I guess my main thought is there are a ton of factors. How far away are the two when the fight starts? Who goes first? Where are they? Who initiates the fight? Does the monk sneak in and start attacking the wizard right after he wakes up from a long rest? Does the wizard see the monk skipping on the road and decide to start flying before raining destruction? Or does the wizard raise an army of undead before setting off to kill the monk? Simulacrum? summon a dragon? What about Planar Binding a bunch of elementals?
The question was, "Can anything beat a 20 wizard?" Yes! Also, any number of monsters could.
Ok so I would consider fleeing a forfeit, so basically what it takes for the wizard to win vs a monk is flight, an ability that's probably in every good wizard build, even if we don't use something like a winged tiefling wizard. I don't think matchup rules were exactly set or anything, but I don't think this is about prepped fights. It's not like wizard is my favorite class or anything, but I just think the class has an answer to just about any problem and many ways to completely shut down the other classes. Not every wizard will be able to prevail in every case, but I think most wizards will be able to prevail most of the time.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
But how would the wizard win if the Monk only rolls nat 20s?!?! Wait, that's highly unlikely. Similarly, you don't get to pick your portent rolls. But lets assume you have one that is high enough to win initiative , then two that are low enough to fail the save DCs. The Monk STILL can use 1 Ki point to roll that Wisdom save again that he will pass 65% of the time. Which means you win this fight using this method 35% of the time when you get the perfect portent rolls. After that, advantage monk as previously explained. How often will this work the way you explained? When you roll the portent rolls, you will get one roll higher than the average for initiative and two rolls low enough to force failing saving throws ~18% of the time. Factoring in the times that the Monk Fails his Diamond Soul extra saving throw roll, we're looking at 6.4%. That's a win chance of 6.4% using this method.
I did the math, the monk can stun lock the wizard for 5 rounds 60% of the time and its probably enough to kill the wizard. Even if one of those rounds he is unable to get a stun off, he's standing right next to the wizard which is doom for the wizard. Option 1, try to cast a spell and almost certainly fail and possibly get stunned due to Mage Slayer feat. Option 2, move away to try to cast a spell and take an Opportunity attack with the possibly of getting stunned, then cast the spell which the monk will likely pass his save. Option 3, take the disengage action and just die later because monk will catch you and start the stunning over. Option 2 is the best option but I still don't like the odds do to how good the monk is at resisting spells.
I'm still saying even if this is your plan, the monk will win more than he loses and I don't think it will be close. Your best bet as the wizard would be if you can't pull it off perfect but can still win initiative, cast gate and run away forcing a draw. Then come back tomorrow and try again. I guess eventually you'll get your perfect portent rolls, but even then your chance to win is probably in the low 40% range.
Ahh yes, Diamond Soul, very good feature I had forgotten about since I don't play a high level monk. Good point. So how does a monk counters wizard who wins initiative with a Portent or chronurgy and the flies up out of reach?
He runs away!
I guess my main thought is there are a ton of factors. How far away are the two when the fight starts? Who goes first? Where are they? Who initiates the fight? Does the monk sneak in and start attacking the wizard right after he wakes up from a long rest? Does the wizard see the monk skipping on the road and decide to start flying before raining destruction? Or does the wizard raise an army of undead before setting off to kill the monk? Simulacrum? summon a dragon? What about Planar Binding a bunch of elementals?
The question was, "Can anything beat a 20 wizard?" Yes! Also, any number of monsters could.
To answer question about the situation of the fight, here are some basic parameters
Both characters are newly created for the purpose of combat. They have all their spell slots and features recharged.
The arena is a flat plain, infinetly large
Neither character gets preparation time; no precast buffs or legions of undead
I am not so sure about magic items, but if you have them in a build they should not be the focus.
This thread was meant to be player vs. player oriented, the amalgamation of all the other x class 20 vs. wizard 20 threads. There are a few monsters that could be a well-built lv. 20 wizard, but not many.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I have a lvl 20 abjuration Wizard that I've played in AL since lvl 1. We have had some battle royales here and there with the group and the only way to beat him is to have a higher initiative roll. But that goes for a lot of classes. Once your character and party hit tier 4 (lvl 17) it's almost an entirely new game altogether.
Maybe have 4 posts 10 feet wide in the area? They don't start behind them, but are close enough to get there in a turn.
The most fair way would be to have multiple arenas; a feature less on with people starting 60ft. apart, one with the combatants 30ft. apart, and one with natural cover. Whichever build could win in the the majority of arenas wins.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Hill Dwarf Champion Fighter with Dwarven Fortitude Resilient Wisdom, Shield Master, and Durable. AC 21, 244 Max HP, regen 10HP per round after getting to 122 HP and Heal 15HP every time you dodge (to a max of 300HP). Mathematically, the Wizard can’t do enough damage to kill the Fighter before running out of spell slots and losing the battle of attrition and eventually having to come down to the ground.
If you decide to give them magical items of some kind: Boots of Flying, a Magical Weapon, and some See Invis will make it go more quickly.
Hill Dwarf Champion Fighter with Dwarven Fortitude Resilient Wisdom, Shield Master, and Durable. AC 21, 244 Max HP, regen 10HP per round after getting to 122 HP and Heal 15HP every time you dodge (to a max of 300HP). Mathematically, the Wizard can’t do enough damage to kill the Fighter before running out of spell slots and losing the battle of attrition and eventually having to come down to the ground.
If you decide to give them magical items of some kind: Boots of Flying, a Magical Weapon, and some See Invis will make it go more quickly.
20.25% Chance of hitting that spell on round 1, which means there’s a 50/50 chance you stick it in the first 3 rounds.
If you cast Fly the first round, then in return for the first two rounds, at least 8 out of 16 longbow arrows hit their mark doing 76 damage. 19 damage per round after that. That’s 8 rolls for Concentration to lose flight and take extra damage from falling.
If not flight, then first two rounds the damage is 92 damage with the rapier and 23 damage per round after that.
How much HP for your example Wizard? Throw up a link and let’s do some theorycrafting. 🙂
Also, one simple Magical item like a Mantle of Spell Resistance... 20.25% Chance of Failure and 45% Chance of Indomitable Failure (only about a 9% chance of success and 25% likelihood in first 3 rounds)... and then even Poly+PWK won’t win a majority of battles.
Why is this always a pre-requisite? You guys realize that the game isn’t balanced assuming there are no magical items, right?
You're 100% incorrect. The classes and game is balanced around having no magic items. It's only fair to keep them away from magic items unless their built in class features grant them this.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
20.25% Chance of hitting that spell on round 1, which means there’s a 50/50 chance you stick it in the first 3 rounds.
If you cast Fly the first round, then in return for the first two rounds, at least 8 out of 16 longbow arrows hit their mark doing 76 damage. 19 damage per round after that. That’s 8 rolls for Concentration to lose flight and take extra damage from falling.
If not flight, then first two rounds the damage is 92 damage with the rapier and 23 damage per round after that.
How much HP for your example Wizard? Throw up a link and let’s do some theorycrafting. 🙂
Also, one simple Magical item like a Mantle of Spell Resistance... 20.25% Chance of Failure and 45% Chance of Indomitable Failure (only about a 9% chance of success and 25% likelihood in first 3 rounds)... and then even Poly+PWK won’t win a majority of battles.
You don't need to cast fly. The very first round, if the Dwarf goes first and attacks you, cast Temporal Shunt. On your turn, cast Invulnerability. You have immediately won.
If you go first, cast Polymorph and force them to fail. Turn them into a frog. Next round, Power Word Kill them.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Sure, but this would change absolutely nothing against any official wizards.
Spell casting focus?
Nope. Only for Scribe Wizards, and they're not official.
