As is often the case with Social media and forums of any sort, often it is the vocal minority that believes they are in the right.
Too often is the case, however, that for every loud negative response that exists, there are multiple people who are happy with something, and feel no need to comment.
Remember, that this is a small snapshot of the community and users in general.
We don't need to play semantics, ultimately we are after the same thing. Instead of the griping over something that you don't like, please, please, provide some feedback as to how it could be better.
We are currently receiving far more positive feedback about the menus than negative...
I see you say this very often whenever criticisms are brought up on any feature and yet, visibly, it seems that the opposite is true. Where is all this positive feedback you're getting that is hidden from our view?
I see you criticize my honest engagement to criticism very often in kind. It seems true that you want to pick a fight.
Not everything is about you.
I give praise for things I think are deserving of praise and criticise things I think are deserving of criticism. That you only focus on the negative in that equation is a function of your personal issues, not mine. The evidence that I operate like this is throughout my entire post history where I have both praised and criticised various things about DDB. All I am asking for, is the evidence of your assertions, because you make this argument very often in response to criticisms. If you are seeing and quantifying a majority, I am simply saying that this majority is not visible to the rest of us; the rest of us are seeing a majority of negative criticisms, not positive praise. Which has been the case with almost every issue where you've countered with, "Our feedback is very positive on this..." style of claim.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
I see you criticize my honest engagement to criticism very often in kind. It seems true that you want to pick a fight.
Not everything is about you.
I give praise for things I think are deserving of praise and criticise things I think are deserving of criticism. That you only focus on the negative in that equation is a function of your personal issues, not mine. The evidence that I operate like this is throughout my entire post history where I have both praised and criticised various things about DDB. All I am asking for, is the evidence of your assertions, because you make this argument very often in response to criticisms. If you are seeing and quantifying a majority, I am simply saying that this majority is not visible to the rest of us; the rest of us are seeing a majority of negative criticisms, not positive praise. Which has been the case with almost every issue where you've countered with, "Our feedback is very positive on this..." style of claim.
Having read your responses in the past, they do come off as a bit hostile sometimes, FYI. This one included in that.
Having read your responses in the past, they do come off as a bit hostile sometimes, FYI. This one included in that.
That's a subjective measure based on an assumption. Nothing in my textual language is hostile. My death, as the author of these words, not withstanding.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
As a relatively new user to DnD Beyond. Had an account for a while but until recently haven't really used it. I and my players after a few weeks had just got use to the old menus and now it changes. Personally I liked the drop down's made making homebrew and or selecting specific thing's like monsters spells classes easier. Going to classes over to make homebrew with one click was far more user friendly imho. Now we got giant pictures and multiple clicks to get to any thing taking more time then really necessary. I get most don't like change but i feel like this is a real bad step in the wrong direction. I don't see why Drop down menus had to be gotten rid off.
Having read your responses in the past, they do come off as a bit hostile sometimes, FYI. This one included in that.
That's a subjective measure based on an assumption. Nothing in my textual language is hostile. My death, as the author of these words, not withstanding.
Okay. Well, I'm telling you that based on the content of your posts, you are coming off as hostile. Part of that may be subjective on my part, but I think you should at least consider that saying something like, "That you only focus on the negative in that equation is a function of your personal issues, not mine" sounds pretty aggressive. I'm not trying to egg you on, I'm just pointing out that you may want to consider the way you phrase things.
Anyway, I'm just a sample size of one, but despite my one complaint about the new layout, I think it looks spiffy.
As a relatively new user to DnD Beyond. Had an account for a while but until recently haven't really used it. I and my players after a few weeks had just got use to the old menus and now it changes. Personally I liked the drop down's made making homebrew and or selecting specific thing's like monsters spells classes easier. Going to classes over to make homebrew with one click was far more user friendly imho. Now we got giant pictures and multiple clicks to get to any thing taking more time then really necessary. I get most don't like change but i feel like this is a real bad step in the wrong direction. I don't see why Drop down menus had to be gotten rid off.
I address the primary reason the dropdown menus were a problem for so many people in the changelog entry for this update - the tendency for the mouse to "slip off" the menus was reported regularly as frustrating.
Reading between the lines of your thoughts here, it looks like the issue is along the lines of "I want to click once to get to [insert specific area like homebrew subclasses here]," and that's valid feedback that we can use. While we will not be able to include every element in the menu feasibly, especially since we'll be adding so much to the navigation in the future, we will attempt to surface as much as we can.
After the first day of feedback, we have some themes forming that we will be working through in the next several days. One of those things is where we stripped things down to hover over the top level elements and click in this first pass, we might be able to hit most of the bell curve by incorporating a second level on second hover. We're going to see what we can do.
