Yes. I would make the sorcerer class the way it was in 3.5, and stop breaking what didn't need to be fixed. The whole point of the Sorcerer was to mitigate the miserable rigidity of the Vancian magic system - to have the powers of a Wizard without the unmagical absurdity of "memorizing spells" and being unable to modify your spells on the fly. Since 5e took spontaneous spellcasting away as the providence of the Sorcerer and gave it to all spellcasters while limiting the spells knowable for a Sorcerer to an absurdly limited degree, taking away the Sorcerer's ability to cast spells more often (Sorcery points need to be used for metamagic to be effective, and spell slots have to be burned for sorcery points to have enough of them to be worthwhile), while giving the Sorcerer a limited set of options for modifying their spells in a few specific ways. At higher levels this makes them powerful blasters, but otherwise very magically limited. The only compelling reason to choose a Sorcerer over a Wizard in 5e is if you REALLY like the backstory of innate magic and heavily invest in playing and developing their relationship with their background. However, without the mechanics to back up that innate connection, the sorcerer still winds up forced to play a niche role and the background becomes far less compelling. A sorcerer should be a spellcasting savant - someone who intuitively feels and understands magic and can make it do things few or no others can - a brilliant magical prodigy - but is unable to communicate how they do what they do to anyone else because they don't use the formulas/magical writing that Wizards do. I would say that they may actually understand magical theory and deeper, hidden realities underlying magic in a way that most Wizards don't, but either couldn't explain it to anyone else or have no interest in doing so. Their magic should be more specialized than a Wizard's, but not to the horrendous degree they limited it to in 5e. 15 spells known is NOT enough. 4 metamagics known total is NOT enough, nor is the scope of metamagic wide enough. Sorcerers should be able to do things like take the dimensions of any area affect spell (Fireball becomes a Fire cone or a Fire Beam or a Fire Cube), switch the element of a spell (Fireball becomes Lightning ball or a Thunderball, etc), or warp the underlying currents of magical energy (wrest control of a spell from another spellcaster, or temporarily create zones of wild magic, or even spontaneously pluck magical effects out of raw magic that they may or may not ever be able to repeat again). To balance their power, these abilities would come with a cost - whenever a sorcerer twists magic like this, there is less than insignificant chance that the magic outright fails, goes completely out of control or backfires - causing wildmagic surges far more random and dangerous than anything on the wildmagic table, or potentially exploding in their face causing massive damage to the sorcerer (and potentially those around them). And before anyone says "that would make them too powerful and break the game balance", I would remind them that Sorcerers are still squishy mages, the power creep could be mitigated by limited the number of times per day a Sorcerer could do such manipulations, and that a more powerful character can always be balanced by more powerful monsters (don't even get me started on 5e concentration rules - I know everyone will shout "BUT THE GAME BALANCE"). The way to balance the "quadratic spellcasters" that overshadow everyone else is not by taking things away and nerfing them, but by improving the non spellcasters so that they have abilities to match, or at least make them as fun/interesting to play. Maybe in fantasy worlds with powerful magic, mages SHOULD overshadow other classes (to a certain degree, in certain situations).
I'm kind of going off topic and rambling here, but long story short - the Sorcerer class become something in 5e other than it was originally intended to be in, and the unique features they gave them instead (4 metamagics by level 20) do NOT make up for it. They just limit what the class is capable of and eliminate roleplaying possibilities, to an absurd degree. A character that is defined by their innate relationship to magic should be able to take it in directions beyond the wildest imaginings of others, rather than being constricted in their magic.
Honestly I think they need more known spells. The wizard gets two spells every level, where the sorcerer doesn't even get one spell per level. They should get a spell per level and they should also have access to all the wizard spell list. Their spell list should be the same.
Honestly I think they need more known spells. The wizard gets two spells every level, where the sorcerer doesn't even get one spell per level. They should get a spell per level and they should also have access to all the wizard spell list. Their spell list should be the same.
I found this on Unearthed Arcana, and the Origin spells really look good, along with the other changes and subclasses.
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That is amazing. I really like it for the most part and would love to play some of these. I wish my DM would allow some of them in our sessions now. I honestly wish that they would just redo something official about the spells known because my DM only allows official material. When I DM again I think I will use this to make some villains though. Thanks a lot for this. I really like what they did here except I think that the Divine Soul is better than the God Touched because it can use both spell list. keep that and the God Touched is amazing. Although I do understand why it was made that way and that would be great for multi-classing. I actually made a Divine Soul Sor. once that was a dwarf that thought he was a cleric and only picked from the Cleric spell list.
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I really hope that Wizards will make some kind of Revised edition for the Sorcerer. Currently, sorcerer's are just bad wizards :(. I would give them ritual casting or more spells+more metamagic points. Somehow Mike and Co do not want to listen to the community and they spend 10100101 years trying to fix issues that exist.
Hi Fewwy! I think that in most areas, Sorcerers are fine. Ritual casting doesn't quite fit the theme with Sorcerer, as a ritual is learned, not an innate ability. More sorcery points are something to look at, but might require a lot more playtesting. The subclasses for sorcerer are much stronger than the ones for wizard(In my opinion). As for more spells, a user on Unearthed Arcana made this. I think you'll like it. Hope this helped!
P.S. Remember that you don't have to follow the rules to the letter. If you want to add more spells or sorcery points, go ahead, as long as the DM is fine with it. D&D is meant to be a toolset, not rules set in stone.
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Here's a weird idea: make metamagic free for sorcerer cantrips. (Cantrips gained from race/feats/multiclassing still have their phb cost.)
Sorcerers have more cantrips than any other class and no reliable short-rest slot recovery. This makes it seem as if, much like warlocks, sorcerers should be relying heavily on their cantrips. However, only one of the published sorcerer subclasses (draconic) really gives any benefits to cantrips. The abilities of storm and wild sorcerers explicitly only effect leveled spells, for example. Divine and shadow sorcerers get nothing for cantrips, either.
Even aside from the warlock and its swiss-army eldritch blast, there's several subclasses for other classes that get to modify specific cantrips in metamagic-like ways, without spending resources. Grave clerics get distant quickened Spare The Dying, death clerics get twinned necromancy cantrips. Evocation wizards have all their saving-throw cantrips upgraded to be as reliable as higher-level AoEs in terms of doing at least some damage when targets succeed their saving throws, illusion wizards get some major upgrades to Minor Illusion, Arcane Tricksters get a souped-up Mage Hand.
Some metamagics (like heightened and empowered) probably should continue to have a cost when used on cantrips. But I think that the metamagics that other classes can recreate on select cantrips for free (distant, quickened, twinned, etc), should probably be free for sorcerers' cantrips as well.
Each Sorcerer subclass should have a list of 1st lvl through 5th level appropriately themed spells that are added to their know spell list (5 in total) bring Sorcerer’s know spells up to 20 at 20th level.
obviously you wouldn’t be able to unlearn or switch out those particular spells
For anyone subscribed and interested, I've posted an Int-based Sorc Subclass in the following thread, which has been vetted by my DM circle. So time for the forum to rip it apart!
The biggest change I would make is change the casting stat to Constitution.
There is already too many Charisma casters, As a caster who gains their powers through Blood mostly, I recommend Constitution as the casting stat.
2nd instead of spell slots I would use spell points, based on the DMG alternate rule.
3rd I would create bonus spells known based on subclass over the existing known spells. They would be mostly to supplement early levels so nothing extra after 3rd level known spells bonus. Starting at 1st get two bonus 1st level spells, at 3rd 1 bonus 2nd known, and at 5th one bonus 3rd level spell.
Alternately I came accross this below idea on a discussion form a Youtube channel for extra spells known for sorcerers, its pretty good going further than my suggestion:
Sorcerers excel at using magical energies to protect themselves as well at lash out others. Even without formal training all Sorcerers have an innate understanding of the Abjuration, Evocation and Conjuration schools of magic as they require less fine spellcraft.
Sorcerers, irrelevant of Origin defend themselves in much the same way and draw from the same pool of Abjuration spells. However, whenever they wish to rain hell upon their enemies the way they attack is very much coloured by their Origin.
When your Spellcasting feature lets you learn a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you can select the spell from the following list of spells, in addition to the sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes a sorcerer spell for you.
List of Sorcerer Abjuration Spells:
1st Absorb Elements
3rd Shield
5th Dispel Magic
7th Stoneskin
Evocation/Conjuration spells:
Draconic Ancestory Fire
1st Burning Hands
3rd Scorching Ray
5th Fireball
7th Fire Shield
9th Wall of Fire
Lightning
1st Shocking Grasp
3rd Witch Bolt
5th Lightning Bolt
7th Call Lightning
9th Storm Sphere
Cold
1st Ray of Frost
3rd Ice Knife
5th Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
7th Ice Storm
9th Cone of Cold
Storm
1st Thunderwave
3rd Warding Wind
5th Sleet Storm
7th Ice Storm
9th Storm Sphere
Favoured Soul
1st Guiding Bolt
3rd Spiritual Weapon
5th Daylight
7th Spirit Guardians
9th Flame Strike
Phoenix (Same as Red and Gold Dragon)
Sea Sorcerer
1st Ice Knife
3rd Darkness
5th Wall of Water
7th Watery Sphere
9th Maelstrom
Wild Magic Sorcerer Choose one spell per level from any of the Evocation/Conjuration spell lists.
Sorcerers by default do not get their powers "from their blood". Some do, especially those like Draconic Bloodline, but others may get their powers by being changed from a ritual, an encounter with a fey being, planar distortion. The power could manifest through blood, their soul, their mind, etc.
Charisma is not just about personality in the sense of social interaction. Charisma, even by real-world definition, is about your presence in the world and your ability to use what is within you to manipulate the world. It is the mark of your influence. Put simply, this is the "soul" stat. This is why when spells target you dimensionally like Plane Shift you make a Charisma save - it is a spell targeting your "presence in the world" which is what charisma really is.
The reason why dragonborn and genasi use Constitution is because these powers are natural to their race and is within their genes, their body. The powers of a sorcerer are not part of your race, it is an alteration that could be passed down in blood, but could also be a power in your soul - perhaps you were born with a connection to the Feywild causing you to become a Wild Magic Sorcerer, This may be because you were born in an area where the feywild and material plane overlap and may have nothing to do with your blood or ancestry.
Also, making any spellcaster constitution based is much, much too powerful when multiclassing. The drawback of multiclassing is so that when mixing martial based classes and spellcasting classes you are required to spread out your stats or be less effective in one. This is also the reason why Paladins are Charisma instead of Wisdom like Clerics despite the magic they both have coming from the same source (a deity). If they were both the same stat then it would be easier to multiclass (don't forget multiclassing has stat requirements) and you can become incredibly overpowered.
Most innate magic (as in innate spellcasting power, not tied to racial ability) is Charisma. It's actually rare for any innate spells to use Con. The reason for some to use Con is to indicate they are racial spell-like abilities rather than spellcasting. This harkens back to previous editions where "spells" and "spell-like abilities" were separate things.
