May be limited but in a one on one fight sorcerer tops out with the ability to counter and the wizard can't. Throw in empowered meaning can reroll aswell and if you go draconic you have more hp and higher ac
May be limited but in a one on one fight sorcerer tops out with the ability to counter and the wizard can't. Throw in empowered meaning can reroll aswell and if you go draconic you have more hp and higher ac
How can a sorcerer counterspell anymore than a wizard? The wizard will likely go first due to initiative bonus, polymorph's the sorc, the sorc counters, the wizard counters the counter, and forces a failed save on the polymorph. Good game.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I'd argue any class could win. It would come down to dice rolls though. Initiative would also play a huge factor. The wizard would likely win a lot more fights than it would lose though. With the exception of the Monk. The Open Hand Monk with the Mage Slayer Feat would be especially daunting for any wizard. The way I'm reading Quivering palm it would go through Invulnerability because it reduces hit points to zero instead of dealing damage. That might not be the correct interpretation though. Even if I'm wrong, they still get stunning strike, evasion, Diamond Soul, and Tranquility. Combine that with Mage Slayer, the wizard's spells would have a verydifficult time landing on the Monk.
Lets look at what would need to happen to target the Monk with a spell.
When targeting the Monk with a spell, the wizard would first have to make a wisdom saving throw which the wizard is proficient in due to Tranquility. Lets say the wizard succeeds and casts a spell.
The Monk would get advantage on the subsequent saving throw because of Mage Slayer and is proficient in every saving throw do to Diamond Soul. (They would almost certainly be right next to each other every round with the possible exception of the first depending on initiative order). Lets say the monk fails those throws.
Now, the monk uses the second part of the Diamond soul feature to spend 1 ki point to roll the save again.
That is a total of four rolls that have to go the wizards way just to target the Monk with a spell. It doesn't get a whole lot better if the wizard tries an area spell.
The monk would then get a reactionary attack against the wizard. Then the monk takes the attack action on its turn. Each hit, it tries stunning strike. Wizard will pass some of these saves, but certainly not all of them. The monk could make the Wizard do up to four saving throws against stunning strike in a turn if all the melee attacks hit.
Sure, there are all sorts of things the wizard could do ahead of time to even the odds a little though. Maybe a simulacrum of some powerful beasty or a contingency spell cast with a trigger of being stunned. Reverse Gravity spell would also come in handy because the first part of it doesn't have a saving throw but if that's spell, the monk could just stunning strike on the reaction attack. I'm sure other things like wish or flight or 100s of undead would make it hard or impossible for the monk, but I think outside of that, monk wins most of these hypothetical fights.
I'd argue any class could win. It would come down to dice rolls though. Initiative would also play a huge factor. The wizard would likely win a lot more fights than it would lose though. With the exception of the Monk.
I could be wrong, but I wouldn't even cast Invulnerability against melee enemies, just a force cage would do.
I'd argue any class could win. It would come down to dice rolls though. Initiative would also play a huge factor. The wizard would likely win a lot more fights than it would lose though. With the exception of the Monk.
I could be wrong, but I wouldn't even cast Invulnerability against melee enemies, just a force cage would do.
I'd argue any class could win. It would come down to dice rolls though. Initiative would also play a huge factor. The wizard would likely win a lot more fights than it would lose though. With the exception of the Monk.
I could be wrong, but I wouldn't even cast Invulnerability against melee enemies, just a force cage would do.
That would just pause the fight for an hour.
But can a monk Survive 600 Firebolts in that hour? or any combinations of spells while they can't get out of forcecage because they can't teleport?
I'd argue any class could win. It would come down to dice rolls though. Initiative would also play a huge factor. The wizard would likely win a lot more fights than it would lose though. With the exception of the Monk.
I could be wrong, but I wouldn't even cast Invulnerability against melee enemies, just a force cage would do.
That would just pause the fight for an hour.
But can a monk Survive 600 Firebolts in that hour? or any combinations of spells while they can't get out of forcecage because they can't teleport?
Oooh you got me. I forgot about the prison in the shape of a cage that lets spells pass through. Ok! Our monk is a Shadar-kai and can use the blessing of the raven queen to possibly get out once. It's a charisma saving throw, which the Monk is proficient in, and can roll the save again using a Ki point. Doing a little quick math, that means the Monk will pass this check roughly 2 out of 3 times. He'll still have his crazy movement so he'll be able to bonus action dash which would get the monk out of range for another forcecage. If that doesn't work, the Monk uses Empty body to take his spirit body to the Astral plane where he then takes a portal to whatever plane which would bring the body to the other end of the portal. This seems like it might be a way to bypass the save but who knows. If this doesn't, the monk again passes this check 2 out of 3 times. The monk can attempt this twice assuming he has all his ki points. All this combines to 3 attempts at getting out of the forcecage, which at least one of these attempts will succeed 95% of the time. That's ~66% of the time when the wizard goes first, the monk can get out for the fight to continue. Of the 33% of the time when the monk doesn't get out, 87% of the time the fight ends in a tie with the two on different planes of existence. All this assumes the Wizard goes first. (All this math assumes no magic items and a 0 charisma modifier for the Monk and 19 DC for the wizard).
If the wizard goes second, he may never get an action. Figure the wizard gets a shield spell and has mage armor with 13 dex while the monk has a +10 hit bonus and stun DC 19, that is a 50% chance to hit thus 33% chance of a stun. If the monk uses Furry of blows to get 4 attacks its 80% that at least one of them would will be a stun. After that first stun, the stun percent increases dramatically due to getting advantage and the wizard unable to cast shield. The vast majority of the time, if the monk goes first the wizard would be down in 4-6 rounds having never taken an action.
Without actually doing any math, I'd estimate the monk would win more than he loses when the wizard opens with forcecage. When the monk goes first, I'd estimate that the monk would win 90% of the fights. That's just a guess though and who knows what other crazy tricks or spells the wizard could use.
only if they have better non-magic abilities than the wizard and the wizard didn't have counterspell.
Unless they changed it you can counter a counter and even without that counter has plenty of limitations. Virtually every class in the game is better in a anti magic field than a wizard is. Maybe only marginally, so your rolls will be the difference but generally anti-magic hits the wizard the hardest.
Without actually doing any math, I'd estimate the monk would win more than he loses when the wizard opens with forcecage. When the monk goes first, I'd estimate that the monk would win 90% of the fights. That's just a guess though and who knows what other crazy tricks or spells the wizard could use.
How does the monk beat the Divination wizard who goes first with Portent, beats your sanctuary with Portent, and forces you to fail your save against Polymorph with Portent before Power Word Killing you because your new form has less than 100 hp?
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Without actually doing any math, I'd estimate the monk would win more than he loses when the wizard opens with forcecage. When the monk goes first, I'd estimate that the monk would win 90% of the fights. That's just a guess though and who knows what other crazy tricks or spells the wizard could use.
How does the monk beat the Divination wizard who goes first with Portent, beats your sanctuary with Portent, and forces you to fail your save against Polymorph with Portent before Power Word Killing you because your new form has less than 100 hp?
But how would the wizard win if the Monk only rolls nat 20s?!?! Wait, that's highly unlikely. Similarly, you don't get to pick your portent rolls. But lets assume you have one that is high enough to win initiative , then two that are low enough to fail the save DCs. The Monk STILL can use 1 Ki point to roll that Wisdom save again that he will pass 65% of the time. Which means you win this fight using this method 35% of the time when you get the perfect portent rolls. After that, advantage monk as previously explained. How often will this work the way you explained? When you roll the portent rolls, you will get one roll higher than the average for initiative and two rolls low enough to force failing saving throws ~18% of the time. Factoring in the times that the Monk Fails his Diamond Soul extra saving throw roll, we're looking at 6.4%. That's a win chance of 6.4% using this method.
I did the math, the monk can stun lock the wizard for 5 rounds 60% of the time and its probably enough to kill the wizard. Even if one of those rounds he is unable to get a stun off, he's standing right next to the wizard which is doom for the wizard. Option 1, try to cast a spell and almost certainly fail and possibly get stunned due to Mage Slayer feat. Option 2, move away to try to cast a spell and take an Opportunity attack with the possibly of getting stunned, then cast the spell which the monk will likely pass his save. Option 3, take the disengage action and just die later because monk will catch you and start the stunning over. Option 2 is the best option but I still don't like the odds do to how good the monk is at resisting spells.
I'm still saying even if this is your plan, the monk will win more than he loses and I don't think it will be close. Your best bet as the wizard would be if you can't pull it off perfect but can still win initiative, cast gate and run away forcing a draw. Then come back tomorrow and try again. I guess eventually you'll get your perfect portent rolls, but even then your chance to win is probably in the low 40% range.
Still confused with the monk idea beating a wizard, so you are saying it's the race Shadar-kai and combination of monk that can beat the wizard.
But a few points, isn't CHA a dump stat for a Monk?
Also is the Wizard going to just sit there and do nothing while letting the monk do all these actions you mentioned?
Blessing of the the Raven Queen is only once per long rest, so if the divination wizard or chronugry wizard makes the monk fail the escape instead of using it for feeble mind or polymorph. They will be no other way to escape and spend the next hour getting sapped?
Even if the monk escape, this will benefit the wizard as they would just teleport away and do all the prep work which is what really makes the wizard powerful.
This is even if the idea of using forcecage or invulnerbility. Which the wizard will most likely not need to use.
But how would the wizard win if the Monk only rolls nat 20s?!?! Wait, that's highly unlikely. Similarly, you don't get to pick your portent rolls. But lets assume you have one that is high enough to win initiative , then two that are low enough to fail the save DCs. The Monk STILL can use 1 Ki point to roll that Wisdom save again that he will pass 65% of the time. Which means you win this fight using this method 35% of the time when you get the perfect portent rolls. After that, advantage monk as previously explained. How often will this work the way you explained? When you roll the portent rolls, you will get one roll higher than the average for initiative and two rolls low enough to force failing saving throws ~18% of the time. Factoring in the times that the Monk Fails his Diamond Soul extra saving throw roll, we're looking at 6.4%. That's a win chance of 6.4% using this method.
I did the math, the monk can stun lock the wizard for 5 rounds 60% of the time and its probably enough to kill the wizard. Even if one of those rounds he is unable to get a stun off, he's standing right next to the wizard which is doom for the wizard. Option 1, try to cast a spell and almost certainly fail and possibly get stunned due to Mage Slayer feat. Option 2, move away to try to cast a spell and take an Opportunity attack with the possibly of getting stunned, then cast the spell which the monk will likely pass his save. Option 3, take the disengage action and just die later because monk will catch you and start the stunning over. Option 2 is the best option but I still don't like the odds do to how good the monk is at resisting spells.
I'm still saying even if this is your plan, the monk will win more than he loses and I don't think it will be close. Your best bet as the wizard would be if you can't pull it off perfect but can still win initiative, cast gate and run away forcing a draw. Then come back tomorrow and try again. I guess eventually you'll get your perfect portent rolls, but even then your chance to win is probably in the low 40% range.
Ahh yes, Diamond Soul, very good feature I had forgotten about since I don't play a high level monk. Good point. So how does a monk counters wizard who wins initiative with a Portent or chronurgy and the flies up out of reach?
Oooh you got me. I forgot about the prison in the shape of a cage that lets spells pass through. Ok! Our monk is a Shadar-kai and can use the blessing of the raven queen to possibly get out once. It's a charisma saving throw, which the Monk is proficient in, and can roll the save again using a Ki point. Doing a little quick math, that means the Monk will pass this check roughly 2 out of 3 times. He'll still have his crazy movement so he'll be able to bonus action dash which would get the monk out of range for another forcecage. If that doesn't work, the Monk uses Empty body to take his spirit body to the Astral plane
That last bit is a long shot, especially since it takes an hour to cast.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Ha! I missed that part. Oh well. That does even things out although I think the shadat-kai monk still wins more than he loses against any wizard that isn't divination.
But how would the wizard win if the Monk only rolls nat 20s?!?! Wait, that's highly unlikely. Similarly, you don't get to pick your portent rolls. But lets assume you have one that is high enough to win initiative , then two that are low enough to fail the save DCs. The Monk STILL can use 1 Ki point to roll that Wisdom save again that he will pass 65% of the time. Which means you win this fight using this method 35% of the time when you get the perfect portent rolls. After that, advantage monk as previously explained. How often will this work the way you explained? When you roll the portent rolls, you will get one roll higher than the average for initiative and two rolls low enough to force failing saving throws ~18% of the time. Factoring in the times that the Monk Fails his Diamond Soul extra saving throw roll, we're looking at 6.4%. That's a win chance of 6.4% using this method.
I did the math, the monk can stun lock the wizard for 5 rounds 60% of the time and its probably enough to kill the wizard. Even if one of those rounds he is unable to get a stun off, he's standing right next to the wizard which is doom for the wizard. Option 1, try to cast a spell and almost certainly fail and possibly get stunned due to Mage Slayer feat. Option 2, move away to try to cast a spell and take an Opportunity attack with the possibly of getting stunned, then cast the spell which the monk will likely pass his save. Option 3, take the disengage action and just die later because monk will catch you and start the stunning over. Option 2 is the best option but I still don't like the odds do to how good the monk is at resisting spells.
I'm still saying even if this is your plan, the monk will win more than he loses and I don't think it will be close. Your best bet as the wizard would be if you can't pull it off perfect but can still win initiative, cast gate and run away forcing a draw. Then come back tomorrow and try again. I guess eventually you'll get your perfect portent rolls, but even then your chance to win is probably in the low 40% range.
Ahh yes, Diamond Soul, very good feature I had forgotten about since I don't play a high level monk. Good point. So how does a monk counters wizard who wins initiative with a Portent or chronurgy and the flies up out of reach?
He runs away!
I guess my main thought is there are a ton of factors. How far away are the two when the fight starts? Who goes first? Where are they? Who initiates the fight? Does the monk sneak in and start attacking the wizard right after he wakes up from a long rest? Does the wizard see the monk skipping on the road and decide to start flying before raining destruction? Or does the wizard raise an army of undead before setting off to kill the monk? Simulacrum? summon a dragon? What about Planar Binding a bunch of elementals?
The question was, "Can anything beat a 20 wizard?" Yes! Also, any number of monsters could.
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1. Yes, Abjuration is good in fights against casters, but not the best. Chronurgist is the best in any fight, IMHO.
2. Tiamat could probably beat any wizard.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
May be limited but in a one on one fight sorcerer tops out with the ability to counter and the wizard can't. Throw in empowered meaning can reroll aswell and if you go draconic you have more hp and higher ac
How can a sorcerer counterspell anymore than a wizard? The wizard will likely go first due to initiative bonus, polymorph's the sorc, the sorc counters, the wizard counters the counter, and forces a failed save on the polymorph. Good game.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Sorcerer can subtle spell making countering it impossible.
And I don't know about you but if I'm building a draconic sorc my dex will be maxed along with charisma and alert
I'd argue any class could win. It would come down to dice rolls though. Initiative would also play a huge factor. The wizard would likely win a lot more fights than it would lose though. With the exception of the Monk. The Open Hand Monk with the Mage Slayer Feat would be especially daunting for any wizard. The way I'm reading Quivering palm it would go through Invulnerability because it reduces hit points to zero instead of dealing damage. That might not be the correct interpretation though. Even if I'm wrong, they still get stunning strike, evasion, Diamond Soul, and Tranquility. Combine that with Mage Slayer, the wizard's spells would have a very difficult time landing on the Monk.
Lets look at what would need to happen to target the Monk with a spell.
That is a total of four rolls that have to go the wizards way just to target the Monk with a spell. It doesn't get a whole lot better if the wizard tries an area spell.
The monk would then get a reactionary attack against the wizard. Then the monk takes the attack action on its turn. Each hit, it tries stunning strike. Wizard will pass some of these saves, but certainly not all of them. The monk could make the Wizard do up to four saving throws against stunning strike in a turn if all the melee attacks hit.
Sure, there are all sorts of things the wizard could do ahead of time to even the odds a little though. Maybe a simulacrum of some powerful beasty or a contingency spell cast with a trigger of being stunned. Reverse Gravity spell would also come in handy because the first part of it doesn't have a saving throw but if that's spell, the monk could just stunning strike on the reaction attack. I'm sure other things like wish or flight or 100s of undead would make it hard or impossible for the monk, but I think outside of that, monk wins most of these hypothetical fights.
I'd say anyone with antimagic on their spell list could.
only if they have better non-magic abilities than the wizard and the wizard didn't have counterspell.
Beardy druid.
Very beardy druid. With a cap.
I could be wrong, but I wouldn't even cast Invulnerability against melee enemies, just a force cage would do.
That would just pause the fight for an hour.
But can a monk Survive 600 Firebolts in that hour? or any combinations of spells while they can't get out of forcecage because they can't teleport?
Oooh you got me. I forgot about the prison in the shape of a cage that lets spells pass through. Ok! Our monk is a Shadar-kai and can use the blessing of the raven queen to possibly get out once. It's a charisma saving throw, which the Monk is proficient in, and can roll the save again using a Ki point. Doing a little quick math, that means the Monk will pass this check roughly 2 out of 3 times. He'll still have his crazy movement so he'll be able to bonus action dash which would get the monk out of range for another forcecage. If that doesn't work, the Monk uses Empty body to take his spirit body to the Astral plane where he then takes a portal to whatever plane which would bring the body to the other end of the portal. This seems like it might be a way to bypass the save but who knows. If this doesn't, the monk again passes this check 2 out of 3 times. The monk can attempt this twice assuming he has all his ki points. All this combines to 3 attempts at getting out of the forcecage, which at least one of these attempts will succeed 95% of the time. That's ~66% of the time when the wizard goes first, the monk can get out for the fight to continue. Of the 33% of the time when the monk doesn't get out, 87% of the time the fight ends in a tie with the two on different planes of existence. All this assumes the Wizard goes first. (All this math assumes no magic items and a 0 charisma modifier for the Monk and 19 DC for the wizard).
If the wizard goes second, he may never get an action. Figure the wizard gets a shield spell and has mage armor with 13 dex while the monk has a +10 hit bonus and stun DC 19, that is a 50% chance to hit thus 33% chance of a stun. If the monk uses Furry of blows to get 4 attacks its 80% that at least one of them would will be a stun. After that first stun, the stun percent increases dramatically due to getting advantage and the wizard unable to cast shield. The vast majority of the time, if the monk goes first the wizard would be down in 4-6 rounds having never taken an action.
Without actually doing any math, I'd estimate the monk would win more than he loses when the wizard opens with forcecage. When the monk goes first, I'd estimate that the monk would win 90% of the fights. That's just a guess though and who knows what other crazy tricks or spells the wizard could use.
Unless they changed it you can counter a counter and even without that counter has plenty of limitations. Virtually every class in the game is better in a anti magic field than a wizard is. Maybe only marginally, so your rolls will be the difference but generally anti-magic hits the wizard the hardest.
Or maybe a monk with grappler feat that restrains a wizard until it dies of starvation.
How does the monk beat the Divination wizard who goes first with Portent, beats your sanctuary with Portent, and forces you to fail your save against Polymorph with Portent before Power Word Killing you because your new form has less than 100 hp?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
But how would the wizard win if the Monk only rolls nat 20s?!?! Wait, that's highly unlikely. Similarly, you don't get to pick your portent rolls. But lets assume you have one that is high enough to win initiative , then two that are low enough to fail the save DCs. The Monk STILL can use 1 Ki point to roll that Wisdom save again that he will pass 65% of the time. Which means you win this fight using this method 35% of the time when you get the perfect portent rolls. After that, advantage monk as previously explained. How often will this work the way you explained? When you roll the portent rolls, you will get one roll higher than the average for initiative and two rolls low enough to force failing saving throws ~18% of the time. Factoring in the times that the Monk Fails his Diamond Soul extra saving throw roll, we're looking at 6.4%. That's a win chance of 6.4% using this method.
I did the math, the monk can stun lock the wizard for 5 rounds 60% of the time and its probably enough to kill the wizard. Even if one of those rounds he is unable to get a stun off, he's standing right next to the wizard which is doom for the wizard. Option 1, try to cast a spell and almost certainly fail and possibly get stunned due to Mage Slayer feat. Option 2, move away to try to cast a spell and take an Opportunity attack with the possibly of getting stunned, then cast the spell which the monk will likely pass his save. Option 3, take the disengage action and just die later because monk will catch you and start the stunning over. Option 2 is the best option but I still don't like the odds do to how good the monk is at resisting spells.
I'm still saying even if this is your plan, the monk will win more than he loses and I don't think it will be close. Your best bet as the wizard would be if you can't pull it off perfect but can still win initiative, cast gate and run away forcing a draw. Then come back tomorrow and try again. I guess eventually you'll get your perfect portent rolls, but even then your chance to win is probably in the low 40% range.
Still confused with the monk idea beating a wizard, so you are saying it's the race Shadar-kai and combination of monk that can beat the wizard.
But a few points, isn't CHA a dump stat for a Monk?
Also is the Wizard going to just sit there and do nothing while letting the monk do all these actions you mentioned?
Blessing of the the Raven Queen is only once per long rest, so if the divination wizard or chronugry wizard makes the monk fail the escape instead of using it for feeble mind or polymorph. They will be no other way to escape and spend the next hour getting sapped?
Even if the monk escape, this will benefit the wizard as they would just teleport away and do all the prep work which is what really makes the wizard powerful.
This is even if the idea of using forcecage or invulnerbility. Which the wizard will most likely not need to use.
Ahh yes, Diamond Soul, very good feature I had forgotten about since I don't play a high level monk. Good point. So how does a monk counters wizard who wins initiative with a Portent or chronurgy and the flies up out of reach?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
That last bit is a long shot, especially since it takes an hour to cast.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Ha! I missed that part. Oh well. That does even things out although I think the shadat-kai monk still wins more than he loses against any wizard that isn't divination.
He runs away!
I guess my main thought is there are a ton of factors. How far away are the two when the fight starts? Who goes first? Where are they? Who initiates the fight? Does the monk sneak in and start attacking the wizard right after he wakes up from a long rest? Does the wizard see the monk skipping on the road and decide to start flying before raining destruction? Or does the wizard raise an army of undead before setting off to kill the monk? Simulacrum? summon a dragon? What about Planar Binding a bunch of elementals?
The question was, "Can anything beat a 20 wizard?" Yes! Also, any number of monsters could.