Is there any class that can beat the Wizard? In every other 20 v 20 battle, the Wizard would counterspell anything, and feels unbeatable. But can the nova potential of a Paladin one-shot a wizard? Post opinions below.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
The Paladin is a tough nut. Oath of the Ancients gives resistance to magical damage, and the Paladin's auras allow you to add his Charisma modifier to saving throws they have to make.
If the Paladin does get into melee range, and does get the opportunity to make their melee attacks, then I think it is likely that the Paladin would mush the Wizard. However the most important word in that sentence is "if". Under ideal circumstances the Paladin would mush the Wizard, but under any other circumstances the Wizard would probably still beat them.
Wizards are extremely powerful at higher levels, paid for by being somewhat mushy at lower levels.
Probably one of the most likely. Once the Wizard gets off Invulnerability, it is over. But a solid NOVA round with Crits before the Wizard goes could take them out. Consider an Oath of Conquest. At level 20 you can do 3 attacks, critting on a 19 or 20, using Guiding Strike to get +10 to hit. Convert that to +5 to hit, +10 damage via Great Weapon Master, using a weapon that does 2d6 damage and you can do this:
Assume one critted, out of the 3 attacks and all 3 hit (a bit lucky, but not ridiculous), with a bonus action to staggering strike, but the crit not on that strike.
Lets go with a Greatword flametoungue, +3 to hit and damage, +2d6 fire on each hit.
2d6 weapon + 5 strength, + 3 weapon +10 GWM + 4d8 Smite (out of 5th level slots) +2d6 fire
With Great weapon Fighting style turning 1 or 2 into on average 3.5, that should add about 2 points of damage for every 3d6 of weapon damage, let's say +10
Total damage for one reasonably likely Nova round = 54 + 14d8+ 18d6, averages 54+ 63+63 = 190 hitpoints of damage + about 10 from GWFS = 200 damage.
A 20th level wizard is likely to have around 188 hitpoints, so that is likely to kill the wizard.
Assuming 1) He gets initiative, and 2) he is smart enough to go ALL OUT NOVA, with a good weapon, on the first round, burning through 3 channels a bonus Staggering Strike and 3) getting at least one crit (19-20 = 6 in 20 chances to get it)
That also assumes the wizard is not a Divination (portent) or Chron (similar ability), nor do they have a well worded contingent Otilukes and their AC - even with Shield - is not too high.
Yeah, I thought the Paladin would have the best chance against the Wizard. They could probably only win if they won initiative and killed the Wizard in one shot. If the wizard is a chronurgist, then I think that there is no class that can beat them.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
The only one better might be Monster Slayer Ranger. 7th, 11th, and 15th level abilities all either help you with saves or cancels spells. Basically you got unlimited counterspell
The only one better might be Monster Slayer Ranger. 7th, 11th, and 15th level abilities all either help you with saves or cancels spells. Basically you got unlimited counterspell
Supernatural Defense
Magic-User's Nemesis
Slayer's Counter
I laughed when read I this. A Ranger, possibly the most underpowered class of all time, could beat a wizard? Then I immediately got my Xanathar's and began researching. The main draw of this class is the 11th level feature, which is the counterspell, since and technically isn't magic and can't be counterspelled back. But, you can only use it once per short or long rest. Slayer's counter (the 15th level feature) only works on a target that has been marked with the 3rd level feature. So basically, the fight look's like this:
Wizard wins initiative: Ranger counterspells anything they do and hope it works. If the counter fails, they are probably dead.
Ranger wins initiative: Ranger marks the wizard with Slayer's prey with a bonus action, and now has a small chance of resisting the Wizard's spells. I guess the ranger shoots the wizard with a longbow, then?
