In your opinion is warlock bad? Do you think it needs to multiclass, or is only a class that is dipped into multiclassing for other classes. I want to play a tiefling fiend patron, chain pact, that has the invocation that allow him to cast disguise self at will, along with getting the actor feat. My goal is to create a character that can infidelity keep changing his appearance to suit the situation, get people to trust him, or frame others, but is warlock not the right class for this, does warlock get outshone by others
If you want to do something like that I'd highly suggest picking up some levels in bard, you'd get access to expertise in order to increase the power of your charisma rolls. You'd also grab the vicious mockery cantrip. Warlock definitely isn't a bad class at all. I don't typically play Warlock but whenever I play bard I ALWAYS dip 2 levels into bard to snag the sweet perks that come along with it (one of the biggest being eldritch blast).
Warlock is great on its own or as a dip. In your situation its a great choice. As Tyrannosary said a bard dip could be beneficial, but Warlock gives a lot of features you can manage indefinitely including also casting Silent Image, Arcane Eye, Alter Self, and even Invisibility at will. Its the perfect class for this sort of subterfuge.
Warlock is erm..complex for a spell caster. They have limited known spells, VERY limited spell slots, but balance it with slots that refresh on Short Rests, the most potent cantrip (Eldritch Blast) and most OP subclass (IMHO) in the game -The Hexblade. But no, they are not bad, but they are not to everyone's taste, and the concept of Warlock/Patron relationships must be explored with the DM before you build the PC.
If you want to do something like that I'd highly suggest picking up some levels in bard, you'd get access to expertise in order to increase the power of your charisma rolls. You'd also grab the vicious mockery cantrip.
Instead of dipping into bard for vicious mockery, consider seeing if your DM will let you alter your Pact spells a bit to fit it in as part of your Pact magic. Not all demonic patrons offer the same spells to everyone (unless you want to just sign the most standard of contracts). I'd check with your DM to maybe customize your spell list a little to reflect who your Patron is.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Looking at Mandalore's full set of threads and inquiries if say he's way ahead of you on that point. But the expertise is the real boon of the dip, not to mention a few first level spell slots.
I went with the fiend pact for my warlock, but it was aid that he blade is the most op subclass rn. Would that subclass be more beneficial right now, or maybe some other patron?
Hexblade is very good, allowing the Warlock to wear medium armor and make weapon attacks with Charisma as the Ability score, however I don't think it would benefit you with the character you have stated you intend to create. Hexblade focuses and physical combat, unlike the other patrons.
My character plans to use the power of their patron to mark people of power, rise through the ranks by disguising himself as other people, and then finally killing their target. I would think that hexblade could work because of the baleful curse you can place on someone. It doesn't seem like you need to use melee in order to get the benefits of the extra damage, and higher chance to get a crit.
Yes, Hexblade would aid in ultimately killing your target. Alternateively the Archfey would help to charm your targets and avoid notice. The Great Old One could help protect against such effects.
- unless short rest are 15 minutes. Hes weak spell wise.
- not a big spell choice.
- most invocations only add more spells to his list.
- more often then not... Hes a one button eldritch class.
Now that said... Warlock is worth picking if you a good dm who does give you back your spells once in a while. And warlock can easily go up to level 15 before losing potentials. But to me i rarely ever go beyond level 6. Not because it sucks but because of what needs to be done for warlock to be better at what it does.. Heres my reasoning..
Warlock needs...
- more spells slots to cast his first and second level spells. Because nobody wanna use a 5th level spell slot for hex alone.
- need more defense if he is a blade pact melee warlock.
- pact features are great needs em a lot.
So basically i just said that warlock only real downfall is spell slots. And that if you multiclass its for the pact features... So to answer your question... Yes id multiclass all the time. But not because warlocks. Mainly because all classes lose much until their capstones. So all classes id multi class.
Basically anything is possible. Thats how good the warlock is at being mixed with other classes. Because short rest spell slots are that awesome. Invocations really brings the options up too. But you have to know that while pure warlock seems to lack spells versatility. What makes him strong is his stability.
