Give your employees a 15 minute lunch and you'll Aparently be surprizes by their reaction. Just the same. In normal campaigns my parties take breaks. We take a short break when we are lacking resources. We don't take a break after we encounter a couple of rats or skeletons along the way. Taking a rest after every encounter is madness, and if you need or can even benefit from a rest after these little scuffles, I'm afraid you're doing it wrong.
The idea that most builds multi-class is less an illustration of the classes potential as it is an illustration of the potential in multi-classing. Even the most powerful Wizard I've played with Multiclassed Fighter. Few and far between are players who stay in one class to 20.
The OP is not asking about min-maxing, consider reading his post. He's asking about building a character with a specific goal and style in mind, and asking if Warlock is the best fit for that concept. It is.
- unless short rest are 15 minutes. Hes weak spell wise.
If a party is out dungeon crawling or traveling most of the day, they're probably going to take at least 2 short rests; that's all they need to keep up with other spellcasters. Everyone has to stop and eat some time, and plenty of other classes depend on short rests too.
Warlock needs...
- more spells slots to cast his first and second level spells. Because nobody wanna use a 5th level spell slot for hex alone.
Getting 24 times the usual duration is a pretty good deal if you ask me.
- need more defense if he is a blade pact melee warlock.
This is true, but XGtE improved the situation a lot with Improved Pact Weapon and the Hexblade subclass.
I've found that Armor of Shadows does just fine for defense for my warlock. I've got a Fey-Tome-Lock with Armor of Shadows, Shillelagh via Tome, and good dex works for me. Stat-wise, I basically build such a character like I'd build a Monk. If you want to be the tough front line fighter of the group, you'll need hexblade and either carefully chosen feats or some multiclassing, but that's fine IMO. We're a small group, so I use Armor of Agythis more that I would like, but that's life in a 3 person party, and it has killed a few enemies in the first round of combat, while leaving me barely scratched, so it's pretty cool. I love watching low damage multi-attackers come toward me! Low rolls once caused 30 damage between two enemies, while I only lost 4 HP past the THP, at level 3.
I doubt I'll use Hellish Rebuke, though, as much as I like it on other characters. There are definitely times where I wish I had more slots, but I'm hopeful that I will eventually be able to grab a spell storing magic item to help with that.
Anyway, Hex is awesome once you're getting 8 hours, much less 24. You only use the spell slot for the first fight of the day, as long as you don't lose concentration. Having Hex up while having full spell slots is pretty great. But even without that, my current warlock is running around with Mage Armor, Mage Hand, and Shillelagh up at all times with no spell slots used and no concentration, and I have 4 other cantrips, an extra 1/SR Charm/Fear effect, and with War Caster and 17 AC I don't lose concentration much.
Warlocks are great.
Edit: Also, because Tome is so versatile, I have Spare the Dying, and a Familiar that flies and can't be subject for Opportunity Attacks from flying, which means I can cast Spare the Dying from anywhere on the field, and I've got enough Cantrips that I'm really losing out on anything to get that option, and I've got rituals that other Warlocks can't even get as normal spells, like Identify, and the list will just keep growing as we adventure.
Seriously, the versatility and fun of the warlock is ridiculously good, and I'm not even min/maxing anything. The only benefit I have that isn't the norm is good rolls for stats, but the character isn't changed that much by point buy, I just would lose out on skill stuff in the tertiary stats and I'd lose 1-2 points of AC, and thus have to be a little more careful.
- most invocations only add more spells to his list.
I would change that to "some of the invocations only add more spells to the list"
Being able to detect magic at will, read any language, peer through solid objects, invisibility at will and etc isnt just extra spells. Even though they got limited number of spell slots, the warlock might be the most versatile character class in the game atm. If you build your warlock around utililty instead of firepower, a warlock will be awesome outside combat with its high charisma skills and sweet cantrips and invocations! I really enjoy playing my warlock that way!
In your opinion is warlock bad? Do you think it needs to multiclass, or is only a class that is dipped into multiclassing for other classes. I want to play a tiefling fiend patron, chain pact, that has the invocation that allow him to cast disguise self at will, along with getting the actor feat. My goal is to create a character that can infidelity keep changing his appearance to suit the situation, get people to trust him, or frame others, but is warlock not the right class for this, does warlock get outshone by others
With the right invocations and cantrip choices this shouldnt be a problem as a warlock. You can disguise yourself at will magically with a invocation and as I said in a earlier post, go invisible. Even see through magical darkness (which you yourself can cast) and then blast the target to smithereens with some nifty spells. Really no need to dip into other classes either if you build your character correctly as a warlock.
want me to count how many invocations actually give you a spell that you still have to take a spell slot "of warlock" even. there is a reason why those invocations are barely ever used. the invocations that gives you 1st level spells as cantrips are strong, for a reason. but i thought the invocations that gives you a new spell in your list were using their own 1 shot spell slots. which they do not. to me warlocks would have been better that way.
as for armor of shadows being enough... heres my fey warlock tank. very fun to play ! STR 16, CHA 20, DEX 20, AC 18 (armor of shadows + dex) can use shield with his 4 level 1 spell slots given by Bard which pumps him to 23 AC. Now my CON is like 15 or so, but as he will grow in level i intend to pump him up. he's been using spells to frighten the enemies and save them precious hits. Hes much more fun then any fighters or barb i would do. at that thanks to xanathaars guide, he can also just stand back and help the back row if they need protections.
yeah warlock pacts changes everything, but needing hexblade to do this is bullshit. you just dont if you build that warlock right. my beef was that he couldn't do this with only 2 spell slots... and i would never ever lose a spell slot to do shield. and 18 AC is not much really. not considering i didn't have 18, but 15 back at level 3. now he's level 8, warlock 5 bard 3. and he's fine !
in any cases, no we're not resting every single encounters if they are easy... but honestly if you want challenges... you need to make ressources go down. and honestly... the game is design for you to lose out... but when i see that fighter go 3 fights without rest because hes champion... and i see the cleric only using spell slots and keeping channels for later. and me i have to like separate my spells in 2, because i only have 2 spell slots. and thats like 1 spell per fight... then i need rest... it really puts yourself in perspectives. there is a reason why everybody goes for the invocations that can you spells as cantrips. there is a reason why warlocks go for passive abilities. like boosting eldritch invocations... look at that and you quickly realise that there is a problem, its just that people dodges it by simply not using other invocations. i have yet to see anybody using polymorph, invisibility or even the levitate invocations.
all the options you guys think or say the warlock has.. well... if we can dodge them, we just do. that only shows a problem that everyone are trying to avoid.
not saying warlock suckjs, i'd multiclass in it all the time. that tells you how good it is. but im saying, for him to be good you have either to have shorter short rest or simply multiclass into a full caster class just for the spell slots.
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My biggest gripe with the warlock is that the classic fiendish summoner isn't possible from the core book. I feel like there's a disconnect between the archetype of the warlock, and the execution of the class.
There's a number of issues with the class mechanically, but one can usually just ignore those for a decent class that works well.
We had a fey pact warlock who did what you want to do. One of the most effective characters. You don't really have to excel at fighting if your enemy fight each other.
want me to count how many invocations actually give you a spell that you still have to take a spell slot "of warlock" even. there is a reason why those invocations are barely ever used.
all the options you guys think or say the warlock has.. well... if we can dodge them, we just do. that only shows a problem that everyone are trying to avoid.
not saying warlock suckjs, i'd multiclass in it all the time. that tells you how good it is. but im saying, for him to be good you have either to have shorter short rest or simply multiclass into a full caster class just for the spell slots.
We all know what you're trying to say, we just don't agree with you.
As for the invocations, there are plenty of Invocations that give a 1/day spell that doesn't use a spell slot. There are more of those and the at-will Invocations than the slot using ones. However, those Invocations may not get used in your group, but they certainly do get used. They aren't top choice, but they tend to be spells that a warlock just can't get without multiclassing, and being able to use them sometimes is very strong.
And the at-will stuff, along with the patron stuff, and the max-leveled spell slots, come together to make a very powerful, versatile, character. The only way to build a warlock that isn't versatile is making a Hex-Blade-Lock with a full focus on damage boosting Invocations, and that warlock will kick quite a lot of ass.
To the OP - the Warlock is definitely a class that will do all that you want to do without multiclassing. You are going to have a ton of fun playing this devious, deceptive character!
You're essentially setting yourself up to be the ultimate spymaster between your unlimited disguise self and the invisible imp you can see through at infinite range. You'll be able to learn lots of secrets, particularly if your adventure setting is a large city.
You'll definitely want to speak to your DM about how he or she is going to limit your familiar. For instance, what happens if it's carrying something and you then shut it away in its pocket dimension? If the objects drop to the ground, that will affect how often you'll want to play party healer with potions. If the objects travel with your imp, then you're pretty much the ultimate thief.
Also be careful about the amount of time you're taking with spying out a dungeon or a map - you can really steal a lot of time away from other player's characters when you hog the time like that - be sure to include the rest of your party when you're out mapping an entire dungeon so they don't just get bored silly. An easy way to handle it is to ask how they'd like to plan out ambushes, given your unique view of the battlefield.
Good luck with your Warlock. I think you're going to have a great time playing one.
My experience is that it is very dependent on the style of campaign play. One of the campaigns I am active in, the combat encounters are complex and bordering on deadly every time, and two spell slots are barely enough to get by for a single encounter. The main reason for this, is that the campaign is deliberately magic poor. So wands/scrolls/wondrous items have almost been non-existent, so the only resource available are spells slots. And while short rests are available, doing tricks like hex on a long term concentration aren't viable (darkness is one of the more effective tricks that I use...so yeah.) A dip into one level of cleric solved some very specific problems with two extra 1st level slots (healing word, sanctuary, and protection from Evil and Good plus armor, weapon proficiencies.
Now, the campaign is meant to be hard nitty gritty in style, so this isn't a beef about the class, but the class doesn't have huge sustain during the fights we have had. If you don't have that type of problem/challenge, short resting is probably enough. It's flexibility with invocations are really good, and some of the newer subclasses are really fun. The Role Playing opportunities are really high as well.
I also agree with DM_Chris_Berry on a specific point: knowing the limits on what you can/can't do goes a long way to avoiding frustration and building your character in a way that feels "wrong." Familiars (pact of the chain vs. a regular one you could get with Tome of Shadows) is one example, how far you can push Charm Person or Unseen Servant or the various illusions are all factors. The more creativity the DM permits, your effectiveness and happiness increases.
Sure I would like some adjustments (double the spell slots, allow to switch out a single invocation out after a long rest, and Agonizing Blast/Thirsting Blade being part of the build package, and not an invocation tax), but I could say the same for any class.
Bottom line; there is always a way to make it work and have fun. You have to define the fun.
Thats my point... Look at those invocations that supposedly gives you a 1/day... Youll see they add one single line that defeat that purpose... The fact they still requires your warlock spell slots. They are not free as you imply.
That you disagree with me is fine. That you try to say im wrong as if you were the only one ever having created warlocks is what irks me. That said im not saying you as in you specifically... Im just not wanting to point names at those who did in this thread.
So i'll reiterate...
"I" think the warlock is great and a good multiclass option. But it has its shortcoming. Those to "me" are... You will crave more spell slots faster then you think even with ritual casting and short rest. The invocations are not what they seem to be. And the higher levels like many classes are lacking in features.
Thats what "i" think of the class.
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If the invocations that gave you a spell once a day that uses up a spell slot were the only ones available, then I would tangentially agree with you. However, There are 39 other invocations that work differently. You can easily build several different warlocks that never take even one of those invocations. Also, outside of AL, I have seen GM's house-rule that they do not use up a slot so the problem is far from insurmountable or constitute class nerfing.
- need more defense if he is a blade pact melee warlock.
Blur is the hexblade answer to defense. It is the only melee oriented gish class that has access to it! With Medium Armor and Shield, you won't get hit very often at all.
Blur is the hexblade answer to defense. It is the only melee oriented gish class that has access to it! With Medium Armor and Shield, you won't get hit very often at all.
Blur, Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, Mirror Image. There's a lot of defensive spells. The problem is assuming that you'll have medium armor and shield is that you either need to be human and burn your racial feat on that, or taking Hexblade. And blur, while a nice defense spell, has the small issue of being Concentration, so if you are hit, and you fail a save... or want to cast a spell like Hex or Hold Person....
Never said it wasnt insurmountable... Only said there was things that should be houseruled. You talk about those spells but again, number wise, nobody uses them. Passives on warlocks are that strong.
When it comes to spells its always the same... Blur is concentration and thus clashes with hex. Mirror image and shield are much better options because they do not clash with anything. Concentration spells have alway been troublesome even though necessary.
You guys strickly dodges the problems of the warlock by saying there are options... The problem is those options are often not good and from a min maxers stand point... There is only a few things worth considering. Thats why people always ask for more and why people wanted homebrew so badly.
Again... Does the warlock be a bad class... Not at all... I actually multiclass a lot into it. But fact is... I can never really seem to need more then 6 levels of it.
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Again... Does the warlock be a bad class... Not at all... I actually multiclass a lot into it. But fact is... I can never really seem to need more then 6 levels of it.
Take a look at what Hexblade 14 offers. Might be the best single target tank out there! Curse the target, at level 10 If the target cursed by your Hexblade’s Curse hits you with an attack roll, you can use your reaction to roll a d6. On a 4 or higher, the attack instead misses you, regardless of its roll. That is able to turn a Crit into a miss! Useable as a reaction once per turn. And at level 14 you have unlimited uses of Hexblade's Curse so long as you don't take the HP recovery.
Then again rogue 7 with uncanny dodge and evasion makes you a much better tank then that ability. Not to mention dexterity is already one of your strong stats. Or you could go barb/warlock and accomplish the same thing. You have to remember using reactions is only once per round. So having evasion saves your ass again spells and uncanny dodge can literally be used to reduce the crit damage do just a few points.
If you ask me... You could simply multiclass if you really want to tank with your warlock. That said... Warlocks could go up to 14 for sure.
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Except the feat do not give you expertise nor the sneak attacks... Its just a feat... But best of all, at 3rd level you gain archetypes and archetypes are always worth taking.
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So, Pally, is there a class that you do not see value in multi-classing? While I agree that multi-classing has great potential across the board, I do not see that potential as a shortcoming of any class.
Give your employees a 15 minute lunch and you'll Aparently be surprizes by their reaction. Just the same. In normal campaigns my parties take breaks. We take a short break when we are lacking resources. We don't take a break after we encounter a couple of rats or skeletons along the way. Taking a rest after every encounter is madness, and if you need or can even benefit from a rest after these little scuffles, I'm afraid you're doing it wrong.
The idea that most builds multi-class is less an illustration of the classes potential as it is an illustration of the potential in multi-classing. Even the most powerful Wizard I've played with Multiclassed Fighter. Few and far between are players who stay in one class to 20.
The OP is not asking about min-maxing, consider reading his post. He's asking about building a character with a specific goal and style in mind, and asking if Warlock is the best fit for that concept. It is.
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Seriously, the versatility and fun of the warlock is ridiculously good, and I'm not even min/maxing anything. The only benefit I have that isn't the norm is good rolls for stats, but the character isn't changed that much by point buy, I just would lose out on skill stuff in the tertiary stats and I'd lose 1-2 points of AC, and thus have to be a little more careful.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
want me to count how many invocations actually give you a spell that you still have to take a spell slot "of warlock" even. there is a reason why those invocations are barely ever used.
the invocations that gives you 1st level spells as cantrips are strong, for a reason. but i thought the invocations that gives you a new spell in your list were using their own 1 shot spell slots. which they do not. to me warlocks would have been better that way.
as for armor of shadows being enough...
heres my fey warlock tank. very fun to play !
STR 16, CHA 20, DEX 20, AC 18 (armor of shadows + dex) can use shield with his 4 level 1 spell slots given by Bard which pumps him to 23 AC.
Now my CON is like 15 or so, but as he will grow in level i intend to pump him up. he's been using spells to frighten the enemies and save them precious hits.
Hes much more fun then any fighters or barb i would do. at that thanks to xanathaars guide, he can also just stand back and help the back row if they need protections.
yeah warlock pacts changes everything, but needing hexblade to do this is bullshit. you just dont if you build that warlock right.
my beef was that he couldn't do this with only 2 spell slots... and i would never ever lose a spell slot to do shield. and 18 AC is not much really. not considering i didn't have 18, but 15 back at level 3. now he's level 8, warlock 5 bard 3. and he's fine !
in any cases, no we're not resting every single encounters if they are easy... but honestly if you want challenges... you need to make ressources go down. and honestly... the game is design for you to lose out... but when i see that fighter go 3 fights without rest because hes champion... and i see the cleric only using spell slots and keeping channels for later. and me i have to like separate my spells in 2, because i only have 2 spell slots. and thats like 1 spell per fight... then i need rest... it really puts yourself in perspectives. there is a reason why everybody goes for the invocations that can you spells as cantrips. there is a reason why warlocks go for passive abilities. like boosting eldritch invocations... look at that and you quickly realise that there is a problem, its just that people dodges it by simply not using other invocations. i have yet to see anybody using polymorph, invisibility or even the levitate invocations.
all the options you guys think or say the warlock has.. well... if we can dodge them, we just do.
that only shows a problem that everyone are trying to avoid.
not saying warlock suckjs, i'd multiclass in it all the time. that tells you how good it is. but im saying, for him to be good you have either to have shorter short rest or simply multiclass into a full caster class just for the spell slots.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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My biggest gripe with the warlock is that the classic fiendish summoner isn't possible from the core book. I feel like there's a disconnect between the archetype of the warlock, and the execution of the class.
There's a number of issues with the class mechanically, but one can usually just ignore those for a decent class that works well.
We had a fey pact warlock who did what you want to do. One of the most effective characters. You don't really have to excel at fighting if your enemy fight each other.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
To the OP - the Warlock is definitely a class that will do all that you want to do without multiclassing. You are going to have a ton of fun playing this devious, deceptive character!
You're essentially setting yourself up to be the ultimate spymaster between your unlimited disguise self and the invisible imp you can see through at infinite range. You'll be able to learn lots of secrets, particularly if your adventure setting is a large city.
You'll definitely want to speak to your DM about how he or she is going to limit your familiar. For instance, what happens if it's carrying something and you then shut it away in its pocket dimension? If the objects drop to the ground, that will affect how often you'll want to play party healer with potions. If the objects travel with your imp, then you're pretty much the ultimate thief.
Also be careful about the amount of time you're taking with spying out a dungeon or a map - you can really steal a lot of time away from other player's characters when you hog the time like that - be sure to include the rest of your party when you're out mapping an entire dungeon so they don't just get bored silly. An easy way to handle it is to ask how they'd like to plan out ambushes, given your unique view of the battlefield.
Good luck with your Warlock. I think you're going to have a great time playing one.
My experience is that it is very dependent on the style of campaign play. One of the campaigns I am active in, the combat encounters are complex and bordering on deadly every time, and two spell slots are barely enough to get by for a single encounter. The main reason for this, is that the campaign is deliberately magic poor. So wands/scrolls/wondrous items have almost been non-existent, so the only resource available are spells slots. And while short rests are available, doing tricks like hex on a long term concentration aren't viable (darkness is one of the more effective tricks that I use...so yeah.) A dip into one level of cleric solved some very specific problems with two extra 1st level slots (healing word, sanctuary, and protection from Evil and Good plus armor, weapon proficiencies.
Now, the campaign is meant to be hard nitty gritty in style, so this isn't a beef about the class, but the class doesn't have huge sustain during the fights we have had. If you don't have that type of problem/challenge, short resting is probably enough. It's flexibility with invocations are really good, and some of the newer subclasses are really fun. The Role Playing opportunities are really high as well.
I also agree with DM_Chris_Berry on a specific point: knowing the limits on what you can/can't do goes a long way to avoiding frustration and building your character in a way that feels "wrong." Familiars (pact of the chain vs. a regular one you could get with Tome of Shadows) is one example, how far you can push Charm Person or Unseen Servant or the various illusions are all factors. The more creativity the DM permits, your effectiveness and happiness increases.
Sure I would like some adjustments (double the spell slots, allow to switch out a single invocation out after a long rest, and Agonizing Blast/Thirsting Blade being part of the build package, and not an invocation tax), but I could say the same for any class.
Bottom line; there is always a way to make it work and have fun. You have to define the fun.
Thats my point... Look at those invocations that supposedly gives you a 1/day... Youll see they add one single line that defeat that purpose... The fact they still requires your warlock spell slots. They are not free as you imply.
That you disagree with me is fine. That you try to say im wrong as if you were the only one ever having created warlocks is what irks me. That said im not saying you as in you specifically... Im just not wanting to point names at those who did in this thread.
So i'll reiterate...
"I" think the warlock is great and a good multiclass option. But it has its shortcoming. Those to "me" are... You will crave more spell slots faster then you think even with ritual casting and short rest. The invocations are not what they seem to be. And the higher levels like many classes are lacking in features.
Thats what "i" think of the class.
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If the invocations that gave you a spell once a day that uses up a spell slot were the only ones available, then I would tangentially agree with you. However, There are 39 other invocations that work differently. You can easily build several different warlocks that never take even one of those invocations. Also, outside of AL, I have seen GM's house-rule that they do not use up a slot so the problem is far from insurmountable or constitute class nerfing.
Never said it wasnt insurmountable... Only said there was things that should be houseruled. You talk about those spells but again, number wise, nobody uses them. Passives on warlocks are that strong.
When it comes to spells its always the same... Blur is concentration and thus clashes with hex. Mirror image and shield are much better options because they do not clash with anything. Concentration spells have alway been troublesome even though necessary.
You guys strickly dodges the problems of the warlock by saying there are options... The problem is those options are often not good and from a min maxers stand point... There is only a few things worth considering. Thats why people always ask for more and why people wanted homebrew so badly.
Again... Does the warlock be a bad class... Not at all... I actually multiclass a lot into it. But fact is... I can never really seem to need more then 6 levels of it.
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Then again rogue 7 with uncanny dodge and evasion makes you a much better tank then that ability. Not to mention dexterity is already one of your strong stats. Or you could go barb/warlock and accomplish the same thing. You have to remember using reactions is only once per round. So having evasion saves your ass again spells and uncanny dodge can literally be used to reduce the crit damage do just a few points.
If you ask me... You could simply multiclass if you really want to tank with your warlock. That said... Warlocks could go up to 14 for sure.
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Or you could take the Defensive Duelist feat and not halt all Warlock progress for 1/3 of your adventuring career.
Except the feat do not give you expertise nor the sneak attacks... Its just a feat... But best of all, at 3rd level you gain archetypes and archetypes are always worth taking.
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So, Pally, is there a class that you do not see value in multi-classing? While I agree that multi-classing has great potential across the board, I do not see that potential as a shortcoming of any class.
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