I would have more sympathy with the D&DBeyond position if they allowed you to buy physical copies of the books with an electronic copy as well (I would even pay more for this). Or if they charged a reasonable price (eg. £5-10) for a book. It may be different in the UK, but I pay a similar price for my physical book (£33) as I would for a D&Dbeyond electronic copy [REDACTED]. I’m with all the others who say D&DBeyond are rinsing fans on the basis of having 1 character creator
I'm with your but the problem is above them,
For example, for call of cthulhu the publisher (chaosium) does this, but the publisher of the italian version (raven) is against pdfs and sells only physical copies.
Maybe dndbeyond cannot sell physical books (because it also mean logistics) just to bundle the digital version.
[REDACTED]
Notes: Please do not advocate copyright violation, even in jest. Thank you
But... they SELL the books. It might not be physical, but it’s still the book. If I bring a book to a bookstore and they ALSO have the book, they should be able to tell me whatever about it.
But... they SELL the books. It might not be physical, but it’s still the book. If I bring a book to a bookstore and they ALSO have the book, they should be able to tell me whatever about it.
DDB does not sell books, they sell compendiums of information. A book is a physical object with a spine and covers and pages. So no, if you go to Barns & Nobels with a book, not one person working there would be able to tell you which types of trees or other plants were used in the construction of the paper, the materials from which the cover was made, which animals were used to make the glue in the binding, or the precise chemical company manufactured the glue used in the binding. That is the stuff relevant to “the book.”
They may very well be able to talk about publishing houses, authors, genres, or any other facts regarding the information contained within said book. And they could likely tell you about the various printings that were and are available. But that has somewhere between “very little” to “absolutely nothing whatsoever” to do with the physical book s themselves. All of that information pertains to the contents of those books.
So no, DDB doesn’t sell “books,” they sell compendiums of information. Barns & Nobels sells “books” that contain said compendiums of information. But purchases of any hardback from B&N doesn’t automatically include paperback copies from them as well. What’s more, purchases from other retailers of the same products, like LGSs or Amazon, also doesn’t obligate B&N to give you anything either, and vice versa. Those are at least all dealing with actual books, so apples to apples. (As an “apples to apples” example pertaining to DDB, purchasing from DDB, they don’t entitle customers to additional digital editions from DDB’s competitors like Roll20, and vice versa.)
So you can see how purchases from DDB wouldn’t entitle anyone to go to B&N and demand second copy of said compendiums, and the purchase of any physical copies of don’t entitle anyone to demand another copy in digital format from retailers, DDB, or any of the others. Comparing physical to digital is a clear example of an apples to oranges comparison.
Regarding any incentives some retailers offer including digital editions of content in conjunction with physical editions ofnthe same content, that is all irrelevant. The reasons those examples are irrelevant are (at minimum) twofold:
Some of those example pertain to retains actual sell both physical and digital editions of those products and if they want to give some of their own inventory away for free to attract sales that is their business. (Like when supermarkets offer BOGOs.) And I am not aware of a single retailer of both pity and digital editions of D&D compendiums, not even the almighty Amazon. (And they have controlling stake in approximately half of the internet. For real, if one refuses permissions for Amazon on their devices around 50% of all existing websites won’t function in some way. And neither will many services including Netflix, since their content is stored on Amazon servers.)
The other examples represent incentives backed by the manufacturers of those products. In this case that’s WotC. The only product they have chosen to incentivize is the starter set.
Basically, folks really need to take this issue up with WotC. And that’s a soulless, money grubbing entity owned by a mega conglomerate. So good luck with that.
Basically, folks really need to take this issue up with WotC. And that’s a soulless, money grubbing entity owned by a mega conglomerate. So good luck with that.
This made me laugh. Summed up this entire argument in a poignant way.
This is like expecting Amazon to give you a free, online PDF of a book you purchased from Indigo Chapters. Or a discount on a PDF because you bought the book from someone else.
