Maybe each character would have a budget for items? Say about 50,000 GP? That would allow martial classes to get magic items and magical classes to get spell components.
I don't know. I am strongly against magic items, but a lot of wizard spells need material components.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
But how would the wizard win if the Monk only rolls nat 20s?!?! Wait, that's highly unlikely. Similarly, you don't get to pick your portent rolls. But lets assume you have one that is high enough to win initiative , then two that are low enough to fail the save DCs. The Monk STILL can use 1 Ki point to roll that Wisdom save again that he will pass 65% of the time. Which means you win this fight using this method 35% of the time when you get the perfect portent rolls. After that, advantage monk as previously explained. How often will this work the way you explained? When you roll the portent rolls, you will get one roll higher than the average for initiative and two rolls low enough to force failing saving throws ~18% of the time. Factoring in the times that the Monk Fails his Diamond Soul extra saving throw roll, we're looking at 6.4%. That's a win chance of 6.4% using this method.
I did the math, the monk can stun lock the wizard for 5 rounds 60% of the time and its probably enough to kill the wizard. Even if one of those rounds he is unable to get a stun off, he's standing right next to the wizard which is doom for the wizard. Option 1, try to cast a spell and almost certainly fail and possibly get stunned due to Mage Slayer feat. Option 2, move away to try to cast a spell and take an Opportunity attack with the possibly of getting stunned, then cast the spell which the monk will likely pass his save. Option 3, take the disengage action and just die later because monk will catch you and start the stunning over. Option 2 is the best option but I still don't like the odds do to how good the monk is at resisting spells.
I'm still saying even if this is your plan, the monk will win more than he loses and I don't think it will be close. Your best bet as the wizard would be if you can't pull it off perfect but can still win initiative, cast gate and run away forcing a draw. Then come back tomorrow and try again. I guess eventually you'll get your perfect portent rolls, but even then your chance to win is probably in the low 40% range.
Ahh yes, Diamond Soul, very good feature I had forgotten about since I don't play a high level monk. Good point. So how does a monk counters wizard who wins initiative with a Portent or chronurgy and the flies up out of reach?
He runs away!
I guess my main thought is there are a ton of factors. How far away are the two when the fight starts? Who goes first? Where are they? Who initiates the fight? Does the monk sneak in and start attacking the wizard right after he wakes up from a long rest? Does the wizard see the monk skipping on the road and decide to start flying before raining destruction? Or does the wizard raise an army of undead before setting off to kill the monk? Simulacrum? summon a dragon? What about Planar Binding a bunch of elementals?
The question was, "Can anything beat a 20 wizard?" Yes! Also, any number of monsters could.
Any of "Can class X beat class Y?" threads are irrational.
The answer is "yes." Any class can beat any other class.
The assumption that they start off on an open plane, so many feat away from each other with just the two of them present and both of them fresh from a long rest and both know that they are in a fight begs the question "why?"
Who made up that rule and why?
Because it greatly benefits certain classes over others.
You might was well be asking "can class X beat class Y if we tie both class Y's arms behind them, gag them, blindfold them, and take all their gear away?"
Any of "Can class X beat class Y?" threads are irrational.
The answer is "yes." Any class can beat any other class.
The assumption that they start off on an open plane, so many feat away from each other with just the two of them present and both of them fresh from a long rest and both know that they are in a fight begs the question "why?"
Who made up that rule and why?
Because it greatly benefits certain classes over others.
You might was well be asking "can class X beat class Y if we tie both class Y's arms behind them, gag them, blindfold them, and take all their gear away?"
Why? Why not.
This isn't a perfect way of testing combat power. Not at all. But it allows you to develop an understanding of what is powerful in combat, what works, what doesn't. You can get some very interesting ideas from this thread. Brewskys perpetually dodging near infinite life fighter, for example, is one of the most interesting builds I have seen in a while. It is certainly built for a niche, but interesting nonetheless.
There isn't anything wrong with these threads existing.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
it doesn't really give you an idea of what is powerful in combat unless you're stuck playing the kinds of DnD combats we all played way back in junior high school.
If this kind of discussion is fun for you, then have the discussion. I didn't say no one can participate in this thread. It just doesn't tell you anything about which class is the most powerful.
It actually encourages reductionistic thinking. In reality, the assassin isn't likely to face off against the wizard in a big blank room. He's going to be serving the wizard a poisoned breakfast before the wizard even gets to the big, blank room.
That's fair. However, the purpose of this thread is not to find the most powerful class in every situation. It is to find the best class in the single situation proposed. The situation that we propose isn't really going to ever happen in a normal game.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Honestly, the game should not be called Dungeons and Dragons. There is absolutely ZERO class balance. The game should be called Wizards and Weenies. Because if you are not a Wizard...
Honestly, the game should not be called Dungeons and Dragons. There is absolutely ZERO class balance. The game should be called Wizards and Weenies. Because if you are not a Wizard...
It's PvE not PvP. There are many, many, monsters that can deal with wizards - being specifically designed to. Including some single monsters that could wipe the floor effortlessly against Wizards due to being able to prevent spellcasting.
Classes are not meant to be pitted against each other and never were. That was not the point of D&D.
But there are builds that can beat level 20 wizards. So you position on this subject is little more than unfounded bias.
I never referred to PvP. I referred to class rankings to determine "which class is the most valuable and powerful within a party." There are tons of such rankings out there, so don't take my word for it...look for yourself and see what you see. Yep, you will find that it is definitely the Wizard, the class that is (by far) the highest ranking class in any such analysis. This is NOT my unfounded bias, it is the consensus of the community. Refer to any class rankings analysis that you can find, and Wizard will almost always be the highest ranked class.
So you are correct that certain monsters can defeat a Wizard, but that is true of any class. But Wizard is still (most often) the winner in any such contest. Which flies in the face of WotC's expressed goal of making all the classes of equal importance to a party in party play. So...I don't like that, but I don't dispute it. I stand by Wizards and Weenies...a sadly accurate description of the game.
Get a friend and tell him you are going wizard and he can select any other level 20 single class but wizard. No magic items for either of you. Battle 5 times...if the wizard wins 4 of the 5 times, you have your answer and your friend can try with another class. Let us know how it goes. You both select classic (non variant) human.
Well sure...but we are not looking for PvP here. We are looking for which class (if any) can match the Wizard's value to a party in regular play. Or will the Wizard always outshine all the other player characters? Few people play at 20th level, but I think that after 10th level or so, the Wizard is untouchable in that regard. Just ask anyone who plays a martial character in a party with a wizard.
Shining alongside the wizard: Sorcerer and Druid shine at higher levels. Someone mentioned 20th level divine intervention for clerics...and the peace cleric's expansive bond at level 17th is nice so if you have a party that can really work together...it will shine.
I don't know. I am strongly against magic items, but a lot of wizard spells need material components.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I challenge anyone to take a shot on what to do on Round 1 of my post here to prove somehow that the Chronurgist will win every time.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/wizard/70409-chronurgist-vs-champion
Sorcerer with subtle and nobody else
A whole Beehive could beat a Wizard 20.....
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Any of "Can class X beat class Y?" threads are irrational.
The answer is "yes." Any class can beat any other class.
The assumption that they start off on an open plane, so many feat away from each other with just the two of them present and both of them fresh from a long rest and both know that they are in a fight begs the question "why?"
Who made up that rule and why?
Because it greatly benefits certain classes over others.
You might was well be asking "can class X beat class Y if we tie both class Y's arms behind them, gag them, blindfold them, and take all their gear away?"
Why? Why not.
This isn't a perfect way of testing combat power. Not at all. But it allows you to develop an understanding of what is powerful in combat, what works, what doesn't. You can get some very interesting ideas from this thread. Brewskys perpetually dodging near infinite life fighter, for example, is one of the most interesting builds I have seen in a while. It is certainly built for a niche, but interesting nonetheless.
There isn't anything wrong with these threads existing.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
it doesn't really give you an idea of what is powerful in combat unless you're stuck playing the kinds of DnD combats we all played way back in junior high school.
If this kind of discussion is fun for you, then have the discussion. I didn't say no one can participate in this thread. It just doesn't tell you anything about which class is the most powerful.
It actually encourages reductionistic thinking. In reality, the assassin isn't likely to face off against the wizard in a big blank room. He's going to be serving the wizard a poisoned breakfast before the wizard even gets to the big, blank room.
That's fair. However, the purpose of this thread is not to find the most powerful class in every situation. It is to find the best class in the single situation proposed. The situation that we propose isn't really going to ever happen in a normal game.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
yeah the question is can druids just wildshape/de-wildshape out of being polymorphed? If I DM'ed I'd say yes because that's honestly really smart
what if druid just is wildshaped the whole time and doesn't bother with casting spells at the wizard, just buffing themselves and dishing out pain
Level 20 Druids or Sorcerers might be able to match the Wizard…probably more-so the Druid.
A 20th Level Cleric has an interesting tactic with their guaranteed-to-succeed “Divine Intervention”.
It still depends who wins initiative. If the wizard wins, they have a lot of nasty options available.
Just noticed that the number for this thread is just 1 away from the unholy number 69420...
Unfortunately no, polymorph causes you to lose class features.
Honestly, the game should not be called Dungeons and Dragons. There is absolutely ZERO class balance. The game should be called Wizards and Weenies. Because if you are not a Wizard...
Nathair Sgiathach is my co-pilot
It's PvE not PvP. There are many, many, monsters that can deal with wizards - being specifically designed to. Including some single monsters that could wipe the floor effortlessly against Wizards due to being able to prevent spellcasting.
Classes are not meant to be pitted against each other and never were. That was not the point of D&D.
But there are builds that can beat level 20 wizards. So you position on this subject is little more than unfounded bias.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
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I never referred to PvP. I referred to class rankings to determine "which class is the most valuable and powerful within a party." There are tons of such rankings out there, so don't take my word for it...look for yourself and see what you see. Yep, you will find that it is definitely the Wizard, the class that is (by far) the highest ranking class in any such analysis. This is NOT my unfounded bias, it is the consensus of the community. Refer to any class rankings analysis that you can find, and Wizard will almost always be the highest ranked class.
So you are correct that certain monsters can defeat a Wizard, but that is true of any class. But Wizard is still (most often) the winner in any such contest. Which flies in the face of WotC's expressed goal of making all the classes of equal importance to a party in party play. So...I don't like that, but I don't dispute it. I stand by Wizards and Weenies...a sadly accurate description of the game.
Nathair Sgiathach is my co-pilot
Get a friend and tell him you are going wizard and he can select any other level 20 single class but wizard. No magic items for either of you. Battle 5 times...if the wizard wins 4 of the 5 times, you have your answer and your friend can try with another class. Let us know how it goes. You both select classic (non variant) human.
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E/RPG geek.
Well sure...but we are not looking for PvP here. We are looking for which class (if any) can match the Wizard's value to a party in regular play. Or will the Wizard always outshine all the other player characters? Few people play at 20th level, but I think that after 10th level or so, the Wizard is untouchable in that regard. Just ask anyone who plays a martial character in a party with a wizard.
Nathair Sgiathach is my co-pilot
The original post is PVP.
Shining alongside the wizard: Sorcerer and Druid shine at higher levels. Someone mentioned 20th level divine intervention for clerics...and the peace cleric's expansive bond at level 17th is nice so if you have a party that can really work together...it will shine.
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E/RPG geek.