the monk weapons are those that no one would would take a second glance at in a peasant’s or wandering monk’s hands. So staves are in, agricultural tools (Tonga’s, nunchaku, sickles, metal chains, etc) or disguised hidden weapons like 3 section staves or shurikens. Even most simple weapons would not really qualify - just why are you carrying around a hand or light crossbow? Hunting wasn’t a peasant activity in Asia as it often was in Europe. Shurikens I treat as a reskinned dart. As someone that has actually worked with shurikens the dart range and damage look reasonable to me - 1D4 damage (typically not deadly for a single hit but significant for a low level foe) and 20’ normal range with a 60’ max range - when I was practicing I could hit a torso target with shurikens consistently (90+%) out to about 20-25 feet and regularly (40+%) out to about 60-70’. Traditionally (as opposed to most fantasy stuff) shurikens we’re not meant as deadly weapons but to injure pursuers slowing them down and forcing others in their party to stop to aide them making escape easier. Killing would actually defeat the purpose as you could leave the body till after you had killed/captured the thrower.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.