I think this expectation is correct. In most cases you're buing license to the content. Book, game, music it's just a content. Physical book it's just carrier for the content. I imagine that in the future we will buy license and you can use any medium to consume it.
Then you will pay company that is providing you best services regarding licenses that you bought. But such fee should be uncomparable lower then cost of the license.
It's a tough spot that as gamers, we're asked to (unless we have deep wallets or don't care about wasting money) support an LGS or buy content on DND Beyond.
Do I want to help out my LGS and buy physical books locally? Or do I want to grab an online copy?
It's a tough spot. I get DBB needs to make its $, but it feels odd there is no deal between DBB and WOTC to give relief to those who buy in one medium initially and would like to move into the other.
It's a tough spot that as gamers, we're asked to (unless we have deep wallets or don't care about wasting money) support an LGS or buy content on DND Beyond.
Do I want to help out my LGS and buy physical books locally? Or do I want to grab an online copy?
It's a tough spot. I get DBB needs to make its $, but it feels odd there is no deal between DBB and WOTC to give relief to those who buy in one medium initially and would like to move into the other.
And how do you believe a deal could be made between them where books don't basically cost twice as much because they have to support both? Either way you're going to end up paying for it.
people comparing digital goods that cost the company nothing vs physical goods at a store... sure.. makes so much sense... not saying they should be "free" but $30 just for "access" to a pdf is a bit much.
people comparing digital goods that cost the company nothing vs physical goods at a store... sure.. makes so much sense... not saying they should be "free" but $30 just for "access" to a pdf is a bit much.
"cost the company nothing"
So:
- web hosting costs
- e-merchant costs
- staff wages
- equipment purchase and maintenance costs
- insurance costs
- accounting costs
- legal costs
- publicity costs
- sponsorship and advertising costs
- high speed internet costs
- security costs
- licensing costs for software used
- licensing costs with WotC : every single purchase of non-free content has to be licensed with WotC for D&D Beyond to grant to the customer (D&D Beyond is not part of WotC, they're a separate company)
- graphic artist and animator costs (some are used on site and there's the dice skins)
It's a tough spot that as gamers, we're asked to (unless we have deep wallets or don't care about wasting money) support an LGS or buy content on DND Beyond.
Do I want to help out my LGS and buy physical books locally? Or do I want to grab an online copy?
It's a tough spot. I get DBB needs to make its $, but it feels odd there is no deal between DBB and WOTC to give relief to those who buy in one medium initially and would like to move into the other.
And how do you believe a deal could be made between them where books don't basically cost twice as much because they have to support both? Either way you're going to end up paying for it.
From a simple business standpoint, you accept reduced margins to help increase product spread. IE, give 20% off, still make some mark up, but secure a larger customer base.
It's not an uncommon strategy. I think it would be easier particularly because WOTC owns its licensing.
It's a tough spot that as gamers, we're asked to (unless we have deep wallets or don't care about wasting money) support an LGS or buy content on DND Beyond.
Do I want to help out my LGS and buy physical books locally? Or do I want to grab an online copy?
It's a tough spot. I get DBB needs to make its $, but it feels odd there is no deal between DBB and WOTC to give relief to those who buy in one medium initially and would like to move into the other.
And how do you believe a deal could be made between them where books don't basically cost twice as much because they have to support both? Either way you're going to end up paying for it.
From a simple business standpoint, you accept reduced margins to help increase product spread. IE, give 20% off, still make some mark up, but secure a larger customer base.
It's not an uncommon strategy. I think it would be easier particularly because WOTC owns its licensing.
But D&D Beyond is not WotC and they have to pay out for licensing for every non-free bit of content. This is only going to work if WotC let D&D Beyond give out the digital version without asking for payment, which WotC is never going to do and D&D Beyond cannot make them, while also asking both D&D Beyond and the physical store to give a huge discount, reducing profits.
No, this strategy does not work. It's workable if WotC owned D&D Beyond, but they don't.
It's a tough spot that as gamers, we're asked to (unless we have deep wallets or don't care about wasting money) support an LGS or buy content on DND Beyond.