Things may alter you to make you a Sorc but that is an alteration of you/your family, hence Cha not of your race, hence not Con.
I am aware there are other factors at play when multiclassing. But those factors are insufficient on their own to warrant allowing Con over Cha for Sorcs. There was a UA Sorc subclass that let you use Con instead of Cha. Despite it being widely popular it never made it through playtest due to being broken as hell for this very reason.
Con is about your physical being: blood, vitality and endurance. Charisma is your inner presence, raw talent, personality and presence within the world. Charisma is "the you within impressing upon the external world", to put it fancifully. Con is used for racial magic - spells every member of the race is capable of. Charisma is for things more unique to you than your family/race.
A sorcerer derives their powers from a variety of sources. A hidden power in their bloodline that has arisen within them (draconic bloodline), a connection between their soul and a plane of existence (Wild Magic from Feywild or Shadow Magic from Shadowfell) or just having their spiritual essence altered from some bizarre event (Storm Sorcery).
Because most Sorcerers derive their power from an alteration to their essence/inner selves rather than something they gain from their race, Charisma is used instead of Con.
Because Sorcerers do not study or have to practice/learn the spells or commit them to memory they don't use Intelligence.
Regardless of origin the power is based on their inner being, presence and personality rather than from race or study. This is why they are Charisma based.
Strength: muscles, physical power Dexterity: movement, co-ordination, accuracy Constitution: physical body, resistance, immune system, blood, vitality, physical endurance. Intelligence: active mental ability, problem-solving, logic, memory, learning Wisdom: passive mental ability, primal instinct, senses, willpower Charisma: raw power, innate talent, presence, personality, spiritual essence, emotion, influencing the world around you.
Sorcerers by default do not get their powers "from their blood". Some do, especially those like Draconic Bloodline, but others may get their powers by being changed from a ritual, an encounter with a fey being, planar distortion. The power could manifest through blood, their soul, their mind, etc.
Charisma is not just about personality in the sense of social interaction. Charisma, even by real-world definition, is about your presence in the world and your ability to use what is within you to manipulate the world. It is the mark of your influence. Put simply, this is the "soul" stat. This is why when spells target you dimensionally like Plane Shift you make a Charisma save - it is a spell targeting your "presence in the world" which is what charisma really is.
The reason why dragonborn and genasi use Constitution is because these powers are natural to their race and is within their genes, their body. The powers of a sorcerer are not part of your race, it is an alteration that could be passed down in blood, but could also be a power in your soul - perhaps you were born with a connection to the Feywild causing you to become a Wild Magic Sorcerer, This may be because you were born in an area where the feywild and material plane overlap and may have nothing to do with your blood or ancestry.
Also, making any spellcaster constitution based is much, much too powerful when multiclassing. The drawback of multiclassing is so that when mixing martial based classes and spellcasting classes you are required to spread out your stats or be less effective in one. This is also the reason why Paladins are Charisma instead of Wisdom like Clerics despite the magic they both have coming from the same source (a deity). If they were both the same stat then it would be easier to multiclass (don't forget multiclassing has stat requirements) and you can become incredibly overpowered.
Most innate magic (as in innate spellcasting power, not tied to racial ability) is Charisma. It's actually rare for any innate spells to use Con. The reason for some to use Con is to indicate they are racial spell-like abilities rather than spellcasting. This harkens back to previous editions where "spells" and "spell-like abilities" were separate things.
Things may alter you to make you a Sorc but that is an alteration of you/your family, hence Cha not of your race, hence not Con.
I am aware there are other factors at play when multiclassing. But those factors are insufficient on their own to warrant allowing Con over Cha for Sorcs. There was a UA Sorc subclass that let you use Con instead of Cha. Despite it being widely popular it never made it through playtest due to being broken as hell for this very reason.
Con is about your physical being: blood, vitality and endurance. Charisma is your inner presence, raw talent, personality and presence within the world. Charisma is "the you within impressing upon the external world", to put it fancifully. Con is used for racial magic - spells every member of the race is capable of. Charisma is for things more unique to you than your family/race.
A sorcerer derives their powers from a variety of sources. A hidden power in their bloodline that has arisen within them (draconic bloodline), a connection between their soul and a plane of existence (Wild Magic from Feywild or Shadow Magic from Shadowfell) or just having their spiritual essence altered from some bizarre event (Storm Sorcery).
Because most Sorcerers derive their power from an alteration to their essence/inner selves rather than something they gain from their race, Charisma is used instead of Con.
Because Sorcerers do not study or have to practice/learn the spells or commit them to memory they don't use Intelligence.
Regardless of origin the power is based on their inner being, presence and personality rather than from race or study. This is why they are Charisma based.
Strength: muscles, physical power Dexterity: movement, co-ordination, accuracy Constitution: physical body, resistance, immune system, blood, vitality, physical endurance. Intelligence: active mental ability, problem-solving, logic, memory, learning Wisdom: passive mental ability, primal instinct, senses, willpower Charisma: raw power, innate talent, presence, personality, spiritual essence, emotion, influencing the world around you.
Wizards use their minds. Racial powers are from the Body. Sorcery is your Soul.
I respectfully disagree with your reasoning for charisma as the casting stat for sorcerers. as I already pointed out I believe constitution makes more sense. Only quoting yourself with all due respect only points out your opinion.... Above is simply my opinion, we just have differing views on what could be as is the discussion topic here...I don't think it overpowered as your argument states either. Bard, Warlock, Paladin are all charisma casters, Wizards are the lone Intelligence caster, I simply feel a natural spell caster makes more sense using Con. After all here is the "official" text from wizards describing the Sorcerer class:
Golden eyes flashing, a human stretches out her hand and unleashes the dragonfire that burns in her veins. As an inferno rages around her foes, leathery wings spread from her back and she takes to the air.
Long hair whipped by a conjured wind, a half-elf spreads his arms wide and throws his head back. Lifting him momentarily off the ground, a wave of magic surges up in him, through him, and out from him in a mighty blast of lightning.
Crouching behind a stalagmite, a halfling points a finger at a charging troglodyte. A blast of fire springs from her finger to strike the creature. She ducks back behind the rock formation with a grin, unaware that her wild magic has turned her skin bright blue.
Sorcerers carry a magical birthright conferred upon them by an exotic bloodline, some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces. One can’t study sorcery as one learns a language, any more than one can learn to live a legendary life. No one chooses sorcery; the power chooses the sorcerer.
Seems pretty straight forward having the power "burns in her veins" or "magic surges up in him, through him and out of him"...
Again, even if the Sorcerers power comes from a bloodline, they’re not slicing open their wrists and dancing naked under the moonlight to use their powers. Every other naturally magical creature with some semblance of thought derives their power based on their power of personality in invoking their powers and Sorcerers, being magical creatures, work the same way. Even if power burns in their veins and they start speaking in tongues, it’s not their bodies invoking this on their own.
Sorcerers by default do not get their powers "from their blood". Some do, especially those like Draconic Bloodline, but others may get their powers by being changed from a ritual, an encounter with a fey being, planar distortion. The power could manifest through blood, their soul, their mind, etc.
Charisma is not just about personality in the sense of social interaction. Charisma, even by real-world definition, is about your presence in the world and your ability to use what is within you to manipulate the world. It is the mark of your influence. Put simply, this is the "soul" stat. This is why when spells target you dimensionally like Plane Shift you make a Charisma save - it is a spell targeting your "presence in the world" which is what charisma really is.
The reason why dragonborn and genasi use Constitution is because these powers are natural to their race and is within their genes, their body. The powers of a sorcerer are not part of your race, it is an alteration that could be passed down in blood, but could also be a power in your soul - perhaps you were born with a connection to the Feywild causing you to become a Wild Magic Sorcerer, This may be because you were born in an area where the feywild and material plane overlap and may have nothing to do with your blood or ancestry.
Also, making any spellcaster constitution based is much, much too powerful when multiclassing. The drawback of multiclassing is so that when mixing martial based classes and spellcasting classes you are required to spread out your stats or be less effective in one. This is also the reason why Paladins are Charisma instead of Wisdom like Clerics despite the magic they both have coming from the same source (a deity). If they were both the same stat then it would be easier to multiclass (don't forget multiclassing has stat requirements) and you can become incredibly overpowered.
I don’t agree. 1st, loom at the Bard. It can multiclass into multiple things without having to change ability scores if you put a 15 in CHA and a 14 in DEX. (Using standard array)
Warlock only requires Charisma.
Sorcerer too!
Rogue only needs dexterity
if you put a 13 in Strength, you can also become:
Fighter! Needs dex and strength.
Paladin needs strength and Charisma
If you are a gnome, you also get (if you put 11 (or is it 12? I forget) into Intelligence) Wizard.
So now you can A:cast spells B:get them back as a short rest C:change some of them every rest D:use them to deal more damage E:get a +2 bonus on those ranges attack rolls F:sneak attack G:make more spells with sorcery points!
Monkish subclass. A little MAD with some DEX reliance in addition to the CHA and CON for sorcerers but MAD is almost a class trait for monks so...
Unarmored defense 10+ DEX + CHA
Martial arts as described in monk class but replace DEX with CHA and unarmed attacks are treated as weapons for spell purposes (e.g. booming blade et al.)
Ki: works off of sorcery points or ki points (you get 1/2 level plus CHA mod Ki points (but no higher than your level) after each short or long rest, starting at 2nd level).
Ki save works off of CHA instead of WIS
Flurry of blows per monk
Patient defense per monk
Step of wind per monk
Unarmored movement per monk
Deflect Missiles per monk
Slow Fall per monk
Stunning Strike per monk
Ki Empowered Strikes per monk
Evasion per monk
Stillness of Mind per monk
Purity of Body per monk
Tongue of Sun and Moon per monk
Diamond Soul per monk
Timeless Body per monk
Empty Body per monk
Perfect Self per monk
Pretty much everything other than Extra Attack. I know the list look long but so many of these abilities are very situational, roleplaying only or otherwise not mechanically useful (which is what leads to many of the complaints about the monk).
This class is VERY resource constrained and will be backed into using sorcery point to power ki abilities, however at least you have options. It has very low HP for melee so it really needs the mobility and defense abilities. The extra attack was removed because that's more of a pure fighter class thing. The rest seemed appropriate (note this class takes a huge leap in power at level 5 with access to fireball and stunning strike but they do not synergize with one another (you can only do one or the other) so I didn't really worry about it. The cantrips (like booming blasde) however do synergize well with the new monk abiltiies). Replaced WIS with CHA everywhere I could find it and replaced DEX with CHA in one place (unarmed hit and dmg modifiers).
Every sorcerer I have seen recently is a multiclass. Noone seems to be playing a straight sorcerer when you can get the capstone ability with 3 levels of warlock (along with a ton of other goodies, see burst dmg below), sure you lose out on an ASI and a sorcerous origin feature too but the exchange is pretty one sided. It provides an alternative to all those sorlock/sorcadin/sorlockadin multi-classes that seem to be taking over the game; sure those multiclasses may still be mechanically better with burst dpr of 300+ dmg, but you get melee flavor in a sorcerer class for those campaigns that don't allow multiclassing.
The rest seemed appropriate (note this class takes a huge leap in power at level 5 with access to fireball and stunning strike but they do not synergize with one another (you can only do one or the other) so I didn't really worry about it.
Action to attack, stunning strike (1 point). Creature stunned. Move away 30 ft (no AoO as creature stunned). Quicken Metamagic Firefall (2 Sorc Points): creature auto-fails Dex save.
I can see how metamagic + stunning and other monk features can get a little bit exploity. Now any monk + sorc (sonk? morc?) multiclass can do this but the downside there is separate sorc and ki point pools and reduced resource synergy to balance these little exploitables. Bypassing these is a bit much, really. You've basically made somebody a Full Monk and Full Sorc all in one.
The rest seemed appropriate (note this class takes a huge leap in power at level 5 with access to fireball and stunning strike but they do not synergize with one another (you can only do one or the other) so I didn't really worry about it.
Action to attack, stunning strike (1 point). Creature stunned. Move away 30 ft (no AoO as creature stunned). Quicken Metamagic Firefall (2 Sorc Points): creature auto-fails Dex save.
I can see how metamagic + stunning and other monk features can get a little bit exploity. Now any monk + sorc (sonk? morc?) multiclass can do this but the downside there is separate sorc and ki point pools and reduced resource synergy to balance these little exploitables. Bypassing these is a bit much, really. You've basically made somebody a Full Monk and Full Sorc all in one.
Fireball is not as useful once melee is engaged. You presumably have other melee characters in fireball range, does everybody back up 30'? Are there no other monsters that can get an attack of opportunity against them when they do this? But if stunning strike is too powerful then it can go.
Monk ki points refresh every short rest and is meant to. You need a separate ki pool. Perhaps limit it to CHA Mod.
Sorcerers lost a LOT of their comparative advantage over other casters when they were no longer the only class that didn't have to memorize specific spells at the beginning of the day. Every other caster class has a melee subclass that makes them melee capable. Monks have always been a bit ******. I thought perhaps two ****** classes would amount to one good class. Maybe we get rid of all the abilities from slowfall on down and change unarmored defense to 10+CON+CHA to reduce the MADness.
At this point I'm wondering whether this is much better than any of the current ****** sorcerer subclasses. Remember, its not that sorceers are unpopular. Straight sorcerers are unpopular. Sorlocks, sorcadins, and sorlockadins are all very popular. In what way would this be as powerful as a 2 or 3 level dip in warlock or a 2 level dip in paladin?
I will get around to other points but first... Monks are ******?! Like how?! My monks have been able to out-damage the rest of the party combined. A 4E monk of reasonable level can go toe-to-toe with dragons - 20th level they can forgo all their ki for a 21d10 strike with 30 ft range and push away 20 ft and render prone -- every short rest. Even a fighter with action surges can never match that . Shadow Monks are incredibly manouvreable and have great to-hit ratios thanks to guaranteed advantage on a hit every turn in dim-light/darkness and make expert spies. Open Hand monks have great battle control while still dealing lots of damage. Monks played right have a higher-damage potential for sustained fights and for-the-day than most other classes bar the fighter or paladins! How are they ****** in any way? I think people who complain about monks being ****** just don't know how to play one effectively.
Anyway, as somebody who does prefer playing straight sorc, while I do agree they are underpowered compared to other spellcasters, they are not lacking enough to just give them all the abilities of monks. Monks get a lot of abilities but those abilities on their own are more situational and overly reliant on resource. Sorcs metamagic and ability to just give themselves spell slots (and note, at lower levels it can give you access to higher spell slots than you normally get, since the conversion is not restricted by level: just by sorc point cost: a level 4 sorc should only have level 2 spells, but can use their 4 points to make a level 3 spell slot). The metamagic when used correctly can be extremely helpful and their subclass abilities are often pretty good. I do agree a few levels dip into some other class can be useful at later levels, however, that is not enough to say going full sorc is some bad thing. It's more preference and how played rather than the class being lacking.
Also, just because a class synergises well for certain multiclasses doesn't mean the full version is bad. Paladins are a mary-sue class that are great on their own or as a multiclass with almost any class, barb goes well with fighter, ranger synergises very well with monk or rogues and clerics can synergise quite well with any class except barb. Multiclassing, in general, is very popular. The popularity of sorc multiclasses is not enough of an indication that full sorcs are bad - full sorcs can be very good, if you know how to play the class. And that's the key here: sometimes it's not how much the class is lacking but rather how you are playing it. Sorcs are not meant to be played the same way as a wizard, for instance, and when people do they feel the sorc is lacking (because their playstyle is more suited to the wizard and should have chosen that).
Now, a melee based subclass would be good: but I think you should perhaps think more along the lines of hexblade/eldritch knight style rather than just copying monk. Keep the abilities to the same levels as a normal subclass. Have features that are designed to work with the sorc features not just entirely break the setup going "hey, let's multiclass without any of the multiclass balances".
The monk features, as they are, do not synergise that well with Sorc - while you can take inspiration from monk in the whole "fight with your magical fists" and such, I'd say you should re-work the features not just copy them, to fit better with spellcasting, metamagic, and remember you are a full spellcaster that will have access to stuff like Wish or teleporting to any place/plane they could want or Gate-ing some lava in from a plane of fire or destroying towns with meteor swarms at a whim. Adding an entire class of melee features on top with no drawbacks at all is insanely OP.
The revised version above only adds unarmored defense, and martial arts (including ki powered flurry of blows, dodge, disengage/dash) and unarmored movement. Most subclasses get that much don't they? Limiting the Ki to CHA mod (capped at level) also creates resource bottlenecks.
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Yes. I would make the sorcerer class the way it was in 3.5, and stop breaking what didn't need to be fixed. The whole point of the Sorcerer was to mitigate the miserable rigidity of the Vancian magic system - to have the powers of a Wizard without the unmagical absurdity of "memorizing spells" and being unable to modify your spells on the fly. Since 5e took spontaneous spellcasting away as the providence of the Sorcerer and gave it to all spellcasters while limiting the spells knowable for a Sorcerer to an absurdly limited degree, taking away the Sorcerer's ability to cast spells more often (Sorcery points need to be used for metamagic to be effective, and spell slots have to be burned for sorcery points to have enough of them to be worthwhile), while giving the Sorcerer a limited set of options for modifying their spells in a few specific ways. At higher levels this makes them powerful blasters, but otherwise very magically limited. The only compelling reason to choose a Sorcerer over a Wizard in 5e is if you REALLY like the backstory of innate magic and heavily invest in playing and developing their relationship with their background. However, without the mechanics to back up that innate connection, the sorcerer still winds up forced to play a niche role and the background becomes far less compelling. A sorcerer should be a spellcasting savant - someone who intuitively feels and understands magic and can make it do things few or no others can - a brilliant magical prodigy - but is unable to communicate how they do what they do to anyone else because they don't use the formulas/magical writing that Wizards do. I would say that they may actually understand magical theory and deeper, hidden realities underlying magic in a way that most Wizards don't, but either couldn't explain it to anyone else or have no interest in doing so. Their magic should be more specialized than a Wizard's, but not to the horrendous degree they limited it to in 5e. 15 spells known is NOT enough. 4 metamagics known total is NOT enough, nor is the scope of metamagic wide enough. Sorcerers should be able to do things like take the dimensions of any area affect spell (Fireball becomes a Fire cone or a Fire Beam or a Fire Cube), switch the element of a spell (Fireball becomes Lightning ball or a Thunderball, etc), or warp the underlying currents of magical energy (wrest control of a spell from another spellcaster, or temporarily create zones of wild magic, or even spontaneously pluck magical effects out of raw magic that they may or may not ever be able to repeat again). To balance their power, these abilities would come with a cost - whenever a sorcerer twists magic like this, there is less than insignificant chance that the magic outright fails, goes completely out of control or backfires - causing wildmagic surges far more random and dangerous than anything on the wildmagic table, or potentially exploding in their face causing massive damage to the sorcerer (and potentially those around them). And before anyone says "that would make them too powerful and break the game balance", I would remind them that Sorcerers are still squishy mages, the power creep could be mitigated by limited the number of times per day a Sorcerer could do such manipulations, and that a more powerful character can always be balanced by more powerful monsters (don't even get me started on 5e concentration rules - I know everyone will shout "BUT THE GAME BALANCE"). The way to balance the "quadratic spellcasters" that overshadow everyone else is not by taking things away and nerfing them, but by improving the non spellcasters so that they have abilities to match, or at least make them as fun/interesting to play. Maybe in fantasy worlds with powerful magic, mages SHOULD overshadow other classes (to a certain degree, in certain situations).
I'm kind of going off topic and rambling here, but long story short - the Sorcerer class become something in 5e other than it was originally intended to be in, and the unique features they gave them instead (4 metamagics by level 20) do NOT make up for it. They just limit what the class is capable of and eliminate roleplaying possibilities, to an absurd degree. A character that is defined by their innate relationship to magic should be able to take it in directions beyond the wildest imaginings of others, rather than being constricted in their magic.
Honestly I think they need more known spells. The wizard gets two spells every level, where the sorcerer doesn't even get one spell per level. They should get a spell per level and they should also have access to all the wizard spell list. Their spell list should be the same.
Platinum Dragon wizard.
I found this on Unearthed Arcana, and the Origin spells really look good, along with the other changes and subclasses.
Subclass Evaluations So Far:
Sorcerer
Warlock
My statblock. Fear me!
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That is amazing. I really like it for the most part and would love to play some of these. I wish my DM would allow some of them in our sessions now. I honestly wish that they would just redo something official about the spells known because my DM only allows official material. When I DM again I think I will use this to make some villains though. Thanks a lot for this. I really like what they did here except I think that the Divine Soul is better than the God Touched because it can use both spell list. keep that and the God Touched is amazing. Although I do understand why it was made that way and that would be great for multi-classing. I actually made a Divine Soul Sor. once that was a dwarf that thought he was a cleric and only picked from the Cleric spell list.
Platinum Dragon wizard.
Hey man, glad to help! I really like the Raw Magic, since it gives you a feel of total power over magic, and still has some of the Wild Magic traits.
Subclass Evaluations So Far:
Sorcerer
Warlock
My statblock. Fear me!
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Counters here(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
I really hope that Wizards will make some kind of Revised edition for the Sorcerer. Currently, sorcerer's are just bad wizards :(. I would give them ritual casting or more spells+more metamagic points. Somehow Mike and Co do not want to listen to the community and they spend 10100101 years trying to fix issues that exist.
Hi Fewwy! I think that in most areas, Sorcerers are fine. Ritual casting doesn't quite fit the theme with Sorcerer, as a ritual is learned, not an innate ability. More sorcery points are something to look at, but might require a lot more playtesting. The subclasses for sorcerer are much stronger than the ones for wizard(In my opinion). As for more spells, a user on Unearthed Arcana made this. I think you'll like it. Hope this helped!
P.S. Remember that you don't have to follow the rules to the letter. If you want to add more spells or sorcery points, go ahead, as long as the DM is fine with it. D&D is meant to be a toolset, not rules set in stone.
Subclass Evaluations So Far:
Sorcerer
Warlock
My statblock. Fear me!
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Counters here(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
Here's a weird idea: make metamagic free for sorcerer cantrips. (Cantrips gained from race/feats/multiclassing still have their phb cost.)
Some metamagics (like heightened and empowered) probably should continue to have a cost when used on cantrips. But I think that the metamagics that other classes can recreate on select cantrips for free (distant, quickened, twinned, etc), should probably be free for sorcerers' cantrips as well.
Each Sorcerer subclass should have a list of 1st lvl through 5th level appropriately themed spells that are added to their know spell list (5 in total) bring Sorcerer’s know spells up to 20 at 20th level.
obviously you wouldn’t be able to unlearn or switch out those particular spells
For anyone subscribed and interested, I've posted an Int-based Sorc Subclass in the following thread, which has been vetted by my DM circle. So time for the forum to rip it apart!
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/sorcerer/31656-arcane-soul-int-based-sorc-subclass
The biggest change I would make is change the casting stat to Constitution.
There is already too many Charisma casters, As a caster who gains their powers through Blood mostly, I recommend Constitution as the casting stat.
2nd instead of spell slots I would use spell points, based on the DMG alternate rule.
3rd I would create bonus spells known based on subclass over the existing known spells. They would be mostly to supplement early levels so nothing extra after 3rd level known spells bonus. Starting at 1st get two bonus 1st level spells, at 3rd 1 bonus 2nd known, and at 5th one bonus 3rd level spell.
Alternately I came accross this below idea on a discussion form a Youtube channel for extra spells known for sorcerers, its pretty good going further than my suggestion:
Pasted from <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucVoh8GNn-Q>
This has been discussed multiple times before in other threads/forums so I am just going to quote what I have already said:
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I respectfully disagree with your reasoning for charisma as the casting stat for sorcerers. as I already pointed out I believe constitution makes more sense. Only quoting yourself with all due respect only points out your opinion....
Above is simply my opinion, we just have differing views on what could be as is the discussion topic here...I don't think it overpowered as your argument states either. Bard, Warlock, Paladin are all charisma casters, Wizards are the lone Intelligence caster, I simply feel a natural spell caster makes more sense using Con. After all here is the "official" text from wizards describing the Sorcerer class:
Seems pretty straight forward having the power "burns in her veins" or "magic surges up in him, through him and out of him"...
Again, even if the Sorcerers power comes from a bloodline, they’re not slicing open their wrists and dancing naked under the moonlight to use their powers. Every other naturally magical creature with some semblance of thought derives their power based on their power of personality in invoking their powers and Sorcerers, being magical creatures, work the same way. Even if power burns in their veins and they start speaking in tongues, it’s not their bodies invoking this on their own.
Well, yes, but one second. I want to tackle this.
I don’t agree. 1st, loom at the Bard. It can multiclass into multiple things without having to change ability scores if you put a 15 in CHA and a 14 in DEX. (Using standard array)
Warlock only requires Charisma.
Sorcerer too!
Rogue only needs dexterity
if you put a 13 in Strength, you can also become:
Fighter! Needs dex and strength.
Paladin needs strength and Charisma
If you are a gnome, you also get (if you put 11 (or is it 12? I forget) into Intelligence) Wizard.
So now you can A:cast spells B:get them back as a short rest C:change some of them every rest D:use them to deal more damage E:get a +2 bonus on those ranges attack rolls F:sneak attack G:make more spells with sorcery points!
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Monkish subclass. A little MAD with some DEX reliance in addition to the CHA and CON for sorcerers but MAD is almost a class trait for monks so...
Unarmored defense 10+ DEX + CHA
Martial arts as described in monk class but replace DEX with CHA and unarmed attacks are treated as weapons for spell purposes (e.g. booming blade et al.)
Ki: works off of sorcery points or ki points (you get 1/2 level plus CHA mod Ki points (but no higher than your level) after each short or long rest, starting at 2nd level).
Ki save works off of CHA instead of WIS
Flurry of blows per monk
Patient defense per monk
Step of wind per monk
Unarmored movement per monk
Deflect Missiles per monk
Slow Fall per monk
Stunning Strike per monk
Ki Empowered Strikes per monk
Evasion per monk
Stillness of Mind per monk
Purity of Body per monk
Tongue of Sun and Moon per monk
Diamond Soul per monk
Timeless Body per monk
Empty Body per monk
Perfect Self per monk
Pretty much everything other than Extra Attack. I know the list look long but so many of these abilities are very situational, roleplaying only or otherwise not mechanically useful (which is what leads to many of the complaints about the monk).
This class is VERY resource constrained and will be backed into using sorcery point to power ki abilities, however at least you have options. It has very low HP for melee so it really needs the mobility and defense abilities. The extra attack was removed because that's more of a pure fighter class thing. The rest seemed appropriate (note this class takes a huge leap in power at level 5 with access to fireball and stunning strike but they do not synergize with one another (you can only do one or the other) so I didn't really worry about it. The cantrips (like booming blasde) however do synergize well with the new monk abiltiies). Replaced WIS with CHA everywhere I could find it and replaced DEX with CHA in one place (unarmed hit and dmg modifiers).
Every sorcerer I have seen recently is a multiclass. Noone seems to be playing a straight sorcerer when you can get the capstone ability with 3 levels of warlock (along with a ton of other goodies, see burst dmg below), sure you lose out on an ASI and a sorcerous origin feature too but the exchange is pretty one sided. It provides an alternative to all those sorlock/sorcadin/sorlockadin multi-classes that seem to be taking over the game; sure those multiclasses may still be mechanically better with burst dpr of 300+ dmg, but you get melee flavor in a sorcerer class for those campaigns that don't allow multiclassing.
Action to attack, stunning strike (1 point). Creature stunned. Move away 30 ft (no AoO as creature stunned). Quicken Metamagic Firefall (2 Sorc Points): creature auto-fails Dex save.
I can see how metamagic + stunning and other monk features can get a little bit exploity. Now any monk + sorc (sonk? morc?) multiclass can do this but the downside there is separate sorc and ki point pools and reduced resource synergy to balance these little exploitables. Bypassing these is a bit much, really. You've basically made somebody a Full Monk and Full Sorc all in one.
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Fireball is not as useful once melee is engaged. You presumably have other melee characters in fireball range, does everybody back up 30'? Are there no other monsters that can get an attack of opportunity against them when they do this? But if stunning strike is too powerful then it can go.
Monk ki points refresh every short rest and is meant to. You need a separate ki pool. Perhaps limit it to CHA Mod.
Sorcerers lost a LOT of their comparative advantage over other casters when they were no longer the only class that didn't have to memorize specific spells at the beginning of the day. Every other caster class has a melee subclass that makes them melee capable. Monks have always been a bit ******. I thought perhaps two ****** classes would amount to one good class. Maybe we get rid of all the abilities from slowfall on down and change unarmored defense to 10+CON+CHA to reduce the MADness.
At this point I'm wondering whether this is much better than any of the current ****** sorcerer subclasses. Remember, its not that sorceers are unpopular. Straight sorcerers are unpopular. Sorlocks, sorcadins, and sorlockadins are all very popular. In what way would this be as powerful as a 2 or 3 level dip in warlock or a 2 level dip in paladin?
I will get around to other points but first... Monks are ******?! Like how?! My monks have been able to out-damage the rest of the party combined. A 4E monk of reasonable level can go toe-to-toe with dragons - 20th level they can forgo all their ki for a 21d10 strike with 30 ft range and push away 20 ft and render prone -- every short rest. Even a fighter with action surges can never match that . Shadow Monks are incredibly manouvreable and have great to-hit ratios thanks to guaranteed advantage on a hit every turn in dim-light/darkness and make expert spies. Open Hand monks have great battle control while still dealing lots of damage. Monks played right have a higher-damage potential for sustained fights and for-the-day than most other classes bar the fighter or paladins! How are they ****** in any way? I think people who complain about monks being ****** just don't know how to play one effectively.
Anyway, as somebody who does prefer playing straight sorc, while I do agree they are underpowered compared to other spellcasters, they are not lacking enough to just give them all the abilities of monks. Monks get a lot of abilities but those abilities on their own are more situational and overly reliant on resource. Sorcs metamagic and ability to just give themselves spell slots (and note, at lower levels it can give you access to higher spell slots than you normally get, since the conversion is not restricted by level: just by sorc point cost: a level 4 sorc should only have level 2 spells, but can use their 4 points to make a level 3 spell slot). The metamagic when used correctly can be extremely helpful and their subclass abilities are often pretty good. I do agree a few levels dip into some other class can be useful at later levels, however, that is not enough to say going full sorc is some bad thing. It's more preference and how played rather than the class being lacking.
Also, just because a class synergises well for certain multiclasses doesn't mean the full version is bad. Paladins are a mary-sue class that are great on their own or as a multiclass with almost any class, barb goes well with fighter, ranger synergises very well with monk or rogues and clerics can synergise quite well with any class except barb. Multiclassing, in general, is very popular. The popularity of sorc multiclasses is not enough of an indication that full sorcs are bad - full sorcs can be very good, if you know how to play the class. And that's the key here: sometimes it's not how much the class is lacking but rather how you are playing it. Sorcs are not meant to be played the same way as a wizard, for instance, and when people do they feel the sorc is lacking (because their playstyle is more suited to the wizard and should have chosen that).
Now, a melee based subclass would be good: but I think you should perhaps think more along the lines of hexblade/eldritch knight style rather than just copying monk. Keep the abilities to the same levels as a normal subclass. Have features that are designed to work with the sorc features not just entirely break the setup going "hey, let's multiclass without any of the multiclass balances".
The monk features, as they are, do not synergise that well with Sorc - while you can take inspiration from monk in the whole "fight with your magical fists" and such, I'd say you should re-work the features not just copy them, to fit better with spellcasting, metamagic, and remember you are a full spellcaster that will have access to stuff like Wish or teleporting to any place/plane they could want or Gate-ing some lava in from a plane of fire or destroying towns with meteor swarms at a whim. Adding an entire class of melee features on top with no drawbacks at all is insanely OP.
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The revised version above only adds unarmored defense, and martial arts (including ki powered flurry of blows, dodge, disengage/dash) and unarmored movement. Most subclasses get that much don't they? Limiting the Ki to CHA mod (capped at level) also creates resource bottlenecks.