I am changing the title of this thread to Can anything beat Wizard 20
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
An Archdruid has some chance. Specifically Moon Druids, with their bulky elemental forms. Unlimited Wild Shape also means technically unlimited HP, and since Wild Shape is not a spell it can be neither dispelled nor countered. The wizard would have spells of control and mitigation, of course, but a moon druid can Dispel Invulnerability even while Wild Shaped. Using high-level Dispel (possibly even ninth) means the wizard has to bank on making that casting ability check, and once both ninth-level slots are dispensed with the Archdruid has the advantage of endless wells of fresh HP.
On top of not having to provide any spell components, which technically means the wizard can't even Counterspell that initial Dispel. No components means no ability to recognize the spell, which means no COunterspell. Wild Shape, cast Dispel without V, S, or M, preventing all Counterspelling nonsense. A huge Wisdom score helps with most disable-to-win spells, and the Archdruid can proceed to just Dispel everything the wizard does while mauling it to death with their choice of elemental form.
Obviously whoever lands a fight-ending disable first wins, but under the assumption that this doesn't happen for whatever reason, the Archdruid has a much better chance against a level 20 Wizard than many assume.
An Archdruid has some chance. Specifically Moon Druids, with their bulky elemental forms. Unlimited Wild Shape also means technically unlimited HP, and since Wild Shape is not a spell it can be neither dispelled nor countered. The wizard would have spells of control and mitigation, of course, but a moon druid can Dispel Invulnerability even while Wild Shaped. Using high-level Dispel (possibly even ninth) means the wizard has to bank on making that casting ability check, and once both ninth-level slots are dispensed with the Archdruid has the advantage of endless wells of fresh HP.
On top of not having to provide any spell components, which technically means the wizard can't even Counterspell that initial Dispel. No components means no ability to recognize the spell, which means no COunterspell. Wild Shape, cast Dispel without V, S, or M, preventing all Counterspelling nonsense. A huge Wisdom score helps with most disable-to-win spells, and the Archdruid can proceed to just Dispel everything the wizard does while mauling it to death with their choice of elemental form.
Obviously whoever lands a fight-ending disable first wins, but under the assumption that this doesn't happen for whatever reason, the Archdruid has a much better chance against a level 20 Wizard than many assume.
I thought that the Druid would win as well, until I read the Druid 20 vs. Wizard 20 thread. It shows ways for the Wizard to beat the Druid. If the Wizard can't counterspell the druids spells (which has been argued over), than the druid could beat the wizard. The biggest problem is the polymorph execution. I read the chronurgist a while ago, don't remember exactly what its ability is that it forces failed saves. Could someone clarify what that is, and if a druid could beat it?
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
The Chronoturgist's 14th-level ability allows it to use its reaction to dictate the result of a roll - either just enough to succeed or one less than enough to succeed. It can, thusly, force someone to fail a Polymorph save, after which it uses PWK on its next turn
If a Chronoturgist wins initiative, then it's up to the DM whether or not an Archdruid counts as "a shapeshifter" for purposes of immunity to Polymorph. Generally the answer would be no, as during the course of normal gameplay the assumption is that the druid is as valid a target as any other for the party's benevolent Polymorph spells. At that point the Polymorph'd creature's only option is to try and drop itself to 0HP on its single turn before it's killed, and a Chronoturgist making use of this combination would know to select a form unable to kill itself in one turn.
This is mostly what I meant when I said that whoever lands a fight-ending disable first wins. Polymorph counts as a fight-ending disable even without PWK, given its ability to deny a target all of its equipment and abilities. Frankly, a Chronoturgist doesn't need PWK to win - True Polymorph is a single failed save away from permanently* transforming one's target into a commemorative spoon.
It is largely up to initiative in these circumstances. A lot of the time, it isn't even left to initiative if you're a Chronurgist. Just cast temporal shunt if they attack you or cast a spell, and then you automatically win by casting Invulnerability on the next turn.
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The Chronoturgist's 14th-level ability allows it to use its reaction to dictate the result of a roll - either just enough to succeed or one less than enough to succeed. It can, thusly, force someone to fail a Polymorph save, after which it uses PWK on its next turn
If a Chronoturgist wins initiative, then it's up to the DM whether or not an Archdruid counts as "a shapeshifter" for purposes of immunity to Polymorph. Generally the answer would be no, as during the course of normal gameplay the assumption is that the druid is as valid a target as any other for the party's benevolent Polymorph spells. At that point the Polymorph'd creature's only option is to try and drop itself to 0HP on its single turn before it's killed, and a Chronoturgist making use of this combination would know to select a form unable to kill itself in one turn.
This is mostly what I meant when I said that whoever lands a fight-ending disable first wins. Polymorph counts as a fight-ending disable even without PWK, given its ability to deny a target all of its equipment and abilities. Frankly, a Chronoturgist doesn't need PWK to win - True Polymorph is a single failed save away from permanently* transforming one's target into a commemorative spoon.
If I were a Wizard, I would be way too paranoid to ever use that spoon. Suddenly having a Woolly Mammoth appear on your table would make for interesting conversation, though.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
The Chronoturgist's 14th-level ability allows it to use its reaction to dictate the result of a roll - either just enough to succeed or one less than enough to succeed. It can, thusly, force someone to fail a Polymorph save, after which it uses PWK on its next turn
If a Chronoturgist wins initiative, then it's up to the DM whether or not an Archdruid counts as "a shapeshifter" for purposes of immunity to Polymorph. Generally the answer would be no, as during the course of normal gameplay the assumption is that the druid is as valid a target as any other for the party's benevolent Polymorph spells. At that point the Polymorph'd creature's only option is to try and drop itself to 0HP on its single turn before it's killed, and a Chronoturgist making use of this combination would know to select a form unable to kill itself in one turn.
This is mostly what I meant when I said that whoever lands a fight-ending disable first wins. Polymorph counts as a fight-ending disable even without PWK, given its ability to deny a target all of its equipment and abilities. Frankly, a Chronoturgist doesn't need PWK to win - True Polymorph is a single failed save away from permanently* transforming one's target into a commemorative spoon.
If I were a Wizard, I would be way too paranoid to ever use that spoon. Suddenly having a Woolly Mammoth appear on your table would make for interesting conversation, though.
That's why you turn them into a frog, or other animal that has no attacks. A slug could work well if the DM allows it.
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The only one better might be Monster Slayer Ranger. 7th, 11th, and 15th level abilities all either help you with saves or cancels spells. Basically you got unlimited counterspell
Supernatural Defense
Magic-User's Nemesis
Slayer's Counter
I laughed when read I this. A Ranger, possibly the most underpowered class of all time, could beat a wizard? Then I immediately got my Xanathar's and began researching. The main draw of this class is the 11th level feature, which is the counterspell, since and technically isn't magic and can't be counterspelled back. But, you can only use it once per short or long rest. Slayer's counter (the 15th level feature) only works on a target that has been marked with the 3rd level feature. So basically, the fight look's like this:
Wizard wins initiative: Ranger counterspells anything they do and hope it works. If the counter fails, they are probably dead.
Ranger wins initiative: Ranger marks the wizard with Slayer's prey with a bonus action, and now has a small chance of resisting the Wizard's spells. I guess the ranger shoots the wizard with a longbow, then?
I am changing the title of this thread to Can anything beat Wizard 20
Whoops, I have not played that class. I thought the Slayer could do the counter 1/round, not 1/long rest. If it's 1/long rest it totally sucks and I have to take back the advice.
Well, School of Abjuration beats basically any other full caster.
And I have an answer: the tarrasque beats a level 20 Wizard.
First, Chronurgist Wizards are in most circumstances the best wizard to fight any other class.
Second, no, I could easily beat a tarrasque as a wizard. Just need to cast Imprisonment, or push them off a few cliffs as a Graviturgist spamming thunderwave and shield. Also, like JoeltheWalrus said, if you're an Aarakocra Wizard, easy. If you aren't, just cast fly.
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I seriously doubt this. Wizards have better capstone abilities for both subclasses and the classes. Wizards have access to more spells and can prepare more than the sorcerer knows. Sure, sorcerers can subtle spell, but it's limited, and won't help them that much. Wizards win.
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Is there any class that can beat the Wizard? In every other 20 v 20 battle, the Wizard would counterspell anything, and feels unbeatable. But can the nova potential of a Paladin one-shot a wizard? Post opinions below.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
The Paladin is a tough nut. Oath of the Ancients gives resistance to magical damage, and the Paladin's auras allow you to add his Charisma modifier to saving throws they have to make.
If the Paladin does get into melee range, and does get the opportunity to make their melee attacks, then I think it is likely that the Paladin would mush the Wizard. However the most important word in that sentence is "if". Under ideal circumstances the Paladin would mush the Wizard, but under any other circumstances the Wizard would probably still beat them.
Wizards are extremely powerful at higher levels, paid for by being somewhat mushy at lower levels.
Probably one of the most likely. Once the Wizard gets off Invulnerability, it is over. But a solid NOVA round with Crits before the Wizard goes could take them out. Consider an Oath of Conquest. At level 20 you can do 3 attacks, critting on a 19 or 20, using Guiding Strike to get +10 to hit. Convert that to +5 to hit, +10 damage via Great Weapon Master, using a weapon that does 2d6 damage and you can do this:
Assume one critted, out of the 3 attacks and all 3 hit (a bit lucky, but not ridiculous), with a bonus action to staggering strike, but the crit not on that strike.
Lets go with a Greatword flametoungue, +3 to hit and damage, +2d6 fire on each hit.
With Great weapon Fighting style turning 1 or 2 into on average 3.5, that should add about 2 points of damage for every 3d6 of weapon damage, let's say +10
Total damage for one reasonably likely Nova round = 54 + 14d8+ 18d6, averages 54+ 63+63 = 190 hitpoints of damage + about 10 from GWFS = 200 damage.
A 20th level wizard is likely to have around 188 hitpoints, so that is likely to kill the wizard.
Assuming 1) He gets initiative, and 2) he is smart enough to go ALL OUT NOVA, with a good weapon, on the first round, burning through 3 channels a bonus Staggering Strike and 3) getting at least one crit (19-20 = 6 in 20 chances to get it)
That also assumes the wizard is not a Divination (portent) or Chron (similar ability), nor do they have a well worded contingent Otilukes and their AC - even with Shield - is not too high.
Yeah, I thought the Paladin would have the best chance against the Wizard. They could probably only win if they won initiative and killed the Wizard in one shot. If the wizard is a chronurgist, then I think that there is no class that can beat them.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
The only one better might be Monster Slayer Ranger. 7th, 11th, and 15th level abilities all either help you with saves or cancels spells. Basically you got unlimited counterspell
I laughed when read I this. A Ranger, possibly the most underpowered class of all time, could beat a wizard? Then I immediately got my Xanathar's and began researching. The main draw of this class is the 11th level feature, which is the counterspell, since and technically isn't magic and can't be counterspelled back. But, you can only use it once per short or long rest. Slayer's counter (the 15th level feature) only works on a target that has been marked with the 3rd level feature. So basically, the fight look's like this:
Wizard wins initiative: Ranger counterspells anything they do and hope it works. If the counter fails, they are probably dead.
Ranger wins initiative: Ranger marks the wizard with Slayer's prey with a bonus action, and now has a small chance of resisting the Wizard's spells. I guess the ranger shoots the wizard with a longbow, then?
I am changing the title of this thread to Can anything beat Wizard 20
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
A rundown of the Wizard's best tactics
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
An Archdruid has some chance. Specifically Moon Druids, with their bulky elemental forms. Unlimited Wild Shape also means technically unlimited HP, and since Wild Shape is not a spell it can be neither dispelled nor countered. The wizard would have spells of control and mitigation, of course, but a moon druid can Dispel Invulnerability even while Wild Shaped. Using high-level Dispel (possibly even ninth) means the wizard has to bank on making that casting ability check, and once both ninth-level slots are dispensed with the Archdruid has the advantage of endless wells of fresh HP.
On top of not having to provide any spell components, which technically means the wizard can't even Counterspell that initial Dispel. No components means no ability to recognize the spell, which means no COunterspell. Wild Shape, cast Dispel without V, S, or M, preventing all Counterspelling nonsense. A huge Wisdom score helps with most disable-to-win spells, and the Archdruid can proceed to just Dispel everything the wizard does while mauling it to death with their choice of elemental form.
Obviously whoever lands a fight-ending disable first wins, but under the assumption that this doesn't happen for whatever reason, the Archdruid has a much better chance against a level 20 Wizard than many assume.
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I thought that the Druid would win as well, until I read the Druid 20 vs. Wizard 20 thread. It shows ways for the Wizard to beat the Druid. If the Wizard can't counterspell the druids spells (which has been argued over), than the druid could beat the wizard. The biggest problem is the polymorph execution. I read the chronurgist a while ago, don't remember exactly what its ability is that it forces failed saves. Could someone clarify what that is, and if a druid could beat it?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
The Chronoturgist's 14th-level ability allows it to use its reaction to dictate the result of a roll - either just enough to succeed or one less than enough to succeed. It can, thusly, force someone to fail a Polymorph save, after which it uses PWK on its next turn
If a Chronoturgist wins initiative, then it's up to the DM whether or not an Archdruid counts as "a shapeshifter" for purposes of immunity to Polymorph. Generally the answer would be no, as during the course of normal gameplay the assumption is that the druid is as valid a target as any other for the party's benevolent Polymorph spells. At that point the Polymorph'd creature's only option is to try and drop itself to 0HP on its single turn before it's killed, and a Chronoturgist making use of this combination would know to select a form unable to kill itself in one turn.
This is mostly what I meant when I said that whoever lands a fight-ending disable first wins. Polymorph counts as a fight-ending disable even without PWK, given its ability to deny a target all of its equipment and abilities. Frankly, a Chronoturgist doesn't need PWK to win - True Polymorph is a single failed save away from permanently* transforming one's target into a commemorative spoon.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
It is largely up to initiative in these circumstances. A lot of the time, it isn't even left to initiative if you're a Chronurgist. Just cast temporal shunt if they attack you or cast a spell, and then you automatically win by casting Invulnerability on the next turn.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Quote from Yurei1453 >>
If I were a Wizard, I would be way too paranoid to ever use that spoon. Suddenly having a Woolly Mammoth appear on your table would make for interesting conversation, though.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
That's why you turn them into a frog, or other animal that has no attacks. A slug could work well if the DM allows it.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Whoops, I have not played that class. I thought the Slayer could do the counter 1/round, not 1/long rest. If it's 1/long rest it totally sucks and I have to take back the advice.
Well, School of Abjuration beats basically any other full caster.
And I have an answer: the tarrasque beats a level 20 Wizard.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
Why School of Abjuration? Counterspells?
I think that most lv20 classes can beat a tarrasque. It can't fly, and has no ranged attacks.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
First, Chronurgist Wizards are in most circumstances the best wizard to fight any other class.
Second, no, I could easily beat a tarrasque as a wizard. Just need to cast Imprisonment, or push them off a few cliffs as a Graviturgist spamming thunderwave and shield. Also, like JoeltheWalrus said, if you're an Aarakocra Wizard, easy. If you aren't, just cast fly.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
1. School of Abjuration because they take half damage from spells and have advantage on saving throws against spells.
2. Ok, maybe Tiamat then?
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
A lvl 20 sorcerer would beat a lvl 20 wiz easy
I seriously doubt this. Wizards have better capstone abilities for both subclasses and the classes. Wizards have access to more spells and can prepare more than the sorcerer knows. Sure, sorcerers can subtle spell, but it's limited, and won't help them that much. Wizards win.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms