Not to cause any contention, but it isn't fair to say to tell people to keep the debate centralized to one locations, but then lock the thread that you want the debate on. I know the arguments have been circular ad nausium, but you can't say you are open to hearing both sides while actively not allowing the debate to happen. It is either people can have the debate and a place be allowed for it, or it is the stance of not allowing the debate further.
I'm one of those who wish we paid for the content (electronic) once and then pay for tools like D&D Beyond and Roll20... But, I think everyone knows everything there is on this subject and maybe it should rest for a bit...
Not to cause any contention, but it isn't fair to say to tell people to keep the debate centralized to one locations, but then lock the thread that you want the debate on. I know the arguments have been circular ad nausium, but you can't say you are open to hearing both sides while actively not allowing the debate to happen. It is either people can have the debate and a place be allowed for it, or it is the stance of not allowing the debate further.
I'm one of those who wish we paid for the content (electronic) once and then pay for tools like D&D Beyond and Roll20... But, I think everyone knows everything there is on this subject and maybe it should rest for a bit...
teak
I personally believe that all valid arguments have been made, and any further would be fruitless. However my point was that telling someone to debate at location x, but not allowing debate at location x is a bit on the nose.
The conversation has been allowed for weeks, and the points have been made. These will be coming to a close as we redirect all to the closed thread.
Unfortunately, this isn't a debate being had with any appropriate party, but only bickering between opinions. I understand people may continue to have strong feelings on one side or the other, but the managerial and partnership decisions between Curse and WOTC have been made. The topic, as the thread, has been closed.
I understand that, and my comment isn't made to add to the debate. The issue I'm having here is that you are actively censoring the debate while having the face of promoting discussion. You only wasn't the debate to be on the one thread, which is fair. But you can not fairly criticize the debate popping up in other places if you have actively shut down the ability for discussion from happening.
I love dndbeyond. I've been on board since it's announcement and gladly pay for a very fair priced service, so this isn't just coming from someone with a bone to pick with dndbeyond. This is from someone that sees how the effective censorship of the discussion can be used as fuel for the dndbeyond hate. As a community we should show that we've nothing to fear from outside opinions.
I'd agree. Leave a thread open for people to post their misguided or ill-informed rants. Those of us here who understand the reasons being what they are just need to ignore them and have the willpower not to respond.
We had one thread open for that very purpose. The problem was it began to move past simple debate and conversation, into insults. At this point, we felt it was necessary to lock the thread. We aren't against conversation and debate. We don't even mind people who are anti-D&D Beyond. I want to make it very clear, we are not censoring anyone. There will come times when a thread has run its course and moved beyond the original intention, and that's when we close it down.
I'm still intrigued by the feedback that the character builder is difficult to use. From some of the earlier discussion in this thread it sounds like it's not necessarily that it's difficult to use, but different than what some people are used to/prefer. Personally, I find it the easiest character builder I've ever used, but I never used the 4E tools so I guess maybe that was better. I personally find DDB to be leagues better and easier than OrcPub (and MPMB, insofar as that's a character builder--which isn't exactly right).
This is the criticism that struck me as odd as well. Some background: I'm a pretty new player (started maybe 8 or so months ago) and my first experience was playing 2-3 sessions with a paper sheet and a pretty shitty DM. This resulted in me and my girlfriend starting our own campaign with a different group of friends with me DM'ing with quite literally no experience. DDB has been a miracle for me as I owned none of the content beforehand and can readily search through all the sources at once when I encounter something I don't know (which, being a new DM, is often). So far I've ran every single campaign I've done (on my third now) using DDB.
Anyways, back to the character builder being difficult criticism: I ran my first campaign (LMoP) with entirely players who had never played D&D before. Not a single one had any complaints about the character creator* (and after I showed them the normal paper sheets, they were happy I didn't go that route), *except for having to add starting equipment manually, but that was before the update. I've also ran another campaign with 2 experienced players and they enjoyed the ease of the character builder as well.
I'd agree. Leave a thread open for people to post their misguided or ill-informed rants. Those of us here who understand the reasons being what they are just need to ignore them and have the willpower not to respond.
The above says more about you then those "ill-informed" people you try to malign...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
I'm still intrigued by the feedback that the character builder is difficult to use. From some of the earlier discussion in this thread it sounds like it's not necessarily that it's difficult to use, but different than what some people are used to/prefer. Personally, I find it the easiest character builder I've ever used, but I never used the 4E tools so I guess maybe that was better. I personally find DDB to be leagues better and easier than OrcPub (and MPMB, insofar as that's a character builder--which isn't exactly right).
This is the criticism that struck me as odd as well. Some background: I'm a pretty new player (started maybe 8 or so months ago) and my first experience was playing 2-3 sessions with a paper sheet and a pretty shitty DM. This resulted in me and my girlfriend starting our own campaign with a different group of friends with me DM'ing with quite literally no experience. DDB has been a miracle for me as I owned none of the content beforehand and can readily search through all the sources at once when I encounter something I don't know (which, being a new DM, is often). So far I've ran every single campaign I've done (on my third now) using DDB.
Anyways, back to the character builder being difficult criticism: I ran my first campaign (LMoP) with entirely players who had never played D&D before. Not a single one had any complaints about the character creator* (and after I showed them the normal paper sheets, they were happy I didn't go that route), *except for having to add starting equipment manually, but that was before the update. I've also ran another campaign with 2 experienced players and they enjoyed the ease of the character builder as well.
I agree. The character creator is actually very useful... Also a new(er) player...
teak
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
I'd agree. Leave a thread open for people to post their misguided or ill-informed rants. Those of us here who understand the reasons being what they are just need to ignore them and have the willpower not to respond.
The above says more about you then those "ill-informed" people you try to malign...
Not at all. Many of the first time posters come in with complaints based on an incomplete understanding of the pricing structure here for example, or don't understand (or want to accept) how IP and copyright law work, forcing WotC to defend their IP and go after things like OrcPub or MPMB. Meaningful discussion can be had once they are more educated on the hows and whys, and sometimes that has steered the conversation to more productive things that Curse actually has some control over and can be used to improve Beyond. It's only when they continue to argue that WotC protecting their copyright, or Curse needing to charge for their work here against all logic or reason, because dammit they are NOT going to "pay again" for this essential service that the insults and argument spin out of control. Pointing that out isn't "maligning" anyone, unless they are looking for ways to be insulted.
Ok, simple fact - we will ALWAYS support the rights of all of our users to post about their concerns or complaints, same as we will allow other users to discuss those concerns with them.
All we ask is that you all behave and treat other users with respect, even if their views don't match your own.
We understand that it can be infuriating when something seems really obvious to you, but others won't accept it - but please understand we will issue formal warnings if people conduct themselves poorly and insult others.
It saddens us, as moderators, when we feel we have to delete or lock down a thread. It's not something we do lightly and in almost all cases it is only after discussion between multiple moderators on alternatives.
I'd agree. Leave a thread open for people to post their misguided or ill-informed rants. Those of us here who understand the reasons being what they are just need to ignore them and have the willpower not to respond.
The above says more about you then those "ill-informed" people you try to malign...
Not at all. Many of the first time posters come in with complaints based on an incomplete understanding of the pricing structure here for example, or don't understand (or want to accept) how IP and copyright law work, forcing WotC to defend their IP and go after things like OrcPub or MPMB. Meaningful discussion can be had once they are more educated on the hows and whys, and sometimes that has steered the conversation to more productive things that Curse actually has some control over and can be used to improve Beyond. It's only when they continue to argue that WotC protecting their copyright, or Curse needing to charge for their work here against all logic or reason, because dammit they are NOT going to "pay again" for this essential service that the insults and argument spin out of control. Pointing that out isn't "maligning" anyone, unless they are looking for ways to be insulted.
I believe that I can make an argument (one that you most likely will disagree with) that its best to purchase electronic content (PHB, Volos, etc.) ONCE. And, that tools like DDB and Roll20 should also get paid for their awesome services. I am not ill-informed nor am I ranting... I have an opinion... People have them. Do not be so quick to dismiss people who's opinion is different than yours.
teak
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
I believe that I can make an argument (one that you most likely will disagree with) that its best to purchase electronic content (PHB, Volos, etc.) ONCE. And, that tools like DDB and Roll20 should also get paid for their awesome services. I am not ill-informed nor am I ranting... I have an opinion... People have them. Do not be so quick to dismiss people who's opinion is different than yours.
teak
Again, it seems you are looking for insult here were none was intended. You certainly are entitled to your opinion, and I don't disagree. I would hope that in this age of a worldwide digital marketplace, that WotC could someday find a way to work with all their digital partners, current and future, to come to a solution that benefits everyone - providers and consumers. I've seen other posts from you and realize that YOU do know the facts here, are understandably unhappy with the status quo, and are trying to have some meaningful discussion about it. We aren't on the opposite sides of the fence here, just not quite on the same page, I think. I'm not dismissing anyone merely for a difference of opinion, so long as that opinion is based on facts.
My point is that there is a difference between someone coming in with a complaint based on their misunderstanding how things have to work based on the current system and agreements who can be informed of the facts and then still have a real conversation, even if they are still not happy about it, and those who just rant and slam Curse as if it's all their fault and they are just milking us to fatten their wallets, and refuse to understand that much of this is out of their hands.
In means of conversing about the closed thread, the last few posts have already started to mimic the reason of its closure. This is why the thread will remain closed, and why topic has taken its course of discussion. If it is chosen to continue here, this thread will follow suit.
I think the Biggest issue is for some reason people think they have to COMPLETELY BUY THE BOOKS AGAIN to use the Character Creator features (#2 as you listed them).
"(or re-purchase) of content even when they don't want the digital goods - they just want to create their character using the source book on their desk..."
You absolutely can just buy just the character options, VERY CHEAPLY, without the rest of the Digital content. Don't Buy Volo's again. Buy the Class and Subclass packages for just a few dollars., Etc.
Maybe I am mistaken here, but from reading through multiple forum posts and seeing the same complaint of "I don't want to have to buy the book again", it seems to me that D&DBeyond's best solution is to better market and clarify the fact that Character builder features can be separate from the sourcebooks.
Maybe I am mistaken here, but from reading through multiple forum posts and seeing the same complaint of "I don't want to have to buy the book again", it seems to me that D&DBeyond's best solution is to better market and clarify the fact that Character builder features can be separate from the sourcebooks.
And that they aren't a waste of money long term; the full book is discounted by however much you've paid for its individual components already. The Additional Purchase Options section really should mention this!
Yeah, get Todd or someone to do an updated "Welcome to DNDBeyond, here's what we offer!" video that includes something like "A Master tier subscription allows you to share all purchased content with the players in your campaign. And if you already own a hardcover Xanathar's guide to Everything but want you player's to be able to use all the cool new spells on the character builders, then you can Buy the XGtE Spell package for $5!"
Put it right on the homepage and stickied at the top of the forums (pretty much every subforum because the Pricing discussion seems to pop up everywhere)
Yeah, get Todd or someone to do an updated "Welcome to DNDBeyond, here's what we offer!" video that includes something like "A Master tier subscription allows you to share all purchased content with the players in your campaign. And if you already own a hardcover Xanathar's guide to Everything but want you player's to be able to use all the cool new spells on the character builders, then you can Buy the XGtE Spell package for $5!"
Put it right on the homepage and stickied at the top of the forums (pretty much every subforum because the Pricing discussion seems to pop up everywhere)
I'm still intrigued by the feedback that the character builder is difficult to use. From some of the earlier discussion in this thread it sounds like it's not necessarily that it's difficult to use, but different than what some people are used to/prefer. Personally, I find it the easiest character builder I've ever used, but I never used the 4E tools so I guess maybe that was better. I personally find DDB to be leagues better and easier than OrcPub (and MPMB, insofar as that's a character builder--which isn't exactly right).
This is the criticism that struck me as odd as well. Some background: I'm a pretty new player (started maybe 8 or so months ago) and my first experience was playing 2-3 sessions with a paper sheet and a pretty shitty DM. This resulted in me and my girlfriend starting our own campaign with a different group of friends with me DM'ing with quite literally no experience. DDB has been a miracle for me as I owned none of the content beforehand and can readily search through all the sources at once when I encounter something I don't know (which, being a new DM, is often). So far I've ran every single campaign I've done (on my third now) using DDB.
Anyways, back to the character builder being difficult criticism: I ran my first campaign (LMoP) with entirely players who had never played D&D before. Not a single one had any complaints about the character creator* (and after I showed them the normal paper sheets, they were happy I didn't go that route), *except for having to add starting equipment manually, but that was before the update. I've also ran another campaign with 2 experienced players and they enjoyed the ease of the character builder as well.
I agree. The character creator is actually very useful... Also a new(er) player...
teak
That is kind of the point. The character builder is good for new players. For those of us who aren't new and just want a quick, efficient way to automatically add the information from books we own to a character sheet, MPMB ID leagues ahead. And when we say "hey, many of us want something like this", we quickly get called names and implied that our opinions are invalid.
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I think that one was locked because it was essentially the same discussion going on in this one, which is still open.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/d-d-beyond-feedback/5743-d-d-beyond-pricing-purchase-faq-discussion
The conversation has been allowed for weeks, and the points have been made. These will be coming to a close as we redirect all to the closed thread.
Unfortunately, this isn't a debate being had with any appropriate party, but only bickering between opinions. I understand people may continue to have strong feelings on one side or the other, but the managerial and partnership decisions between Curse and WOTC have been made. The topic, as the thread, has been closed.
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I understand that, and my comment isn't made to add to the debate. The issue I'm having here is that you are actively censoring the debate while having the face of promoting discussion. You only wasn't the debate to be on the one thread, which is fair. But you can not fairly criticize the debate popping up in other places if you have actively shut down the ability for discussion from happening.
I love dndbeyond. I've been on board since it's announcement and gladly pay for a very fair priced service, so this isn't just coming from someone with a bone to pick with dndbeyond. This is from someone that sees how the effective censorship of the discussion can be used as fuel for the dndbeyond hate. As a community we should show that we've nothing to fear from outside opinions.
I'd agree. Leave a thread open for people to post their misguided or ill-informed rants. Those of us here who understand the reasons being what they are just need to ignore them and have the willpower not to respond.
We had one thread open for that very purpose. The problem was it began to move past simple debate and conversation, into insults. At this point, we felt it was necessary to lock the thread. We aren't against conversation and debate. We don't even mind people who are anti-D&D Beyond. I want to make it very clear, we are not censoring anyone. There will come times when a thread has run its course and moved beyond the original intention, and that's when we close it down.
A dwarf with a canoe on his back? What could go wrong?
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
Ok, simple fact - we will ALWAYS support the rights of all of our users to post about their concerns or complaints, same as we will allow other users to discuss those concerns with them.
All we ask is that you all behave and treat other users with respect, even if their views don't match your own.
We understand that it can be infuriating when something seems really obvious to you, but others won't accept it - but please understand we will issue formal warnings if people conduct themselves poorly and insult others.
It saddens us, as moderators, when we feel we have to delete or lock down a thread. It's not something we do lightly and in almost all cases it is only after discussion between multiple moderators on alternatives.
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
In means of conversing about the closed thread, the last few posts have already started to mimic the reason of its closure. This is why the thread will remain closed, and why topic has taken its course of discussion. If it is chosen to continue here, this thread will follow suit.
[ Site Rules & Guidelines ] --- [ Homebrew Rules & Guidelines ]
Send me a message with any questions or concerns
I think the Biggest issue is for some reason people think they have to COMPLETELY BUY THE BOOKS AGAIN to use the Character Creator features (#2 as you listed them).
"(or re-purchase) of content even when they don't want the digital goods - they just want to create their character using the source book on their desk..."
You absolutely can just buy just the character options, VERY CHEAPLY, without the rest of the Digital content. Don't Buy Volo's again. Buy the Class and Subclass packages for just a few dollars., Etc.
Maybe I am mistaken here, but from reading through multiple forum posts and seeing the same complaint of "I don't want to have to buy the book again", it seems to me that D&DBeyond's best solution is to better market and clarify the fact that Character builder features can be separate from the sourcebooks.
Yeah, get Todd or someone to do an updated "Welcome to DNDBeyond, here's what we offer!" video that includes something like "A Master tier subscription allows you to share all purchased content with the players in your campaign. And if you already own a hardcover Xanathar's guide to Everything but want you player's to be able to use all the cool new spells on the character builders, then you can Buy the XGtE Spell package for $5!"
Put it right on the homepage and stickied at the top of the forums (pretty much every subforum because the Pricing discussion seems to pop up everywhere)
And I cast Heroism on the community.