So, what, so long as I describe a character creator as 'For the fifth edition of the world's most popular RPG', that would protect me from any sort of legal action?
Well, that plus not using any character names from the D&D books... and being careful about which other elements are included (i.e. make sure the name of a plane isn't trademarked or otherwise reserved as intellectual property), and how things are worded (example: before the 5th edition SRD covered what can be used by other publishers without issue under the OGL, some companies were already producing 5th-edition compatible books by using only things already declared open content by the 3.5 SRD, and were changing any other term so that the reader would get the same idea, but via different text - such as "has tactical advantage" vs. "has advantage").
And you also have to make sure that the trade dress (such as fonts, colors, layout, or other graphics used) of what you are making does not look like a D&D product, because that is just like any other kind of art and is protected by laws.
In fact, it may just help illustrate things by pointing out something most folks don't realize: the SRD and the OGL are not required for a 3rd party to produce products that can be used with the Dungeons & Dragons game. What the SRD and OGL do is make it easier to do so by outlining what parts of WotC's work and property (that they don't have to give away any of for free) they are freely giving to anyone and everyone that wants to use it.
I believe I begin to see the problem. You seem not to understand how copyright and trademark infringement work.
The content within the physical books is not just an idea, it is legally protected intellectual property that is owned by Wizards of the Coast (and by extension Hasbro). No, you don't have a right to reproduce their IP (intellectual property) without their permission.
When you buy a physical book, what you own is the paper and cover, the physical, tangible thing. You do not own the content inside. This is why you are not allowed to make photocopies of it without permission from WotC. This is why you are not allowed to retype all of the content on to a web site for everyone to use (whether for free or not).
When you buy a video game from Steam, you don't own the game. You don't own the bits of data that represent the game. What you have purchased is a license to use the game. Same thing with an operating system on a computer.
WotC created the open license for their SRD material. That is, a sub-set of the D&D 5e content that anyone may reproduce without paying a fee to them. They have the legal right to rescind this agreement.
WotC does not grant a licence to use non-srd material anywhere without their permission. That's why DDB, Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds all pay licencing fees to WotC for the right to reproduce the non-srd content on their web sites.
It sounds like what you're really upset about is that the web sites that were reproducing the material for free got shut down, and now you have to pay for something you shouldn't have had access to in the first place. WotC are within their legal rights to stop anyone from reproducing their IP, just like you would have the same right to stop others from using copyrighted material you created, or to charge for that content.
If you don't like that, don't blame me, or DDB, or WotC. I suggest you write to your government representatives and ask that they change US copyright and trademark laws so that you can use someone else's IP for free.
You guys get so hung up on legality, and fail to recognize practicality. Yes, Wizards has the rights to do whatever they want. I have affirmed this right over and over throughout this thread. But how they choose to enforce their rights is up to them and reflects upon them as a company. Wizards also patented tapping Magic cards in 1997, but you'll never be able to convince me that it's not absurd that another game can't use the phrase 'tap' to describe turning a cards 90 degrees.
The content within the physical books is absolutely 'just an idea'. The fact that it's legally protected doesn't somehow elevate it to more than just ideas. I'm going to open my Monster Manual to a random page. Stop me when I break the law. Invisible Stalker. Medium elemental. Neutral alignment. AC 14. (I'm not sure if the Invisible Stalker is in the SRD or not but hopefully you see my point.) This is trivial to reproduce. I can put the stat block on a t-shirt. Is my shirt now some sort of intellectual property theft? Or is it okay so long as I don't wear the shirt outside of my house?
I do think US IP law is busted, yeah, but Wizards is also outstanding (In, you know, the bad way) in how they decide to engage with it. No one is forcing their hand. They are choosing to shut people down. As I've said before, they choose how much goes into the SRD, and they could decide it's all of it.
So what are you complaining about? that yes, they have invoked their lawful right to shut down anyone that was doing something with their legally protected IP and you want them to turn a blind eye and say "oh go ahead, make money off my content illegally, i don't mind" ? Are you serious?
Have you never watched any games in the US and heard that tag at the end? "This Broadcast is the Copyright of the NFL and reserves all rights and you cannot copy or rebroadcast without explicit written permission." This means you cannot even record it and rebroadcast it over the internet, in a gym, etc. This is how the law works.
Please educate me on how the US IP law is busted? so far it seems to protect those that created the content first. Just like a patent would do for an idea.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Please educate me on how the US IP law is busted? so far it seems to protect those that created the content first. Just like a patent would do for an idea.
I think the most obvious and egregious example is Mickey Mouse. Walt Disney created Mickey Mouse in 1928. Under the Copyright Act at the time, Mickey Mouse would remain under copyright for 56 years (28 and then another 28 with a renewal.), meaning it would expire in 1984. Since then, Disney has lobbies numerous times to extend the duration of the Copyright Act so that Mickey Mouse would never enter the public domain.
Like you said, IP law exists to protect the people that create something. I think this is totally fair. But I think that indefinite copyrights are ultimately an abuse of the system. Gary Gygax died in 2008. Dave Arneson in 2009. The people that created D&D aren't here anymore. What's left are, certainly, people that've worked hard and designed an excellent game, but IP law isn't protecting the people that made Dungeons & Dragons anymore, it's protecting a corporation.
I sincerely believe that D&D as an idea is so diffused into the public consciousness, like Mickey Mouse and like, I dunno, Star Wars and the X-Men, that the idea that a private entity can maintain exclusive rights to those ideas is ultimately backwards. It doesn't make sense for a business to have a monopoly on parts of our culture.
In practice I think that the all-or-nothing enforcement of trademark law means that businesses have to swing around a greatsword when a scalpel would do a lot more to protect their interests. I also think that the idea that a free character creator is theft is silly. Ideas, like video games, are trivial to pirate, and businesses are better off investing in getting users to want to spend money on their products, rather than feebly trying to punish the people that don't want to. Just look at Steam.
This is all sort of tangential, and, yes, ideological. I originally came into this thread just saying that I didn't think D&D Beyond was worth what it was being charged for, but a bunch of moral arguments, like accusing hobbyist programmers of theft, is what's led to this. I'm willing to end the conversation here because I'm pretty sure there's no chance of this being constructive or useful to anyone at this point.
I play World of Warcraft so i should be able to print shirts with World of Warcraft on them and sell.
I dont think Blizzard will mind me doing so.
Sigh.
If we're really going to continue with the sarcastic, argumentative stuff, sure.
First off, I said nothing about selling a shirt, just wearing one.
Second, I said nothing about logos. I was talking about information. I think it's slightly reasonable for Blizzard to take issue with you wearing a homemade shirt with the World of Warcraft logo on it. I think it's completely unreasonable of them to take issue with you making a shirt that reads "Humans can play as:Death Knight, Hunter, Mage, Monk, Paladin, Priest, Rogue,Warlock, and Warrior. They gain 10% increased reputation with factions."
I'd like to remind everyone that discussing illegal content is against the site rules and guidelines, and can potentially come with heavy consequences. Please try to remain on topic without getting into inappropriate details, or posting something that can be perceived as endorsing illegal content. Thank you.
I'd like to remind everyone that discussing illegal content is against the site rules and guidelines, and can potentially come with heavy consequences. Please try to remain on topic without getting into inappropriate details, or posting something that can be perceived as endorsing illegal content. Thank you.
Apologies. It's hard to tell exactly where the line is, and I've been trying to err on the side of caution for (most of) this conversation. All I was trying to say is that the existence of illegal services did not influence my decision to buy official Wizards products.
Please educate me on how the US IP law is busted? so far it seems to protect those that created the content first. Just like a patent would do for an idea.
I'm willing to end the conversation here because I'm pretty sure there's no chance of this being constructive or useful to anyone at this point.
And I would agree. Since you have stated many times that you do not feel that, at this time, DDB has a value you are willing to purchase, I would take that as you might no longer be posting to this thread (and possibly leaving the community). I wish you luck and that your dice always come up Nat 20's (unless you are the DM, then Nat 1's).
I don't know if you're coming back or not, but I think the issue has become sort of ideological. And I don't fault you for that. There are a bunch of laws that I personally don't agree with. Unfortunately, it doesn't change what the reality of the situation is.
If you make one t-shirt with one non-SRD rule on it, while it may not be the most legally sound thing to do, I honestly think Mike Mearls or whoever at WotC or Hasbro would see the humor in it. Copyright laws exist to protect content creators. I don't presume to know what your hobbies are, but if you've ever created content in the hopes of selling it, this issue becomes a lot more personal. But human beings are still human beings, and I think most people tend to be pretty reasonable.
And I don't think independent programmers are necessarily guilty of literal theft (until they open up Patreon accounts), but they are distributing information via a means that is outside of their legal right to do so. The point isn't so much that those people are evil. They were filling a need that existed at the time to make an ordinarily complicated process a bit easier to manage. The point is that Curse isn't the bad guy either just because they're doing things through the proper channels.
What would be nice is if in future, hardback books come with a D&D Beyond activation code that allows their use on D&D Beyond. Similar to how if you buy a vinyl album you get a download code to get the content digitally for free. From what I see here, that would require agreement between WotC and Curse. For the same amount of money to be charged for the books, someone has to take a hit, somewhere. Currently it's the consumer of course (extra charge for digital), which hurts the reputation of both companies - but especially WotC who are the 'face' of the whole thing. If they translate that into lost dollars, perhaps they'll cut Curse into the physical sales and we can get this thing on the road in a sensible manner.
Meanwhile I've spent about $20 on content I already had grrrr.
What would be nice is if in future, hardback books come with a D&D Beyond activation code that allows their use on D&D Beyond. Similar to how if you buy a vinyl album you get a download code to get the content digitally for free. From what I see here, that would require agreement between WotC and Curse. For the same amount of money to be charged for the books, someone has to take a hit, somewhere. Currently it's the consumer of course (extra charge for digital), which hurts the reputation of both companies - but especially WotC who are the 'face' of the whole thing. If they translate that into lost dollars, perhaps they'll cut Curse into the physical sales and we can get this thing on the road in a sensible manner.
Meanwhile I've spent about $20 on content I already had grrrr.
As has has been explained ad nauseam here in this thread and others... that is never going to happen.
D&D Beyond is NOT Wizards of the Coast. D&D Beyond is also NOT the only online digital version of the rule books, there is also Roll20 (which has the Monster Manual and various adventures) and Fantasy Grounds (which has the core rule books + adventures).
Unless you think buying the physical book once should unlock the same content on every digital sight, which is also never going to happen, because economics.
Honestly the biggest problem with the launch of D&D Beyond has been a lack of education by WotC about how this business works. I get the feeling a lot of people, especially newer players, assume that DDB is some official wing of WotC, and that WotC controls it.
If WotC had created their own digital tool and run it themselves, then people might have a legitimate argument for "unlock codes".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
What would be nice is if in future, hardback books come with a D&D Beyond activation code that allows their use on D&D Beyond. Similar to how if you buy a vinyl album you get a download code to get the content digitally for free. From what I see here, that would require agreement between WotC and Curse. For the same amount of money to be charged for the books, someone has to take a hit, somewhere. Currently it's the consumer of course (extra charge for digital), which hurts the reputation of both companies - but especially WotC who are the 'face' of the whole thing. If they translate that into lost dollars, perhaps they'll cut Curse into the physical sales and we can get this thing on the road in a sensible manner.
Meanwhile I've spent about $20 on content I already had grrrr.
As has has been explained ad nauseam here in this thread and others... that is never going to happen.
D&D Beyond is NOT Wizards of the Coast. D&D Beyond is also NOT the only online digital version of the rule books, there is also Roll20 (which has the Monster Manual and various adventures) and Fantasy Grounds (which has the core rule books + adventures).
Unless you think buying the physical book once should unlock the same content on every digital sight, which is also never going to happen, because economics.
Honestly the biggest problem with the launch of D&D Beyond has been a lack of education by WotC about how this business works. I get the feeling a lot of people, especially newer players, assume that DDB is some official wing of WotC, and that WotC controls it.
If WotC had created their own digital tool and run it themselves, then people might have a legitimate argument for "unlock codes".
I am absolutely done arguing, I promise, but I do want to share my perspective on this, as it seems that a gap in perspectives is the cause of a lot of arguments in this thread, mine included.
The major difference, to me, between D&D Beyond and Roll20/Fantasy Grounds, is that both Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds do not exist solely for 5th Edition, and in fact I'm pretty sure predate it. D&D Beyond is dedicated explicitly to 5th Edition and at a result it creates the perspective that it is a collaboration between Curse and Wizards, rather than mere licensing. The site also holds pretty similarly to the same aesthetic as the official Wizards site, and on the official site there's currently, effectively, an advertisement for D&D Beyond on it.
Related, Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds both provide a function- a virtual tabletop. (Unless I've totally missed something and D&D Beyond actually provides this, which is definitely possible.) Any content I purchase for those sites is integrated to that existing service. While D&D Beyond creates the perception that I am paying for something I already own, Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 create the perception that I am enhancing the tool that I'm already using.
Again, not communicating anything here other than how I feel the differences affect my perception of the products.
One of the confusing things also is that before DDB launched, it was advertised as the official 5e toolset. I think this may be due to the licensing agreement, as there is probably something giving Curse a degree of exclusivity when it comes to the certain functionality it provides. R20/FG may have a licensed compendium, but I believe their official features extend to things like pre-formatted maps, tokens, handouts, and other pre-written adventure notes that add to the online play experience. DDB probably gets to have the only officially licensed character creator, encounter builder (which is slated to come at some point), and other features meant to enhance the IRL tabletop experience.
What would be nice is if in future, hardback books come with a D&D Beyond activation code that allows their use on D&D Beyond. Similar to how if you buy a vinyl album you get a download code to get the content digitally for free. From what I see here, that would require agreement between WotC and Curse. For the same amount of money to be charged for the books, someone has to take a hit, somewhere. Currently it's the consumer of course (extra charge for digital), which hurts the reputation of both companies - but especially WotC who are the 'face' of the whole thing. If they translate that into lost dollars, perhaps they'll cut Curse into the physical sales and we can get this thing on the road in a sensible manner.
Meanwhile I've spent about $20 on content I already had grrrr.
As has has been explained ad nauseam here in this thread and others... that is never going to happen.
D&D Beyond is NOT Wizards of the Coast. D&D Beyond is also NOT the only online digital version of the rule books, there is also Roll20 (which has the Monster Manual and various adventures) and Fantasy Grounds (which has the core rule books + adventures).
Unless you think buying the physical book once should unlock the same content on every digital sight, which is also never going to happen, because economics.
Honestly the biggest problem with the launch of D&D Beyond has been a lack of education by WotC about how this business works. I get the feeling a lot of people, especially newer players, assume that DDB is some official wing of WotC, and that WotC controls it.
If WotC had created their own digital tool and run it themselves, then people might have a legitimate argument for "unlock codes".
I am absolutely done arguing, I promise, but I do want to share my perspective on this, as it seems that a gap in perspectives is the cause of a lot of arguments in this thread, mine included.
The major difference, to me, between D&D Beyond and Roll20/Fantasy Grounds, is that both Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds do not exist solely for 5th Edition, and in fact I'm pretty sure predate it. D&D Beyond is dedicated explicitly to 5th Edition and at a result it creates the perspective that it is a collaboration between Curse and Wizards, rather than mere licensing. The site also holds pretty similarly to the same aesthetic as the official Wizards site, and on the official site there's currently, effectively, an advertisement for D&D Beyond on it.
Related, Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds both provide a function- a virtual tabletop. (Unless I've totally missed something and D&D Beyond actually provides this, which is definitely possible.) Any content I purchase for those sites is integrated to that existing service. While D&D Beyond creates the perception that I am paying for something I already own, Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 create the perception that I am enhancing the tool that I'm already using.
Again, not communicating anything here other than how I feel the differences affect my perception of the products.
Fancyceleb, I would agree your perception of the situation is a valid one. IMO D&D Beyond needs to do a better job in how it markets itself to make its relationship with WotC clear.
For the record, Curse have stated repeatedly they have no plans for a VTT. We continue to pester them for one, since it would make this platform even more valuable, and I would switch in a second!
Curse has shown concepts for an eventual (possibly) integration with Twitch, that would allow for screen overlay that displays character stats in real-time. (It was part of a sizzle reel shown at the Tomb of Annihilation).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
One of the confusing things also is that before DDB launched, it was advertised as the official 5e toolset. I think this may be due to the licensing agreement, as there is probably something giving Curse a degree of exclusivity when it comes to the certain functionality it provides. R20/FG may have a licensed compendium, but I believe their official features extend to things like pre-formatted maps, tokens, handouts, and other pre-written adventure notes that add to the online play experience. DDB probably gets to have the only officially licensed character creator, encounter builder (which is slated to come at some point), and other features meant to enhance the IRL tabletop experience.
To be fair, Fantasy Grounds has a full PHB that integrates with the game.
Roll20's compendium works with their character sheet by dragging and dropping (which is useful), and if they ever release a full PHB it might do the same.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
The major difference, to me, between D&D Beyond and Roll20/Fantasy Grounds, is that both Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds do not exist solely for 5th Edition, and in fact I'm pretty sure predate it. D&D Beyond is dedicated explicitly to 5th Edition and at a result it creates the perspective that it is a collaboration between Curse and Wizards, rather than mere licensing. The site also holds pretty similarly to the same aesthetic as the official Wizards site, and on the official site there's currently, effectively, an advertisement for D&D Beyond on it.
Related, Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds both provide a function- a virtual tabletop. (Unless I've totally missed something and D&D Beyond actually provides this, which is definitely possible.) Any content I purchase for those sites is integrated to that existing service. While D&D Beyond creates the perception that I am paying for something I already own, Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 create the perception that I am enhancing the tool that I'm already using.
Again, not communicating anything here other than how I feel the differences affect my perception of the products.
This is very helpful, thank you. While it's not my perspective (in part because I don't use VTTs and don't play the other games that Roll20 & Fantasy Grounds support), I can certainly understand this perspective.
Have you never watched any games in the US and heard that tag at the end? "This Broadcast is the Copyright of the NFL and reserves all rights and you cannot copy or rebroadcast without explicit written permission." This means you cannot even record it and rebroadcast it over the internet, in a gym, etc. This is how the law works.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I play World of Warcraft so i should be able to print shirts with World of Warcraft on them and sell.
I dont think Blizzard will mind me doing so.
I'm not stupid. I'm just unlucky when I'm thinking.
I'd like to remind everyone that discussing illegal content is against the site rules and guidelines, and can potentially come with heavy consequences. Please try to remain on topic without getting into inappropriate details, or posting something that can be perceived as endorsing illegal content. Thank you.
Site Rules & Guidelines - Please feel free to message a moderator if you have any concerns.
My homebrew: [Subclasses] [Races] [Feats] [Discussion Thread]
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I own the PHD, MM, DMG and the new ZGTE. Do i still have to buy them again to gain the access to use their content?
A very import question is there an Option do activate for example your purchased players handbook digitaly so you can use it in DnD Beyond?
I don't know if you're coming back or not, but I think the issue has become sort of ideological. And I don't fault you for that. There are a bunch of laws that I personally don't agree with. Unfortunately, it doesn't change what the reality of the situation is.
If you make one t-shirt with one non-SRD rule on it, while it may not be the most legally sound thing to do, I honestly think Mike Mearls or whoever at WotC or Hasbro would see the humor in it. Copyright laws exist to protect content creators. I don't presume to know what your hobbies are, but if you've ever created content in the hopes of selling it, this issue becomes a lot more personal. But human beings are still human beings, and I think most people tend to be pretty reasonable.
And I don't think independent programmers are necessarily guilty of literal theft (until they open up Patreon accounts), but they are distributing information via a means that is outside of their legal right to do so. The point isn't so much that those people are evil. They were filling a need that existed at the time to make an ordinarily complicated process a bit easier to manage. The point is that Curse isn't the bad guy either just because they're doing things through the proper channels.
What would be nice is if in future, hardback books come with a D&D Beyond activation code that allows their use on D&D Beyond. Similar to how if you buy a vinyl album you get a download code to get the content digitally for free. From what I see here, that would require agreement between WotC and Curse. For the same amount of money to be charged for the books, someone has to take a hit, somewhere. Currently it's the consumer of course (extra charge for digital), which hurts the reputation of both companies - but especially WotC who are the 'face' of the whole thing. If they translate that into lost dollars, perhaps they'll cut Curse into the physical sales and we can get this thing on the road in a sensible manner.
Meanwhile I've spent about $20 on content I already had grrrr.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I think that's a fair assessment.
One of the confusing things also is that before DDB launched, it was advertised as the official 5e toolset. I think this may be due to the licensing agreement, as there is probably something giving Curse a degree of exclusivity when it comes to the certain functionality it provides. R20/FG may have a licensed compendium, but I believe their official features extend to things like pre-formatted maps, tokens, handouts, and other pre-written adventure notes that add to the online play experience. DDB probably gets to have the only officially licensed character creator, encounter builder (which is slated to come at some point), and other features meant to enhance the IRL tabletop experience.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
Check your entitlements here. | Support Ticket LInk