Do I want to help out my LGS and buy physical books locally? Or do I want to grab an online copy?
It's a tough spot. I get DBB needs to make its $, but it feels odd there is no deal between DBB and WOTC to give relief to those who buy in one medium initially and would like to move into the other.
And how do you believe a deal could be made between them where books don't basically cost twice as much because they have to support both? Either way you're going to end up paying for it.
From a simple business standpoint, you accept reduced margins to help increase product spread. IE, give 20% off, still make some mark up, but secure a larger customer base.
It's not an uncommon strategy. I think it would be easier particularly because WOTC owns its licensing.
Depends on the situation and environment. While I do not have the numbers nor research to back my opinion up, I do not think it makes sense to attempt to get a larger customer base through lower prices if it means lower profits. TTRPGs is a very niche market, and while it is more popular now and D&D has seen some pretty spectacular growth with 5e, I do not think it will be anywhere as popular as videogames, let alone a boardgame like Monopoly. D&D already dominates the TTRPG market and is usually the first TTRPG most people encounter, so I do not think they need to fight for more market share nor consumer awareness either through price. If anything, due to their near monopolistic status, it makes more sense to charge prices as high as consumers can bear to maximize profits. The Basic Rules/SRD, EEPC, and UA are also all free, so there are no financial barriers to speak of, and people can play D&D completely for free if they want to.
And unlike food, shelter, electricity, phone, and other necessities, TTRPGs hardly count as one, so I see no moral justification to lower prices, not to mention the core rules and countless homebrew are already completely free, and the stuff in UA are often pretty similar to their published counterparts, albeit toned down in power.
I akin this similar to a disc to digital transition that some retailers do. They charge a price to turn physical DVDs or Blu-Rays to a digital version. I believe this is something (with approval from WotC) that would increase DnDBeyond's profits with little work too implement and maintain.
I akin this similar to a disc to digital transition that some retailers do. They charge a price to turn physical DVDs or Blu-Rays to a digital version. I believe this is something (with approval from WotC) that would increase DnDBeyond's profits with little work too implement and maintain.
They already do that. They charge $30 (40% off MSRP) and you don’t even need the physical book at all.
I akin this similar to a disc to digital transition that some retailers do. They charge a price to turn physical DVDs or Blu-Rays to a digital version. I believe this is something (with approval from WotC) that would increase DnDBeyond's profits with little work too implement and maintain.
They already do that. They charge $30 (40% off MSRP) and you don’t even need the physical book at all.
I believe you missed the whole point of my suggestion.
My suggestion is to provide a physical to digital conversion service at a lower price point for those who have physical books already.
I akin this similar to a disc to digital transition that some retailers do. They charge a price to turn physical DVDs or Blu-Rays to a digital version. I believe this is something (with approval from WotC) that would increase DnDBeyond's profits with little work too implement and maintain.
They already do that. They charge $30 (40% off MSRP) and you don’t even need the physical book at all.
I believe you missed the whole point of my suggestion.
My suggestion is to provide a physical to digital conversion service at a lower price point for those who have physical books already.
You believe incorrectly. I got the point of your suggestion. I believe you missed the whole point of mine however. My point was that they already offer a low price point digital conversion whether you own the book or not. Your plan would cost the same $30 as what they already do.
I akin this similar to a disc to digital transition that some retailers do. They charge a price to turn physical DVDs or Blu-Rays to a digital version. I believe this is something (with approval from WotC) that would increase DnDBeyond's profits with little work too implement and maintain.
They already do that. They charge $30 (40% off MSRP) and you don’t even need the physical book at all.
I believe you missed the whole point of my suggestion.
My suggestion is to provide a physical to digital conversion service at a lower price point for those who have physical books already.
You believe incorrectly. I got the point of your suggestion. I believe you missed the whole point of mine however. My point was that they already offer a low price point digital conversion whether you own the book or not. Your plan would cost the same $30 as what they already do.
Digital compendium only is even cheaper at $20 (I assume we're basing the price point of this discussion on the PHB)
I'm with your but the problem is above them,
For example, for call of cthulhu the publisher (chaosium) does this, but the publisher of the italian version (raven) is against pdfs and sells only physical copies.
Maybe dndbeyond cannot sell physical books (because it also mean logistics) just to bundle the digital version.
[REDACTED]
But... they SELL the books. It might not be physical, but it’s still the book. If I bring a book to a bookstore and they ALSO have the book, they should be able to tell me whatever about it.
DDB does not sell books, they sell compendiums of information. A book is a physical object with a spine and covers and pages. So no, if you go to Barns & Nobels with a book, not one person working there would be able to tell you which types of trees or other plants were used in the construction of the paper, the materials from which the cover was made, which animals were used to make the glue in the binding, or the precise chemical company manufactured the glue used in the binding. That is the stuff relevant to “the book.”
They may very well be able to talk about publishing houses, authors, genres, or any other facts regarding the information contained within said book. And they could likely tell you about the various printings that were and are available. But that has somewhere between “very little” to “absolutely nothing whatsoever” to do with the physical book s themselves. All of that information pertains to the contents of those books.
So no, DDB doesn’t sell “books,” they sell compendiums of information. Barns & Nobels sells “books” that contain said compendiums of information. But purchases of any hardback from B&N doesn’t automatically include paperback copies from them as well. What’s more, purchases from other retailers of the same products, like LGSs or Amazon, also doesn’t obligate B&N to give you anything either, and vice versa. Those are at least all dealing with actual books, so apples to apples. (As an “apples to apples” example pertaining to DDB, purchasing from DDB, they don’t entitle customers to additional digital editions from DDB’s competitors like Roll20, and vice versa.)
So you can see how purchases from DDB wouldn’t entitle anyone to go to B&N and demand second copy of said compendiums, and the purchase of any physical copies of don’t entitle anyone to demand another copy in digital format from retailers, DDB, or any of the others. Comparing physical to digital is a clear example of an apples to oranges comparison.
Regarding any incentives some retailers offer including digital editions of content in conjunction with physical editions ofnthe same content, that is all irrelevant. The reasons those examples are irrelevant are (at minimum) twofold:
Some of those example pertain to retains actual sell both physical and digital editions of those products and if they want to give some of their own inventory away for free to attract sales that is their business. (Like when supermarkets offer BOGOs.) And I am not aware of a single retailer of both pity and digital editions of D&D compendiums, not even the almighty Amazon. (And they have controlling stake in approximately half of the internet. For real, if one refuses permissions for Amazon on their devices around 50% of all existing websites won’t function in some way. And neither will many services including Netflix, since their content is stored on Amazon servers.)
The other examples represent incentives backed by the manufacturers of those products. In this case that’s WotC. The only product they have chosen to incentivize is the starter set.
Basically, folks really need to take this issue up with WotC. And that’s a soulless, money grubbing entity owned by a mega conglomerate. So good luck with that.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
This made me laugh. Summed up this entire argument in a poignant way.
This is like expecting Amazon to give you a free, online PDF of a book you purchased from Indigo Chapters. Or a discount on a PDF because you bought the book from someone else.
It's funny, really...
I think this expectation is correct. In most cases you're buing license to the content. Book, game, music it's just a content. Physical book it's just carrier for the content. I imagine that in the future we will buy license and you can use any medium to consume it.
Then you will pay company that is providing you best services regarding licenses that you bought. But such fee should be uncomparable lower then cost of the license.
It's a tough spot that as gamers, we're asked to (unless we have deep wallets or don't care about wasting money) support an LGS or buy content on DND Beyond.
Do I want to help out my LGS and buy physical books locally? Or do I want to grab an online copy?
It's a tough spot. I get DBB needs to make its $, but it feels odd there is no deal between DBB and WOTC to give relief to those who buy in one medium initially and would like to move into the other.
And how do you believe a deal could be made between them where books don't basically cost twice as much because they have to support both? Either way you're going to end up paying for it.
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Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
people comparing digital goods that cost the company nothing vs physical goods at a store... sure.. makes so much sense... not saying they should be "free" but $30 just for "access" to a pdf is a bit much.
"cost the company nothing"
So:
- web hosting costs
- e-merchant costs
- staff wages
- equipment purchase and maintenance costs
- insurance costs
- accounting costs
- legal costs
- publicity costs
- sponsorship and advertising costs
- high speed internet costs
- security costs
- licensing costs for software used
- licensing costs with WotC : every single purchase of non-free content has to be licensed with WotC for D&D Beyond to grant to the customer (D&D Beyond is not part of WotC, they're a separate company)
- graphic artist and animator costs (some are used on site and there's the dice skins)
- and more
.. All are free in your world? How?
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
D&D Beyond is a toolset, not a PDF.
// I am Arenlor
Developers should read This Changelog
Moderator for D&D Beyond's YouTube, Twitch, and Discord, and for sister Cortex RPG.
From a simple business standpoint, you accept reduced margins to help increase product spread. IE, give 20% off, still make some mark up, but secure a larger customer base.
It's not an uncommon strategy. I think it would be easier particularly because WOTC owns its licensing.
But D&D Beyond is not WotC and they have to pay out for licensing for every non-free bit of content. This is only going to work if WotC let D&D Beyond give out the digital version without asking for payment, which WotC is never going to do and D&D Beyond cannot make them, while also asking both D&D Beyond and the physical store to give a huge discount, reducing profits.
No, this strategy does not work. It's workable if WotC owned D&D Beyond, but they don't.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
Depends on the situation and environment. While I do not have the numbers nor research to back my opinion up, I do not think it makes sense to attempt to get a larger customer base through lower prices if it means lower profits. TTRPGs is a very niche market, and while it is more popular now and D&D has seen some pretty spectacular growth with 5e, I do not think it will be anywhere as popular as videogames, let alone a boardgame like Monopoly. D&D already dominates the TTRPG market and is usually the first TTRPG most people encounter, so I do not think they need to fight for more market share nor consumer awareness either through price. If anything, due to their near monopolistic status, it makes more sense to charge prices as high as consumers can bear to maximize profits. The Basic Rules/SRD, EEPC, and UA are also all free, so there are no financial barriers to speak of, and people can play D&D completely for free if they want to.
And unlike food, shelter, electricity, phone, and other necessities, TTRPGs hardly count as one, so I see no moral justification to lower prices, not to mention the core rules and countless homebrew are already completely free, and the stuff in UA are often pretty similar to their published counterparts, albeit toned down in power.
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I akin this similar to a disc to digital transition that some retailers do. They charge a price to turn physical DVDs or Blu-Rays to a digital version. I believe this is something (with approval from WotC) that would increase DnDBeyond's profits with little work too implement and maintain.
They already do that. They charge $30 (40% off MSRP) and you don’t even need the physical book at all.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
I believe you missed the whole point of my suggestion.
My suggestion is to provide a physical to digital conversion service at a lower price point for those who have physical books already.
You believe incorrectly. I got the point of your suggestion. I believe you missed the whole point of mine however. My point was that they already offer a low price point digital conversion whether you own the book or not. Your plan would cost the same $30 as what they already do.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Digital compendium only is even cheaper at $20 (I assume we're basing the price point of this discussion on the PHB)
How to: Replace DEX in your AC | Jump & Suffocation stats | Build a (Spell & class effect buff system | Wild Shape effect system) | Tool Proficiencies as Custom Skills | Spells at higher levels explained | Superior Fighting/Martial Adept Fix | Snippet Codes Explored - Subclasses | Snippet Math Theory | Homebrew Weapons Explained
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Dndbeyond images not loading A PERMANENT WORKAROUND!!! (thank you Jay_Lane)
Doesn’t matter, they charge the same $30($20) for all books: PHB, DMG, MM, Mordenkainen’s, Volo’s, Xanathar’s, Tasha’s….
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB