Just one Problem here. You couldn't actually pull off 9 attacks while holding 2 hand crossbows. you couldn't pull off more than 2.
CrossBow Expert gets rid of the Loading Property but it does not change the Ammunition Property. The Ammunition Property has the requirement that you must have a hand free to load the weapon to make multiple attacks in a turn.
With Two Crossbow's in hand you do not have the free hand to load the weapons. So you don't get to make all of the attacks despite having all of the attacks. Not because of the Loading property but because your hands are too full to keep putting arrows into them to make them all.
People keep citing this in every discussion where using a handcrossbow comes up in cunjunction with doing something else with your other hand; like spellcasting, holding a shield, using another weapon, etc. Aside form the Artificer version of the repeating hand crossbow which magically generates it's own ammo; there is also meant to be a non-magical version of the repeating hand crossbow where you load a cartrige atop it containing at least 3 in homebrew 5e designs, but formerly 5 in 3e official, bolts, which to my understanding specifically is meant to work in conjunction with Crossbow Expert to negate both the loading AND the ammunition property for a number of shots equal to the number of bolts in the cartridge; or in the case of the artificers infused version, indefinitly - specifically so that you can in fact use a hand crossbow in one hand, while doing something with your other hand rather than loading it - at least until you must load a new cartridge. This can include firing a second hand crossbow, but is more often used to allow for spellcasting or holding a shield.
Where was that official 3e repeating hand crossbow? There was a real world repeating light crossbow that had a lower range and damage that may have shown up In 3e. If I had found it I wouldn’t have needed to homebrew a better repeating light crossbow. What I have seen is hand crossbows strapped to the tops of wrists so both hands were free to load them and fire them. But while the DM allowed it I would not have.
It really doesn’t matter, RAW just using a single hand crossbow the whole time counts and gets you your extra shots. It is a one-handed light weapon, so using it to make all of your shots and having the other hand free to reload, perform somatic components, etc., and still shoot the hand crossbow again as the bonus action. At that point, the whole “dual wielding hand crossbows,” or strapping them to wrists or whatever…. 🤷♂️ Who cares? Those are just head-canon at that point. Saying “no” just feels pointless when it doesn’t really matter.
Where was that official 3e repeating hand crossbow? There was a real world repeating light crossbow that had a lower range and damage that may have shown up In 3e. If I had found it I wouldn’t have needed to homebrew a better repeating light crossbow. What I have seen is hand crossbows strapped to the tops of wrists so both hands were free to load them and fire them. But while the DM allowed it I would not have.
None of the D&D wiki enteries are seeming to cite their sources unfortunately, so I went and looked at some of my old hardcopy, i.e. Arms and Equipment guide, tabel 1-6 on page 12, etc. So far it seems you might be right, and I am misremembering. The entry's I'm finding seem to apply specifically to light and heavy crossbows or to an individual entry of repeating crossbow described as a medium-sized two handed weapon.
This is so odd; I could swear I remember my Bard having a repeating crossbow that let me cast or use brdic music while still being able to take more than one shot in a round.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Yeah that is the reason I created a repeating light crossbow. I also designed repeating hand crossbows (/pistols) that had 6 shots before reloading. But it is all homebrew.
I think I would do 3-shot cartriges of bolts for a repeating hand crossbow, 5 for light crossbow, 8 for heavy crossbow and 10 for greatcrossbow. I think I'd make the current version be:
Crossbow, Hand (Basic/Standard)
vs the addition of a homebrewed
Crossbow, Hand (Special)
with the former still being 75gp and the latter being the price of "Rare"
In addition to the feature "Repeating"; the special version would have a second feature "Folding" which allows them to be worn in a waist, shoulder, or leg mounted holster like a pistol is; and when drawn the bow ends spring open and lock into place.
I can also see for a further reduction in damage from d6 to d4 and perhaps some other penalty as well to range or something to allow for a third feature of "Ammo Substitution" which would allow for the use of darts or slingshot bullets in place of bolts, which then can allow for 6 or more shots per round instead of three - up to the players maximum number of attacks?. Smaller ammo follows the theme of this being a transitional form between actual crossbows and actual pistols. Since it exists in the same world as Artificers who can make Blunderbuss's and such, I think a more pistol like conceptualization of the hand crossbow for flavor, if nothing more, is definitly appropriate.
The above crossbow modifications, NOT of course being for a Monk weapon.
I would still also disagree with the current version of the RAW regarding monk weapons not including some range however, and would hope in their new evolution, a couple of ranged weapons such as Shuriken and Blowgun w/h darts and slings, bolas, etc. might officially count as monk weapons in the future afterall. Presently, I do not mind houserulling a couple of these into place. Afterall, I've got the origonal Kung Fu series with David Carradine where the monks litterally do practice with Shuriken at the very least alongside of quarterstaves and spears.
For monk weapons I make the distinction between martial weapons that a monk might be trained in and the hidden/disguised weapons a monk or disguised ninja, peasant, etc would be carrying. A monk might well have training in martial weapons - there are numerous Chinese, Japanese and other sword, spear, pole arm skills (think about the sword fights in crouching Tiger and other films) while the monk weapons are those that no one would would take a second glance at in a peasant’s or wandering monk’s hands. So staves are in, agricultural tools (Tonga’s, nunchaku, sickles, metal chains, etc) or disguised hidden weapons like 3 section staves or shurikens. Even most simple weapons would not really qualify - just why are you carrying around a hand or light crossbow? Hunting wasn’t a peasant activity in Asia as it often was in Europe. Shurikens I treat as a reskinned dart. As someone that has actually worked with shurikens the dart range and damage look reasonable to me - 1D4 damage (typically not deadly for a single hit but significant for a low level foe) and 20’ normal range with a 60’ max range - when I was practicing I could hit a torso target with shurikens consistently (90+%) out to about 20-25 feet and regularly (40+%) out to about 60-70’. Traditionally (as opposed to most fantasy stuff) shurikens we’re not meant as deadly weapons but to injure pursuers slowing them down and forcing others in their party to stop to aide them making escape easier. Killing would actually defeat the purpose as you could leave the body till after you had killed/captured the thrower.
Incorrect. While Glaives aren't a Monk weapon, that doesn't mean Monks just can't use them. Any monk can use them in general and just either cope without proficiency or take a feat. Eladrin monks can take glaives as a proficiency. Most monks aren't using a weapon in tandem with their flurry of blows anyway and tend to use a weapon as a backup when out of ki points so glaives are still a very solid choice especially if you can get the proficiency bonus.
Incorrect. While Glaives aren't a Monk weapon, that doesn't mean Monks just can't use them. Any monk can use them in general and just either cope without proficiency or take a feat. Eladrin monks can take glaives as a proficiency. Most monks aren't using a weapon in tandem with their flurry of blows anyway and tend to use a weapon as a backup when out of ki points so glaives are still a very solid choice especially if you can get the proficiency bonus.
I’m not sure why you think monks wouldn’t use weapons in tandem with FOB. But one thing is, sure monks can use a Glaive but it uses STR which monks wouldn’t have very high a score in. So at that point you probably would still be better off using unarmed strikes when out of Ki/Focus points
I never said they couldn’t use martial weapons like a glaive - the naginata is a glaive by a different name. I was trying to point out that monks were often trained in martial weapons as well as “monk” weapons. The other “problem” is that monks (in reality) were both extremely dexterous and very strong - take a look at an unshirted image of Bruce Lee or pretty much any other well known high level martial artist - maybe not quite up to bodybuilder standard but clearly well muscled and strong as well as fast and nimble. Yes the game monk is often played with a high Dex and low strength but that is on us not the class (RAI).
I never said they couldn’t use martial weapons like a glaive - the naginata is a glaive by a different name. I was trying to point out that monks were often trained in martial weapons as well as “monk” weapons. The other “problem” is that monks (in reality) were both extremely dexterous and very strong - take a look at an unshirted image of Bruce Lee or pretty much any other well known high level martial artist - maybe not quite up to bodybuilder standard but clearly well muscled and strong as well as fast and nimble. Yes the game monk is often played with a high Dex and low strength but that is on us not the class (RAI).
This last part puzzles me. Monks need Dex and Wis for AC. Wis for save DC and Dex for attacks. Con is good to have as well. But you could forgo that in favor of Str but unless you wanted to dump con, int, and cha your STR will not be very good. I’m not sure how that is on us and not the class when it is the class that has two ability scores that are primary.
Threekreen, I’m mostly pointing out the differences between real world monks/martial artists and game world. In game it’s all Dex and wisdom, in the real world it’s Dex, strength and maybe wisdom ( especially for “ true monks” rather than straight martial artists.
Even if we create images of our characters from movie bases, legends or reality, this is still a game and the rules must be simplified.
However, I can say that a martial artist fighter cannot have a powerful physique, because he would lose out on his speed and agility of movement and reaction. If you look at Bruce Lee's physique, you can immediately see that he was not particularly muscular, he had a well-defined physique with 0 visible fat, but not at all a mighty physique. Martial arts are based in technique rather than in strength itself. So a martial arts measter tends to have a balanced physique, practically that of an athlete (this may vary depending on the discipline).
Sumo wrestlers tend to reduce their agility of movement for more power based on their body weight.
Whereas a fighter with a heavy weapon would have to have a more powerful physique since the weapon is a no small suplementary weight, so he would lose out in movement for greater stability and power in wielding its weapon.
I beleive they changed the wording for monk weapons so you should be able to use a great club now. im looking forward to the Kensei revamp at some point . I think we might get at least one heavy weapon , maybe a glaive.
I'm using a torch as my monk weapon because it is a club technically. Which is awesome for me.
I got this from BG3 which if you look at its game stuff it still uses dice and all that and it's the only place I could find torch as a weapon. Please tell me if their is another place to find the abilities of a torch. Thanks if you do because I might not respond immediately.
I'm using a torch as my monk weapon because it is a club technically. Which is awesome for me.
I got this from BG3 which if you look at its game stuff it still uses dice and all that and it's the only place I could find torch as a weapon. Please tell me if their is another place to find the abilities of a torch. Thanks if you do because I might not respond immediately.
There are rules for "improvised weapons" that apply when things that are not really supposed to be weapons are used as weapons. It's generally up to the DM to decide whether any particular thing being used as a weapon counts as an "improvised weapon" (which wouldn't count as a Monk weapon) or is similar enough to an actual weapon that it can just count as that weapon (in which case it could count as a Monk weapon).
Also note that in Baldur's Gate 3, a lit torch deals extra fire damage when used as a melee weapon. This is not something that's technically within standard D&D rules, so do check with your DM first before assuming it'll work that way.
Thanks a lot, was having a hard time finding any legit rules on how torches work. Will do, I always run things past my DM even if they're real rules (such as using Shape Water).
Also unrelated hope you are having a nice time/D&D campaign. I just hope everyone is but that might be a little too optimistic depending on who you ask.
Reworked Kensei or any new name, weapon dedicated monk is SO needed.
I’m hoping they get rid of the Heavy/Two Handed restriction on Kensei Weapons like they did on simple weapons for all monks and also open up Weapon Masteries to them as well.
You kinda cant do heavy weapon with dex that makes no sens. I would be against that honestly. Two handed not heavy could makes sense but I still think str would be better, so STR MONK subclass ? kinda weird given what we have. I weirdly think an str restriction like on GWM could work for two handed weapon used with dex. but thats an unelegant solution. I dont know man. I don't think the 2014 longsword kensei weapon was that unbalanced, but it was a huge gap with the base 1d4 monk, while now base monk is stronger so it should not be unbalancing. And yes weapon masteries, anything to allow fantasy creatingt character wearing no armor and using refining excelling in the use of basic &intermediate weapon without being a frontload smasher fighter. It doesnt have to be powerfull, the monk base class is strong but so so much themed around unarmed ONLY, while they could have do something with unarmed and monk weapon (monk always used basic weapon that the thematic being poor). Also handcrossbow ??? too much john wick equilibrium fanboy designer I suppose.
I just want weapons on a monk. There is so much to do with.
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People keep citing this in every discussion where using a handcrossbow comes up in cunjunction with doing something else with your other hand; like spellcasting, holding a shield, using another weapon, etc. Aside form the Artificer version of the repeating hand crossbow which magically generates it's own ammo; there is also meant to be a non-magical version of the repeating hand crossbow where you load a cartrige atop it containing at least 3 in homebrew 5e designs, but formerly 5 in 3e official, bolts, which to my understanding specifically is meant to work in conjunction with Crossbow Expert to negate both the loading AND the ammunition property for a number of shots equal to the number of bolts in the cartridge; or in the case of the artificers infused version, indefinitly - specifically so that you can in fact use a hand crossbow in one hand, while doing something with your other hand rather than loading it - at least until you must load a new cartridge. This can include firing a second hand crossbow, but is more often used to allow for spellcasting or holding a shield.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Where was that official 3e repeating hand crossbow? There was a real world repeating light crossbow that had a lower range and damage that may have shown up In 3e. If I had found it I wouldn’t have needed to homebrew a better repeating light crossbow. What I have seen is hand crossbows strapped to the tops of wrists so both hands were free to load them and fire them. But while the DM allowed it I would not have.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It really doesn’t matter, RAW just using a single hand crossbow the whole time counts and gets you your extra shots. It is a one-handed light weapon, so using it to make all of your shots and having the other hand free to reload, perform somatic components, etc., and still shoot the hand crossbow again as the bonus action. At that point, the whole “dual wielding hand crossbows,” or strapping them to wrists or whatever…. 🤷♂️ Who cares? Those are just head-canon at that point. Saying “no” just feels pointless when it doesn’t really matter.
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None of the D&D wiki enteries are seeming to cite their sources unfortunately, so I went and looked at some of my old hardcopy, i.e. Arms and Equipment guide, tabel 1-6 on page 12, etc. So far it seems you might be right, and I am misremembering. The entry's I'm finding seem to apply specifically to light and heavy crossbows or to an individual entry of repeating crossbow described as a medium-sized two handed weapon.
This is so odd; I could swear I remember my Bard having a repeating crossbow that let me cast or use brdic music while still being able to take more than one shot in a round.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Yeah that is the reason I created a repeating light crossbow. I also designed repeating hand crossbows (/pistols) that had 6 shots before reloading. But it is all homebrew.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
-Nods
I think I would do 3-shot cartriges of bolts for a repeating hand crossbow, 5 for light crossbow, 8 for heavy crossbow and 10 for greatcrossbow. I think I'd make the current version be:
Crossbow, Hand (Basic/Standard)
vs the addition of a homebrewed
Crossbow, Hand (Special)
with the former still being 75gp and the latter being the price of "Rare"
In addition to the feature "Repeating"; the special version would have a second feature "Folding" which allows them to be worn in a waist, shoulder, or leg mounted holster like a pistol is; and when drawn the bow ends spring open and lock into place.
I can also see for a further reduction in damage from d6 to d4 and perhaps some other penalty as well to range or something to allow for a third feature of "Ammo Substitution" which would allow for the use of darts or slingshot bullets in place of bolts, which then can allow for 6 or more shots per round instead of three - up to the players maximum number of attacks?. Smaller ammo follows the theme of this being a transitional form between actual crossbows and actual pistols. Since it exists in the same world as Artificers who can make Blunderbuss's and such, I think a more pistol like conceptualization of the hand crossbow for flavor, if nothing more, is definitly appropriate.
The above crossbow modifications, NOT of course being for a Monk weapon.
I would still also disagree with the current version of the RAW regarding monk weapons not including some range however, and would hope in their new evolution, a couple of ranged weapons such as Shuriken and Blowgun w/h darts and slings, bolas, etc. might officially count as monk weapons in the future afterall. Presently, I do not mind houserulling a couple of these into place. Afterall, I've got the origonal Kung Fu series with David Carradine where the monks litterally do practice with Shuriken at the very least alongside of quarterstaves and spears.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
For monk weapons I make the distinction between martial weapons that a monk might be trained in and the hidden/disguised weapons a monk or disguised ninja, peasant, etc would be carrying. A monk might well have training in martial weapons - there are numerous Chinese, Japanese and other sword, spear, pole arm skills (think about the sword fights in crouching Tiger and other films) while the monk weapons are those that no one would would take a second glance at in a peasant’s or wandering monk’s hands. So staves are in, agricultural tools (Tonga’s, nunchaku, sickles, metal chains, etc) or disguised hidden weapons like 3 section staves or shurikens. Even most simple weapons would not really qualify - just why are you carrying around a hand or light crossbow? Hunting wasn’t a peasant activity in Asia as it often was in Europe. Shurikens I treat as a reskinned dart. As someone that has actually worked with shurikens the dart range and damage look reasonable to me - 1D4 damage (typically not deadly for a single hit but significant for a low level foe) and 20’ normal range with a 60’ max range - when I was practicing I could hit a torso target with shurikens consistently (90+%) out to about 20-25 feet and regularly (40+%) out to about 60-70’. Traditionally (as opposed to most fantasy stuff) shurikens we’re not meant as deadly weapons but to injure pursuers slowing them down and forcing others in their party to stop to aide them making escape easier. Killing would actually defeat the purpose as you could leave the body till after you had killed/captured the thrower.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Incorrect. While Glaives aren't a Monk weapon, that doesn't mean Monks just can't use them. Any monk can use them in general and just either cope without proficiency or take a feat. Eladrin monks can take glaives as a proficiency. Most monks aren't using a weapon in tandem with their flurry of blows anyway and tend to use a weapon as a backup when out of ki points so glaives are still a very solid choice especially if you can get the proficiency bonus.
I’m not sure why you think monks wouldn’t use weapons in tandem with FOB. But one thing is, sure monks can use a Glaive but it uses STR which monks wouldn’t have very high a score in. So at that point you probably would still be better off using unarmed strikes when out of Ki/Focus points
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I never said they couldn’t use martial weapons like a glaive - the naginata is a glaive by a different name. I was trying to point out that monks were often trained in martial weapons as well as “monk” weapons. The other “problem” is that monks (in reality) were both extremely dexterous and very strong - take a look at an unshirted image of Bruce Lee or pretty much any other well known high level martial artist - maybe not quite up to bodybuilder standard but clearly well muscled and strong as well as fast and nimble. Yes the game monk is often played with a high Dex and low strength but that is on us not the class (RAI).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This last part puzzles me. Monks need Dex and Wis for AC. Wis for save DC and Dex for attacks. Con is good to have as well. But you could forgo that in favor of Str but unless you wanted to dump con, int, and cha your STR will not be very good. I’m not sure how that is on us and not the class when it is the class that has two ability scores that are primary.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Threekreen, I’m mostly pointing out the differences between real world monks/martial artists and game world. In game it’s all Dex and wisdom, in the real world it’s Dex, strength and maybe wisdom ( especially for “ true monks” rather than straight martial artists.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Even if we create images of our characters from movie bases, legends or reality, this is still a game and the rules must be simplified.
However, I can say that a martial artist fighter cannot have a powerful physique, because he would lose out on his speed and agility of movement and reaction. If you look at Bruce Lee's physique, you can immediately see that he was not particularly muscular, he had a well-defined physique with 0 visible fat, but not at all a mighty physique. Martial arts are based in technique rather than in strength itself. So a martial arts measter tends to have a balanced physique, practically that of an athlete (this may vary depending on the discipline).
Sumo wrestlers tend to reduce their agility of movement for more power based on their body weight.
Whereas a fighter with a heavy weapon would have to have a more powerful physique since the weapon is a no small suplementary weight, so he would lose out in movement for greater stability and power in wielding its weapon.
At least this is my interpretation.
I beleive they changed the wording for monk weapons so you should be able to use a great club now. im looking forward to the Kensei revamp at some point . I think we might get at least one heavy weapon , maybe a glaive.
I'm using a torch as my monk weapon because it is a club technically. Which is awesome for me.
I got this from BG3 which if you look at its game stuff it still uses dice and all that and it's the only place I could find torch as a weapon. Please tell me if their is another place to find the abilities of a torch. Thanks if you do because I might not respond immediately.
Mordecai Pierce
There are rules for "improvised weapons" that apply when things that are not really supposed to be weapons are used as weapons. It's generally up to the DM to decide whether any particular thing being used as a weapon counts as an "improvised weapon" (which wouldn't count as a Monk weapon) or is similar enough to an actual weapon that it can just count as that weapon (in which case it could count as a Monk weapon).
Also note that in Baldur's Gate 3, a lit torch deals extra fire damage when used as a melee weapon. This is not something that's technically within standard D&D rules, so do check with your DM first before assuming it'll work that way.
pronouns: he/she/they
Thanks a lot, was having a hard time finding any legit rules on how torches work. Will do, I always run things past my DM even if they're real rules (such as using Shape Water).
Also unrelated hope you are having a nice time/D&D campaign. I just hope everyone is but that might be a little too optimistic depending on who you ask.
Mordecai Pierce
Reworked Kensei or any new name, weapon dedicated monk is SO needed.
I’m hoping they get rid of the Heavy/Two Handed restriction on Kensei Weapons like they did on simple weapons for all monks and also open up Weapon Masteries to them as well.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
You kinda cant do heavy weapon with dex that makes no sens. I would be against that honestly.
Two handed not heavy could makes sense but I still think str would be better, so STR MONK subclass ? kinda weird given what we have. I weirdly think an str restriction like on GWM could work for two handed weapon used with dex. but thats an unelegant solution. I dont know man.
I don't think the 2014 longsword kensei weapon was that unbalanced, but it was a huge gap with the base 1d4 monk, while now base monk is stronger so it should not be unbalancing.
And yes weapon masteries, anything to allow fantasy creatingt character wearing no armor and using refining excelling in the use of basic &intermediate weapon without being a frontload smasher fighter.
It doesnt have to be powerfull, the monk base class is strong but so so much themed around unarmed ONLY, while they could have do something with unarmed and monk weapon (monk always used basic weapon that the thematic being poor).
Also handcrossbow ??? too much john wick equilibrium fanboy designer I suppose.
I just want weapons on a monk. There is so much to do with.