Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
I'm only accessing the webpage from a PC, but I don't get what all this "clicking" is about? I'm DM'ing two campaigns: Out of the Abyss and Lost Mines of Phandelver. Getting to either of them is pan mouse, scroll, 1 click. Done.
Before it was pan mouse, pan mouse, pan mouse, click. Done.
Not seeing the difference. And getting to see the art with the titles? Thumbs up from me.
As a UX researcher I'll try to add my 2 cents here to help provide context to some of the problems being posted here.
It seems several new problems have been created by the layout, while it may test better to new users, it does seem to increase task time to navigate by increasing the distance between clicksT compared to the previous organizational hierarchy. The new layout also uses a carousel to display more than 4-5 items, while published research shows it increases search time and error rate as well as increasing cognitive load for users, so I am surprised to hear it tests well.
The last point I see is the break in mental model for UI categories and logic, for example there is a category for "Rule Books" but it doesn't include the 2 most referenced rules (e.g. player handbook, dungeon Masters guide). Instead, it contains search libraries (e.g. spells, items, equipment, etc..), classes, and races, which seem more informational than rules.
I would be interested in learning more about the methods that were used to test it with users.
I mean, after getting over the initial shock my only major complaint is that the sources menu is horrifying. It almost feels like I have to guess where I think the sourcebook would be (on pc) and then give up and just search what I think I wanted.
edit:commenting on the memory of a ui that is changing is generally a bad idea :/. Sorry badeye
Clicking on a word? Fine. Having to click on giant pictures, to then scroll through other pictures, to find pictures, that have words on them? Not ok. It used to be small and compact, which was extremely nice to have, especially for someone with a brain that sometimes has trouble remembering what the hell i was even looking for to begin with. Having that as a toggle option would be super handy. i don't need big pretty pictures, i just need quick easy clicks.
I mean, after getting over the initial shock my only major complaint is that the sources menu is horrifying. It almost feels like I have to guess where I think the sourcebook would be (on mobile and pc) and then give up and just search what I think I wanted.
We see a theme regarding the Sources menu in the feedback, and we will make some adjustments to it in the coming days.
We also already added back each individual book to the mobile menu, so I am curious why you mention "on mobile and pc" - the mobile experience is literally the same as it was before the change with the exception that "Rules" has been renamed "Sourcebooks" (since sourcebook is a much more appropriate word given the nature of recent D&D releases).
Does this "temporary issue" also refer to the hover over menu system? The change necessitates clicking through several pages instead of just hovering down to the page you want directly. Hoping this is also going to be remedied.
I’d love to hear what somebody who uses a screenreader, if this layout is better or worse for them. I play largely on an iPad, so this change doesn’t effect me too much yet, but I agree that I preferred having multiple dropdowns, and that they just needed to be improved in terms of mouseover precision - which may have been why lots of people didn’t use their lower layers, rather than not wanting to. I have enough of the pages that I use a lot in my browser history so I don’t anticipate using the menu a lot (but when I do, it tends to be for a deep dive, because all the top level things are in my browser history).
As a UX researcher I'll try to add my 2 cents here to help provide context to some of the problems being posted here.
It seems several new problems have been created by the layout, while it may test better to new users, it does seem to increase task time to navigate by increasing the distance between clicksT compared to the previous organizational hierarchy. The new layout also uses a carousel to display more than 4-5 items, while published research shows it increases search time and error rate as well as increasing cognitive load for users, so I am surprised to hear it tests well.
The last point I see is the break in mental model for UI categories and logic, for example there is a category for "Rule Books" but it doesn't include the 2 most referenced rules (e.g. player handbook, dungeon Masters guide). Instead, it contains search libraries (e.g. spells, items, equipment, etc..), classes, and races, which seem more informational than rules.
I would be interested in learning more about the methods that were used to test it with users.
With all due respect and every intent of kindness, you are attempting to provide context while missing much of the context you would need to do so.
That said, we knew going into this release today that the Sources menu tested the most ambiguous of everything we tried. Given that, we elected to move forward with our best guess and allow feedback from the broader community to shape its eventual form.
We develop internally with the idea always in mind "if you're going to fail, fail fast." We rapidly iterate internally and we have made it a part of our strategy to release things earlier to the community this year where we can get feedback quicker to overall save development time.
We appreciate and are paying attention to all the feedback in this thread, particularly if it is specific and actionable (things like "zomg it's terribad" is neither of those by the way). We will absolutely make course corrections and get the menu as usable as we possibly can for the largest portion of the community as possible while also accomplishing our goals to be appropriately set up for all the things that are going to start happening on DDB this year.
Are you also paying attention to the feedback on the Changelog update for this? You probably are, but want to check because some very good points have been raised there by multiple members as well.
Are you also paying attention to the feedback on the Changelog update for this? You probably are, but want to check because some very good points have been raised there by multiple members as well.
He has been responding there as well.
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I also wanted to raise how long it takes to get to actual Adventure content as a serious problem. I'm running Rise of Tiamat and it now takes me a mouseover and 4 clicks to get there, and it is not at all intuitive, since the sources aren't clearly ordered.
I actually like the new layout, with one small caveat.
I do think adventure books and rule books should be discrete from each other in some way. The best way I can think of if possible would be to have the sources item open two separate rows that you can side-scroll independently of each other.
But other than that small suggestion, I think it looks really great.
We are currently receiving far more positive feedback about the menus than negative...
I see you say this very often whenever criticisms are brought up on any feature and yet, visibly, it seems that the opposite is true. Where is all this positive feedback you're getting that is hidden from our view?
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
I agree with most of the comments. I use D&D Beyond when I play, and am often toggling between the adventure I'm running and the different rulebooks. Before it was quick and easy to navigate to which adventure you wanted. Now it takes far longer, and is more difficult to do. Small visible lists that can be easily scanned by eye are so much quicker than having to scroll through large photos to find the right screen, and then to click on the right one.
We are currently receiving far more positive feedback about the menus than negative...
I see you say this very often whenever criticisms are brought up on any feature and yet, visibly, it seems that the opposite is true. Where is all this positive feedback you're getting that is hidden from our view?
I see you criticize my honest engagement to criticism very often in kind. It seems true that you want to pick a fight.
However, I'm willing to extend an optimistic benefit of the doubt to you and imagine that you aren't just simply trying to be contrary because I understand that I don't have access to all the information you have access to and I don't fully understand your context.
The forums are a single input for feedback and are not - generally - representative of the broader community. This makes a good deal of sense given that forums use across the tech landscape has declined a great deal in the last 10 years as other platforms have emerged (social media, chat applications, Reddit, etc.).
I (personally) like forums quite a bit, and appreciate the input that we do receive here, but the truth is it's still a small part of the overall community. I am also pretty keen on the idea that those participating on the forums really like D&D and D&D Beyond, which is why I spend time replying to posts like this.
I’d love to hear what somebody who uses a screenreader, if this layout is better or worse for them. I play largely on an iPad, so this change doesn’t effect me too much yet, but I agree that I preferred having multiple dropdowns, and that they just needed to be improved in terms of mouseover precision - which may have been why lots of people didn’t use their lower layers, rather than not wanting to. I have enough of the pages that I use a lot in my browser history so I don’t anticipate using the menu a lot (but when I do, it tends to be for a deep dive, because all the top level things are in my browser history).
We are working closely with the DOTS RPG group, and the early feedback is that the mega menu has improved accessibility via a screen reader from the previous menu structure. However, we are fully aware we have much more to do to get where we want to be with it.
We will continue to work with DOTS to make that happen.
Thanks!
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I will say, I don't care too much for the new layout. However, I can respect how nice it looks. There's just something clean about it.
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Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
I absolutely abhor the new layout.
I'm only accessing the webpage from a PC, but I don't get what all this "clicking" is about? I'm DM'ing two campaigns: Out of the Abyss and Lost Mines of Phandelver. Getting to either of them is pan mouse, scroll, 1 click. Done.
Before it was pan mouse, pan mouse, pan mouse, click. Done.
Not seeing the difference. And getting to see the art with the titles? Thumbs up from me.
As a UX researcher I'll try to add my 2 cents here to help provide context to some of the problems being posted here.
It seems several new problems have been created by the layout, while it may test better to new users, it does seem to increase task time to navigate by increasing the distance between clicksT compared to the previous organizational hierarchy. The new layout also uses a carousel to display more than 4-5 items, while published research shows it increases search time and error rate as well as increasing cognitive load for users, so I am surprised to hear it tests well.
The last point I see is the break in mental model for UI categories and logic, for example there is a category for "Rule Books" but it doesn't include the 2 most referenced rules (e.g. player handbook, dungeon Masters guide). Instead, it contains search libraries (e.g. spells, items, equipment, etc..), classes, and races, which seem more informational than rules.
I would be interested in learning more about the methods that were used to test it with users.
I mean, after getting over the initial shock my only major complaint is that the sources menu is horrifying. It almost feels like I have to guess where I think the sourcebook would be (on pc) and then give up and just search what I think I wanted.
edit:commenting on the memory of a ui that is changing is generally a bad idea :/. Sorry badeye
Clicking on a word? Fine. Having to click on giant pictures, to then scroll through other pictures, to find pictures, that have words on them? Not ok. It used to be small and compact, which was extremely nice to have, especially for someone with a brain that sometimes has trouble remembering what the hell i was even looking for to begin with. Having that as a toggle option would be super handy. i don't need big pretty pictures, i just need quick easy clicks.
We see a theme regarding the Sources menu in the feedback, and we will make some adjustments to it in the coming days.
We also already added back each individual book to the mobile menu, so I am curious why you mention "on mobile and pc" - the mobile experience is literally the same as it was before the change with the exception that "Rules" has been renamed "Sourcebooks" (since sourcebook is a much more appropriate word given the nature of recent D&D releases).
Does this "temporary issue" also refer to the hover over menu system? The change necessitates clicking through several pages instead of just hovering down to the page you want directly. Hoping this is also going to be remedied.
Sorry about that! I was running on memories of the mobile experience from earlier today! My mistake
I’d love to hear what somebody who uses a screenreader, if this layout is better or worse for them. I play largely on an iPad, so this change doesn’t effect me too much yet, but I agree that I preferred having multiple dropdowns, and that they just needed to be improved in terms of mouseover precision - which may have been why lots of people didn’t use their lower layers, rather than not wanting to. I have enough of the pages that I use a lot in my browser history so I don’t anticipate using the menu a lot (but when I do, it tends to be for a deep dive, because all the top level things are in my browser history).
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With all due respect and every intent of kindness, you are attempting to provide context while missing much of the context you would need to do so.
That said, we knew going into this release today that the Sources menu tested the most ambiguous of everything we tried. Given that, we elected to move forward with our best guess and allow feedback from the broader community to shape its eventual form.
We develop internally with the idea always in mind "if you're going to fail, fail fast." We rapidly iterate internally and we have made it a part of our strategy to release things earlier to the community this year where we can get feedback quicker to overall save development time.
We appreciate and are paying attention to all the feedback in this thread, particularly if it is specific and actionable (things like "zomg it's terribad" is neither of those by the way). We will absolutely make course corrections and get the menu as usable as we possibly can for the largest portion of the community as possible while also accomplishing our goals to be appropriately set up for all the things that are going to start happening on DDB this year.
Thanks!
Are you also paying attention to the feedback on the Changelog update for this? You probably are, but want to check because some very good points have been raised there by multiple members as well.
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I also wanted to raise how long it takes to get to actual Adventure content as a serious problem. I'm running Rise of Tiamat and it now takes me a mouseover and 4 clicks to get there, and it is not at all intuitive, since the sources aren't clearly ordered.
Remember how people complained about the Character sheet revamp? Good times.
I actually like the new layout, with one small caveat.
I do think adventure books and rule books should be discrete from each other in some way. The best way I can think of if possible would be to have the sources item open two separate rows that you can side-scroll independently of each other.
But other than that small suggestion, I think it looks really great.
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I see you say this very often whenever criticisms are brought up on any feature and yet, visibly, it seems that the opposite is true. Where is all this positive feedback you're getting that is hidden from our view?
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I agree with most of the comments. I use D&D Beyond when I play, and am often toggling between the adventure I'm running and the different rulebooks. Before it was quick and easy to navigate to which adventure you wanted. Now it takes far longer, and is more difficult to do. Small visible lists that can be easily scanned by eye are so much quicker than having to scroll through large photos to find the right screen, and then to click on the right one.
I see you criticize my honest engagement to criticism very often in kind. It seems true that you want to pick a fight.
However, I'm willing to extend an optimistic benefit of the doubt to you and imagine that you aren't just simply trying to be contrary because I understand that I don't have access to all the information you have access to and I don't fully understand your context.
The forums are a single input for feedback and are not - generally - representative of the broader community. This makes a good deal of sense given that forums use across the tech landscape has declined a great deal in the last 10 years as other platforms have emerged (social media, chat applications, Reddit, etc.).
I (personally) like forums quite a bit, and appreciate the input that we do receive here, but the truth is it's still a small part of the overall community. I am also pretty keen on the idea that those participating on the forums really like D&D and D&D Beyond, which is why I spend time replying to posts like this.
We are working closely with the DOTS RPG group, and the early feedback is that the mega menu has improved accessibility via a screen reader from the previous menu structure. However, we are fully aware we have much more to do to get where we want to be with it.
We will continue to work with DOTS to make that happen.
Thanks!