As an exemple...
Fighter 14 / warlock 6 is a much better deal then eldritch knight. So this setup allows you to go battle master and have spells. It strickly powers up both classes. With 3 invocations. 2 short rest slots. 4 superiority dice. Action surge. Some healing. And 2 othe pact features. Thats a lot of versatility as well as stability.
That also tells you how good archetypes are. Thus why multiclassing is that strong. Even if you lose 1 or 2 ABSI or forgo your level 9 spells.
Exemple... Any class with a single level of cleric of life transforms anyone into the dedicated healer. Of course best classes are druids and sorcerers.
Hope this gives you some insight into it.
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- unless short rest are 15 minutes. Hes weak spell wise.
If a party is out dungeon crawling or traveling most of the day, they're probably going to take at least 2 short rests; that's all they need to keep up with other spellcasters. Everyone has to stop and eat some time, and plenty of other classes depend on short rests too.
Warlock needs...
- more spells slots to cast his first and second level spells. Because nobody wanna use a 5th level spell slot for hex alone.
Getting 24 times the usual duration is a pretty good deal if you ask me.
- need more defense if he is a blade pact melee warlock.
This is true, but XGtE improved the situation a lot with Improved Pact Weapon and the Hexblade subclass.
- unless short rest are 15 minutes. Hes weak spell wise.
If a party is out dungeon crawling or traveling most of the day, they're probably going to take at least 2 short rests; that's all they need to keep up with other spellcasters. Everyone has to stop and eat some time, and plenty of other classes depend on short rests too.
Warlock needs...
- more spells slots to cast his first and second level spells. Because nobody wanna use a 5th level spell slot for hex alone.
Getting 24 times the usual duration is a pretty good deal if you ask me.
- need more defense if he is a blade pact melee warlock.
This is true, but XGtE improved the situation a lot with Improved Pact Weapon and the Hexblade subclass.
1 hour rest in a dungeon only gives you tons of random encounter. 1 hour is too long for short rest. Thats why i ask my player the kind of rest they want. If they tell me were praying for spells. I give them 15 minutes short rest which is much more logical. If they need to heal a lot then 1 hour. The fault about rest is not the warlocks fault but he suffers from it. After all 4 spell slots is very not much compared to the 21 spell slots a full caster gets. More spell slots is a must on warlocks unless the dm accepts 15 minutes rest to get them back. Same with fighter superiority dice and bard inspirations. Starting a fight without any is ridiculous and 1 hour rest every fights is also ridiculous. Rest that are 15min up to 60min depending on what you do is a great way to encourage having those rests.
If you wanna lose a 5t5th level slot for that go for it... But to me that is classic dps that only help the 1 button bullshit that warlock is. Not to mention you have to cast that before combat take a rest and gain back slots. Its also concentration thus you cannot cast numerous other spells. So you may never get the full 24 hours. Having lower slots availlable completely avoid that drawback.
I was talking about spells like absorb elements and shield which the warlocks dont have enough slots to pump thru. Armor of agathys is pretty much the only spell you wanna cast at 5th level. Overall a blade pact warlock isnt even on par with a wizard of the bladesong. Hexblade sure helps... But what about a warlock who do not wanna be a hexblade ? Improved pact weapon didnt give any defenses at all. So i dont know why you said that.
Overall.. A warlock is desperately needing more spells slots to work. Something easily fixed by just multiclassing or getting a ring of spell storing. Or you could also get magic initiate feat which also is a viable tactic.
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1 hour rest in a dungeon only gives you tons of random encounter.
You say this as if it's a fact, but there's no rule that requires this. The DM decides if and when a random encounter is warranted, and it's dubious that there isn't a single location in a dungeon that can be secured for a short rest.
If you wanna lose a 5t5th level slot for that go for it... But to me that is classic dps that only help the 1 button bullshit that warlock is.
Not liking a class's mechanics isn't the same as the class being bad or poorly designed.
Improved pact weapon didnt give any defenses at all. So i dont know why you said that.
Improved Pact Weapon gives you the option of using a bow or crossbow as your pact weapon. Not being in melee range is a pretty good way to stay alive.
Overall.. A warlock is desperately needing more spells slots to work.
Not really. Like I said, a couple of rests a day is all a Warlock needs to keep up with other spellcasters. They may have fewer slots in total, but they get to cast spells at max level much more often than other classes. A 5th level wizard only gets 2 fireballs a day. A warlock is ready to shoot two more every time they take a rest.
In spite of this opinion, Warlock is not, in fact, dependant on house ruling rest mechanics. It is a strong class beginning to end due to the numerous spells available that do not require the use of spell slots (or even using one spell slot that lasts 24 hours). These features are specifically mentioned in the OP.
On the new topic of rest mechanics. I would give players encounters if they intended to rest for 1 hour or 15 minutes alike. There's no need to complicate rests by dividing them into more than the outlined long and short rests.
On a whole different topic. Sometimes it's possible to convey an idea more clearly with fewer words...
Playing a warlock - i think it is a good thing to point out your need for rest to the group. If you have someone in your group able to cast catnip - the time goes down a lot. Usually, if the situation isn't time sensitive (and reasonable DMs should in most encounters plan for players to be able to rest unless the story demands otherwise) you should allow classes reliant on those mechanics the downtime with whatever reason ingame necessary. If downtime isn't a thing in your games, you should in general provide some compensation for warlocks imho.
Warlocks work just fine with only 2 spell slots. It rather depends on how you build your character. Considering most of the campaigns you end up playing in end up at level 9-10, you shouldn't run into any hard issues. Imho the warlock is one of the most versatile classes around.
I wonder how lucky you guys are to have groups who just do not rest every single fights. And those who say ressource management... Well... How about your bard giving you only 1 single inspiration per fight just to "manage" ressources. Or that fighter or monk never using their ressources because "management" just saying... Warlock who cast hex at 24 hours and then never cast anything else because only 1 slot left is whack. It also makes you dependant on the one button strategy. Hence why people badly wanted the hex blade. Because eldritch blast build just sucked. Then again being able to smite only two times while pal and rogue does it much more then that.
Contrary to what you guys think... Warlock is always considered lacking in spell slots on numerous sites about min maxing. When it comes to min maxing.. I have yet to see any warlock go full level 20. They all multiclass into more spell slots. This... Is how you effectively see the weakness of classes. The same way i never see a rogue go beyond 11 for reliable talent.
Again for rests... Im not the only one thinking that 1 hour to rest a too long for so little benefits. Were supposed to have 2 per day before long rest. Yeah right... After first nobody has anymore hds. Maybe 1 or 2 left. Its far less of a problem now that my players are level 12 but back up 4 or 5 levels and they were trying long resting every fights. And yes they knew how to manage ressources. But all of my 4 or 5 groups have all said the same thing... Not being able to play your class because of "management" just sucks.
Finishing with this... You as a person at your job... You cant do it if you do not have an hour to rest every breaks ? As far as i am concerned... A 15 minute break is sufficient to me. Also a bard needs an hour to think up new inspirations ? Wow not much of a performer is he ? Same for fighter... Not much of a strategist if he need to rethink how to lounge every hours. That simply makes no senses. The 1 hour only really make sense for healing wounds. That was the point of me saying short rest are too long.
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In your opinion is warlock bad? Do you think it needs to multiclass, or is only a class that is dipped into multiclassing for other classes. I want to play a tiefling fiend patron, chain pact, that has the invocation that allow him to cast disguise self at will, along with getting the actor feat. My goal is to create a character that can infidelity keep changing his appearance to suit the situation, get people to trust him, or frame others, but is warlock not the right class for this, does warlock get outshone by others
If you want to do something like that I'd highly suggest picking up some levels in bard, you'd get access to expertise in order to increase the power of your charisma rolls. You'd also grab the vicious mockery cantrip. Warlock definitely isn't a bad class at all. I don't typically play Warlock but whenever I play bard I ALWAYS dip 2 levels into bard to snag the sweet perks that come along with it (one of the biggest being eldritch blast).
Warlock is great on its own or as a dip. In your situation its a great choice. As Tyrannosary said a bard dip could be beneficial, but Warlock gives a lot of features you can manage indefinitely including also casting Silent Image, Arcane Eye, Alter Self, and even Invisibility at will. Its the perfect class for this sort of subterfuge.
Extended Signature
Warlock is erm..complex for a spell caster. They have limited known spells, VERY limited spell slots, but balance it with slots that refresh on Short Rests, the most potent cantrip (Eldritch Blast) and most OP subclass (IMHO) in the game -The Hexblade. But no, they are not bad, but they are not to everyone's taste, and the concept of Warlock/Patron relationships must be explored with the DM before you build the PC.
Variant Tieflings can learn Vicious Mockery and Charm Person in place of Infernal Legacy.
Looking at Mandalore's full set of threads and inquiries if say he's way ahead of you on that point. But the expertise is the real boon of the dip, not to mention a few first level spell slots.
Extended Signature
I went with the fiend pact for my warlock, but it was aid that he blade is the most op subclass rn. Would that subclass be more beneficial right now, or maybe some other patron?
Hexblade is very good, allowing the Warlock to wear medium armor and make weapon attacks with Charisma as the Ability score, however I don't think it would benefit you with the character you have stated you intend to create. Hexblade focuses and physical combat, unlike the other patrons.
Extended Signature
My character plans to use the power of their patron to mark people of power, rise through the ranks by disguising himself as other people, and then finally killing their target. I would think that hexblade could work because of the baleful curse you can place on someone. It doesn't seem like you need to use melee in order to get the benefits of the extra damage, and higher chance to get a crit.
Yes, Hexblade would aid in ultimately killing your target. Alternateively the Archfey would help to charm your targets and avoid notice. The Great Old One could help protect against such effects.
Extended Signature
my beef with warlock goes as follow...
PROS
- regain spell slots fast
- gains tons of usefull skills with invocations.
- has very good pact options.
- always cast at higher levels thus support much.
CONS
- unless short rest are 15 minutes. Hes weak spell wise.
- not a big spell choice.
- most invocations only add more spells to his list.
- more often then not... Hes a one button eldritch class.
Now that said... Warlock is worth picking if you a good dm who does give you back your spells once in a while. And warlock can easily go up to level 15 before losing potentials. But to me i rarely ever go beyond level 6. Not because it sucks but because of what needs to be done for warlock to be better at what it does.. Heres my reasoning..
Warlock needs...
- more spells slots to cast his first and second level spells. Because nobody wanna use a 5th level spell slot for hex alone.
- need more defense if he is a blade pact melee warlock.
- pact features are great needs em a lot.
So basically i just said that warlock only real downfall is spell slots. And that if you multiclass its for the pact features... So to answer your question... Yes id multiclass all the time. But not because warlocks. Mainly because all classes lose much until their capstones. So all classes id multi class.
Heres combinations that works.
- barbarian 14 / warlock 6 (inverse possible)
- fighter 14 / warlock 6 (inverse possible)
- sorcerer, bard 14 / warlock 6 (inverse possible)
Basically anything is possible. Thats how good the warlock is at being mixed with other classes. Because short rest spell slots are that awesome. Invocations really brings the options up too. But you have to know that while pure warlock seems to lack spells versatility. What makes him strong is his stability.
As an exemple...
Fighter 14 / warlock 6 is a much better deal then eldritch knight. So this setup allows you to go battle master and have spells. It strickly powers up both classes. With 3 invocations. 2 short rest slots. 4 superiority dice. Action surge. Some healing. And 2 othe pact features. Thats a lot of versatility as well as stability.
That also tells you how good archetypes are. Thus why multiclassing is that strong. Even if you lose 1 or 2 ABSI or forgo your level 9 spells.
Exemple... Any class with a single level of cleric of life transforms anyone into the dedicated healer. Of course best classes are druids and sorcerers.
Hope this gives you some insight into it.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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If a party is out dungeon crawling or traveling most of the day, they're probably going to take at least 2 short rests; that's all they need to keep up with other spellcasters. Everyone has to stop and eat some time, and plenty of other classes depend on short rests too.
Getting 24 times the usual duration is a pretty good deal if you ask me.
This is true, but XGtE improved the situation a lot with Improved Pact Weapon and the Hexblade subclass.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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You say this as if it's a fact, but there's no rule that requires this. The DM decides if and when a random encounter is warranted, and it's dubious that there isn't a single location in a dungeon that can be secured for a short rest.
In spite of this opinion, Warlock is not, in fact, dependant on house ruling rest mechanics. It is a strong class beginning to end due to the numerous spells available that do not require the use of spell slots (or even using one spell slot that lasts 24 hours). These features are specifically mentioned in the OP.
On the new topic of rest mechanics. I would give players encounters if they intended to rest for 1 hour or 15 minutes alike. There's no need to complicate rests by dividing them into more than the outlined long and short rests.
On a whole different topic. Sometimes it's possible to convey an idea more clearly with fewer words...
Extended Signature
Playing a warlock - i think it is a good thing to point out your need for rest to the group. If you have someone in your group able to cast catnip - the time goes down a lot. Usually, if the situation isn't time sensitive (and reasonable DMs should in most encounters plan for players to be able to rest unless the story demands otherwise) you should allow classes reliant on those mechanics the downtime with whatever reason ingame necessary. If downtime isn't a thing in your games, you should in general provide some compensation for warlocks imho.
Warlocks work just fine with only 2 spell slots. It rather depends on how you build your character. Considering most of the campaigns you end up playing in end up at level 9-10, you shouldn't run into any hard issues. Imho the warlock is one of the most versatile classes around.
Lots of classes benefit from short rests. Fighter and Monk in particular. Odd is the adventuring party that does not need rest.
Extended Signature
I wonder how lucky you guys are to have groups who just do not rest every single fights. And those who say ressource management... Well... How about your bard giving you only 1 single inspiration per fight just to "manage" ressources. Or that fighter or monk never using their ressources because "management" just saying... Warlock who cast hex at 24 hours and then never cast anything else because only 1 slot left is whack. It also makes you dependant on the one button strategy. Hence why people badly wanted the hex blade. Because eldritch blast build just sucked. Then again being able to smite only two times while pal and rogue does it much more then that.
Contrary to what you guys think... Warlock is always considered lacking in spell slots on numerous sites about min maxing. When it comes to min maxing.. I have yet to see any warlock go full level 20. They all multiclass into more spell slots. This... Is how you effectively see the weakness of classes. The same way i never see a rogue go beyond 11 for reliable talent.
Again for rests... Im not the only one thinking that 1 hour to rest a too long for so little benefits. Were supposed to have 2 per day before long rest. Yeah right... After first nobody has anymore hds. Maybe 1 or 2 left. Its far less of a problem now that my players are level 12 but back up 4 or 5 levels and they were trying long resting every fights. And yes they knew how to manage ressources. But all of my 4 or 5 groups have all said the same thing... Not being able to play your class because of "management" just sucks.
Finishing with this... You as a person at your job... You cant do it if you do not have an hour to rest every breaks ? As far as i am concerned... A 15 minute break is sufficient to me. Also a bard needs an hour to think up new inspirations ? Wow not much of a performer is he ? Same for fighter... Not much of a strategist if he need to rethink how to lounge every hours. That simply makes no senses. The 1 hour only really make sense for healing wounds. That was the point of me saying short rest are too long.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)