Everything's a trade-off. If "number of clicks" is your primary measurement of UX quality, then yes, this is worse. However if "number of times I've been trying to move my mouse through the nested menus along the rather small targets and moved the pointer too far and WHOOPS now I've gotta start over" is your primary measurement, then this is quite a lot better.
Other trade-offs that are happening include which material you put at users' fingertips and which you push farther down. You can't put everything front and center, and trying to do so creates clutter. The previous menus treated all books as equally prominent, a choice that makes less and less sense as the amount of D&D content grows. The Tortle Package does not require equal prominence to Xanathar's Guide to Everything, as delightful a supplement as it is.
I think this becomes the most noticeable when we're looking at adventures. If you're a player, you want the adventures section to be as out of the way as possible. You're only really going to be looking at the rule books. If you're a DM running Waterdeep Dragon Heist, then you want that adventure as accessible as possible. How do you balance the needs of those two groups?
I've long since found my own solution for quick access to the random stuff that I happen to find important: I've bookmarked the things I like in my browser. I think implementing something similar in the site might not be a bad idea.
I personally don't care for the sliding gallery menu approach on Sources. Seems like the 'pretty but less useful' tendency that is becoming more common these days, but I do understand that as site architecture becomes deeper and broader, you simply cannot please all of the people all of the time.
Is it possible to introduce a mechanism for users to favourite/bookmark pages or areas of the site in some way?
Thanks for all the work that has gone into making the new menu structure. I like the way that most of it looks, except for the sources page. I found it much easier with the adventures separated from the rule books.
Would we ever see a new "My dndbeyond" menu, where we can customise any pages we want to go on it? so I could add the players handbook, monster manual, the current adventure, link to characters and link to current campaign all in the same menu.
I found the old menu very nice to use. Sure it wasn't very stylish but it made up for that by showing a good deal of information without taking up anymore space than was necessary.
The issue i'm currently having with the Sources menu is that the amount of options available for me to view and select at any given time is (or at least feels) significantly lower than the old system. Probably due to the fact that the menus are currently restricted to a set amount of vertical space rather than being able to expand down the page. The style of the menu itself is also different from the other new menus (which aren't too bad - although I miss being able to select specific classes directly from the menu).
As a UX researcher I'll try to add my 2 cents here to help provide context to some of the problems being posted here.
It seems several new problems have been created by the layout, while it may test better to new users, it does seem to increase task time to navigate by increasing the distance between clicksT compared to the previous organizational hierarchy. The new layout also uses a carousel to display more than 4-5 items, while published research shows it increases search time and error rate as well as increasing cognitive load for users, so I am surprised to hear it tests well.
The last point I see is the break in mental model for UI categories and logic, for example there is a category for "Rule Books" but it doesn't include the 2 most referenced rules (e.g. player handbook, dungeon Masters guide). Instead, it contains search libraries (e.g. spells, items, equipment, etc..), classes, and races, which seem more informational than rules.
I would be interested in learning more about the methods that were used to test it with users.
With all due respect and every intent of kindness, you are attempting to provide context while missing much of the context you would need to do so.
That said, we knew going into this release today that the Sources menu tested the most ambiguous of everything we tried. Given that, we elected to move forward with our best guess and allow feedback from the broader community to shape its eventual form.
We develop internally with the idea always in mind "if you're going to fail, fail fast." We rapidly iterate internally and we have made it a part of our strategy to release things earlier to the community this year where we can get feedback quicker to overall save development time.
We appreciate and are paying attention to all the feedback in this thread, particularly if it is specific and actionable (things like "zomg it's terribad" is neither of those by the way). We will absolutely make course corrections and get the menu as usable as we possibly can for the largest portion of the community as possible while also accomplishing our goals to be appropriately set up for all the things that are going to start happening on DDB this year.
Thanks!
I agree, particularly the part about actionable feedback. I do think this layout fixes the major problems identified with the old layout. It is also introducing new problems which are being magnified due to the break in mental models for locations of frequently used portions of the UI. I think there can be a happy ground between hover errors (old layout) and navigational distance (new layout).
That being said, without looking at data I am not sure what the actual user groups are for the website, but I imagine most are frequent/power users. What I am finding is that accessing portions of the layout on the right side of game rules and creations, as well as any sourcebook not on the front of the carousel is taking more time than before. Some of that will be mitigated through learning the new layout, but other aspects such as the distance the mouse needs to travel in order to click (e.g. my campaigns) has increased compared to the old layout.
I mean this is the nicest way possible, with simply the eyes of someone who identifies problems all day. As a passionate user of DDB, I only want to provide feedback which can be investigated further.
Would agree like the thought of mega menu’s , but to get to Some books You need to click many times if its at the end of the row
In care you're not aware, you can scroll through the menu to access additional books, instead of clicking.
This is actually a very functionally important piece of information for quick navigation, but I think most users would not intuitively understand that as a capability based on the look of the carousel. Indicating this possibility through iconography or text may help alleviate some users concerns when using a mouse.
I'm a huge supporter of D&D Beyond. I vehemently defend the platform online whenever "how come i can't redeem my paper books?!" gets brought up once again. I've had the Legendary Bundle and Master Tier subscription since day one, and I've bought every product except the new tactical maps. I use DnDB every session in place of my hardcopy books. I say all that upfront to establish that I'm not just some whiny naysayer who will poo-poo everything DnDB does.
I like the change for "Game Rules", "Creations", and "Tools".
I really dislike this change for "Sources". It looks to me like it was designed by a UI person rather than a UX person; that is to say it looks good, but it doesn't feel good. It's not intuitive. It takes more clicks/scrolling to reach things. The scrolling feels unnatural (many apparently don't even realize they can scroll, which should serve as an indication).
If "Sources" listed everything on one dropdown, or split rulebooks and adventures as before, I think the redesign would be getting much better reaction.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
As is often the case with Social media and forums of any sort, often it is the vocal minority that believes they are in the right.
Too often is the case, however, that for every loud negative response that exists, there are multiple people who are happy with something, and feel no need to comment.
Remember, that this is a small snapshot of the community and users in general.
We don't need to play semantics, ultimately we are after the same thing. Instead of the griping over something that you don't like, please, please, provide some feedback as to how it could be better.
- Stu
#6321 on Discord.
Right here. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/33282-legendary-bundle-still-costs#c4
Thank you for your interest. Now please keep your posts on topic, per Site Rules & Guidelines. Everything else is expected to be taken to PMs.
[ Site Rules & Guidelines ] --- [ Homebrew Rules & Guidelines ]
Send me a message with any questions or concerns
Not everything is about you.
I give praise for things I think are deserving of praise and criticise things I think are deserving of criticism. That you only focus on the negative in that equation is a function of your personal issues, not mine. The evidence that I operate like this is throughout my entire post history where I have both praised and criticised various things about DDB. All I am asking for, is the evidence of your assertions, because you make this argument very often in response to criticisms. If you are seeing and quantifying a majority, I am simply saying that this majority is not visible to the rest of us; the rest of us are seeing a majority of negative criticisms, not positive praise. Which has been the case with almost every issue where you've countered with, "Our feedback is very positive on this..." style of claim.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Having read your responses in the past, they do come off as a bit hostile sometimes, FYI. This one included in that.
-Dresden White
That's a subjective measure based on an assumption. Nothing in my textual language is hostile. My death, as the author of these words, not withstanding.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
As a relatively new user to DnD Beyond. Had an account for a while but until recently haven't really used it. I and my players after a few weeks had just got use to the old menus and now it changes. Personally I liked the drop down's made making homebrew and or selecting specific thing's like monsters spells classes easier. Going to classes over to make homebrew with one click was far more user friendly imho. Now we got giant pictures and multiple clicks to get to any thing taking more time then really necessary. I get most don't like change but i feel like this is a real bad step in the wrong direction. I don't see why Drop down menus had to be gotten rid off.
Okay. Well, I'm telling you that based on the content of your posts, you are coming off as hostile. Part of that may be subjective on my part, but I think you should at least consider that saying something like, "That you only focus on the negative in that equation is a function of your personal issues, not mine" sounds pretty aggressive. I'm not trying to egg you on, I'm just pointing out that you may want to consider the way you phrase things.
Anyway, I'm just a sample size of one, but despite my one complaint about the new layout, I think it looks spiffy.
-Dresden White
I address the primary reason the dropdown menus were a problem for so many people in the changelog entry for this update - the tendency for the mouse to "slip off" the menus was reported regularly as frustrating.
Reading between the lines of your thoughts here, it looks like the issue is along the lines of "I want to click once to get to [insert specific area like homebrew subclasses here]," and that's valid feedback that we can use. While we will not be able to include every element in the menu feasibly, especially since we'll be adding so much to the navigation in the future, we will attempt to surface as much as we can.
After the first day of feedback, we have some themes forming that we will be working through in the next several days. One of those things is where we stripped things down to hover over the top level elements and click in this first pass, we might be able to hit most of the bell curve by incorporating a second level on second hover. We're going to see what we can do.
Thanks!
Would agree like the thought of mega menu’s , but to get to Some books You need to click many times if its at the end of the row
Everything's a trade-off. If "number of clicks" is your primary measurement of UX quality, then yes, this is worse. However if "number of times I've been trying to move my mouse through the nested menus along the rather small targets and moved the pointer too far and WHOOPS now I've gotta start over" is your primary measurement, then this is quite a lot better.
Other trade-offs that are happening include which material you put at users' fingertips and which you push farther down. You can't put everything front and center, and trying to do so creates clutter. The previous menus treated all books as equally prominent, a choice that makes less and less sense as the amount of D&D content grows. The Tortle Package does not require equal prominence to Xanathar's Guide to Everything, as delightful a supplement as it is.
I think this becomes the most noticeable when we're looking at adventures. If you're a player, you want the adventures section to be as out of the way as possible. You're only really going to be looking at the rule books. If you're a DM running Waterdeep Dragon Heist, then you want that adventure as accessible as possible. How do you balance the needs of those two groups?
I've long since found my own solution for quick access to the random stuff that I happen to find important: I've bookmarked the things I like in my browser. I think implementing something similar in the site might not be a bad idea.
Regarding mobile, I like how source books and adventures are split up. However can they please be ordered alphabetically?
As a more often player rather than dm who also doesn’t use home brew very often the extra navigation to get to my characters is inconvenient
I personally don't care for the sliding gallery menu approach on Sources. Seems like the 'pretty but less useful' tendency that is becoming more common these days, but I do understand that as site architecture becomes deeper and broader, you simply cannot please all of the people all of the time.
Is it possible to introduce a mechanism for users to favourite/bookmark pages or areas of the site in some way?
Thanks for all the work that has gone into making the new menu structure. I like the way that most of it looks, except for the sources page. I found it much easier with the adventures separated from the rule books.
Would we ever see a new "My dndbeyond" menu, where we can customise any pages we want to go on it? so I could add the players handbook, monster manual, the current adventure, link to characters and link to current campaign all in the same menu.
Interesting update.
I found the old menu very nice to use. Sure it wasn't very stylish but it made up for that by showing a good deal of information without taking up anymore space than was necessary.
The issue i'm currently having with the Sources menu is that the amount of options available for me to view and select at any given time is (or at least feels) significantly lower than the old system. Probably due to the fact that the menus are currently restricted to a set amount of vertical space rather than being able to expand down the page. The style of the menu itself is also different from the other new menus (which aren't too bad - although I miss being able to select specific classes directly from the menu).
I agree, particularly the part about actionable feedback. I do think this layout fixes the major problems identified with the old layout. It is also introducing new problems which are being magnified due to the break in mental models for locations of frequently used portions of the UI. I think there can be a happy ground between hover errors (old layout) and navigational distance (new layout).
That being said, without looking at data I am not sure what the actual user groups are for the website, but I imagine most are frequent/power users. What I am finding is that accessing portions of the layout on the right side of game rules and creations, as well as any sourcebook not on the front of the carousel is taking more time than before. Some of that will be mitigated through learning the new layout, but other aspects such as the distance the mouse needs to travel in order to click (e.g. my campaigns) has increased compared to the old layout.
I mean this is the nicest way possible, with simply the eyes of someone who identifies problems all day. As a passionate user of DDB, I only want to provide feedback which can be investigated further.
In care you're not aware, you can scroll through the menu to access additional books, instead of clicking.
A dwarf with a canoe on his back? What could go wrong?
This is actually a very functionally important piece of information for quick navigation, but I think most users would not intuitively understand that as a capability based on the look of the carousel. Indicating this possibility through iconography or text may help alleviate some users concerns when using a mouse.
The new look is slick. I'm sure it took a ton of work and I appreciate your team trying to make our user experiences fun and functional.
I'm a huge supporter of D&D Beyond. I vehemently defend the platform online whenever "how come i can't redeem my paper books?!" gets brought up once again. I've had the Legendary Bundle and Master Tier subscription since day one, and I've bought every product except the new tactical maps. I use DnDB every session in place of my hardcopy books. I say all that upfront to establish that I'm not just some whiny naysayer who will poo-poo everything DnDB does.
I like the change for "Game Rules", "Creations", and "Tools".
I really dislike this change for "Sources". It looks to me like it was designed by a UI person rather than a UX person; that is to say it looks good, but it doesn't feel good. It's not intuitive. It takes more clicks/scrolling to reach things. The scrolling feels unnatural (many apparently don't even realize they can scroll, which should serve as an indication).
If "Sources" listed everything on one dropdown, or split rulebooks and adventures as before, I think the redesign would be getting much better reaction.