You could steal a spellcasting focus, but that's difficult, and would require an action for a minor disadvantage, whey you could just straight up kill them if you get that close.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Ok so I would consider fleeing a forfeit, so basically what it takes for the wizard to win vs a monk is flight, an ability that's probably in every good wizard build, even if we don't use something like a winged tiefling wizard. I don't think matchup rules were exactly set or anything, but I don't think this is about prepped fights. It's not like wizard is my favorite class or anything, but I just think the class has an answer to just about any problem and many ways to completely shut down the other classes. Not every wizard will be able to prevail in every case, but I think most wizards will be able to prevail most of the time.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
To answer question about the situation of the fight, here are some basic parameters
This thread was meant to be player vs. player oriented, the amalgamation of all the other x class 20 vs. wizard 20 threads. There are a few monsters that could be a well-built lv. 20 wizard, but not many.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
No magic items, unless you're an artificer.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The distance they start at is also a question.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
60 feet is what I'd say is the best distance for most combatants. Lets them counterspell. 30 feet might be more fair to most melee combatants.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Also the flat featureless plain seems like it would put the rogue at a disadvantage.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Maybe have 4 posts 10 feet wide in the area? They don't start behind them, but are close enough to get there in a turn.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I have a lvl 20 abjuration Wizard that I've played in AL since lvl 1. We have had some battle royales here and there with the group and the only way to beat him is to have a higher initiative roll. But that goes for a lot of classes. Once your character and party hit tier 4 (lvl 17) it's almost an entirely new game altogether.
The most fair way would be to have multiple arenas; a feature less on with people starting 60ft. apart, one with the combatants 30ft. apart, and one with natural cover. Whichever build could win in the the majority of arenas wins.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Hill Dwarf Champion Fighter with Dwarven Fortitude Resilient Wisdom, Shield Master, and Durable. AC 21, 244 Max HP, regen 10HP per round after getting to 122 HP and Heal 15HP every time you dodge (to a max of 300HP). Mathematically, the Wizard can’t do enough damage to kill the Fighter before running out of spell slots and losing the battle of attrition and eventually having to come down to the ground.
If you decide to give them magical items of some kind: Boots of Flying, a Magical Weapon, and some See Invis will make it go more quickly.
https://ddb.ac/characters/20393806/D2BN7a
Polymorph + Power Word Kill
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
20.25% Chance of hitting that spell on round 1, which means there’s a 50/50 chance you stick it in the first 3 rounds.
If you cast Fly the first round, then in return for the first two rounds, at least 8 out of 16 longbow arrows hit their mark doing 76 damage. 19 damage per round after that. That’s 8 rolls for Concentration to lose flight and take extra damage from falling.
If not flight, then first two rounds the damage is 92 damage with the rapier and 23 damage per round after that.
How much HP for your example Wizard? Throw up a link and let’s do some theorycrafting. 🙂
Also, one simple Magical item like a Mantle of Spell Resistance... 20.25% Chance of Failure and 45% Chance of Indomitable Failure (only about a 9% chance of success and 25% likelihood in first 3 rounds)... and then even Poly+PWK won’t win a majority of battles.
Why is this always a pre-requisite? You guys realize that the game isn’t balanced assuming there are no magical items, right?
You're 100% incorrect. The classes and game is balanced around having no magic items. It's only fair to keep them away from magic items unless their built in class features grant them this.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You don't need to cast fly. The very first round, if the Dwarf goes first and attacks you, cast Temporal Shunt. On your turn, cast Invulnerability. You have immediately won.
If you go first, cast Polymorph and force them to fail. Turn them into a frog. Next round, Power Word Kill them.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
50 20th level wizards built to kill wizards could do it. simples ;)
Beardy druid.
Very beardy druid. With a cap.
Can a thief steal the wizards spell book?
Sure, but this would change absolutely nothing against any official wizards.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Spell casting focus?
Nope. Only for Scribe Wizards, and they're not official.
You could steal a spellcasting focus, but that's difficult, and would require an action for a minor disadvantage, whey you could just straight up kill them if you get that close.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms