First, anyone can fake a digital picture very easily, and faking just the receipt is even easier. Also, a photo of you doesn't mean much since no one at either WOTC or Curse would know you. You could be anybody holding a receipt. Also, you could just buy a coffee, get a receipt (or any little piece of paper), go to a bookstore/gaming store and hold a copy of a book (or borrow your friend's copy) and say, "Yes, this is me with my receipt and the book that I bought." Even a real receipt itself is USELESS to WOTC or Curse. Neither one of these companies sold you the book directly, so they would have no way of using a receipt to verify your purchase, and they sure as heck are not going to waste time and money trying to verify your purchase with Amazon or a local retailer who probably would not even give them that information to begin with.
Second, you get to the issue of cost and time to set up a purchase verification system. To set up a verification system of previously purchased products would cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. There is ZERO incentive for WOTC or Curse to invest this time or money into such a system. Yes, for books published in the future, WOTC could decide to include a digital download code in these new books, and this codes could be used to purchase digital content at a discounted price, but they cannot do it for purchases that happened in the past. WOTC may or may not decide giving people a digital download code makes sense. The decision is complicated by the fact that WOTC does not produce the digital content, they license it to a separate company. Curse is the separate company, and they would not agree to eat a discount for WOTC, so WOTC would either have to give up some of its profit margin to compensate Curse for the discounted sales or else WOTC would have to increase the price of physical books to subsidize digital content. Unless, they think this would ultimately make them a lot more money in the long term, they will not do this.
So, problem not solved.
At the end of the day, this is a purchase decision like any other purchase decision you have to make in life. Either you decide the product Curse is selling is worth the price for the enjoyment/usefulness you believe it will bring to you, or not. And, if not, fine. You can continue to use the free version if you choose, and of course, you always have the physical books you bought (and your imagination) to play the game.
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
Thank you for your time
2 separate companies, Wizards of the Coast does the physical book, Curse does the digital content. Don't look for codes any time soon.
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
Thank you for your time
2 separate companies, Wizards of the Coast does the physical book, Curse does the digital content. Don't look for codes any time soon.
I hope you're wrong because otherwise Wizards is now in direct competition with its own licensee. Obviously we don't know all the terms of the licensing agreement but I don't see how this could work out well for both companies without significant crossover.
No doubt about it - it's a tricky problem to solve, but I think Curse has the most to lose here so they should make a serious effort to figure it out.
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
Thank you for your time
2 separate companies, Wizards of the Coast does the physical book, Curse does the digital content. Don't look for codes any time soon.
I hope you're wrong because otherwise Wizards is now in direct competition with its own licensee. Obviously we don't know all the terms of the licensing agreement but I don't see how this could work out well for both companies without significant crossover.
No doubt about it - it's a tricky problem to solve, but I think Curse has the most to lose here so they should make a serious effort to figure it out.
WotC's no more in direct competition with Curse than it is with any other place that sells its products.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
Thank you for your time
2 separate companies, Wizards of the Coast does the physical book, Curse does the digital content. Don't look for codes any time soon.
I hope you're wrong because otherwise Wizards is now in direct competition with its own licensee. Obviously we don't know all the terms of the licensing agreement but I don't see how this could work out well for both companies without significant crossover.
No doubt about it - it's a tricky problem to solve, but I think Curse has the most to lose here so they should make a serious effort to figure it out.
No more so than with FG or Roll20 I would think. People will still refuse to use the digital tools because they have already purchased books. I chose not to go with FG or Roll20 preferring to wait for something like this. I own the physical books and will continue to purchase both the physical books and the books in DDB as I need or have the money to buy them. I know there are the others that will be doing the same, simply because it is nice to have a physical copy that doesn't get mangled.
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
Thank you for your time
2 separate companies, Wizards of the Coast does the physical book, Curse does the digital content. Don't look for codes any time soon.
I hope you're wrong because otherwise Wizards is now in direct competition with its own licensee. Obviously we don't know all the terms of the licensing agreement but I don't see how this could work out well for both companies without significant crossover.
No doubt about it - it's a tricky problem to solve, but I think Curse has the most to lose here so they should make a serious effort to figure it out.
Wizards makes money from the licensing agreement with Curse. Curse doesn't make anything from you buying the physical products from Wizards. In order for the Curse team to make money from their investment into D&D Beyond, they need to charge for the products and services here. Giving out codes to those who bought the physical books would hurt Curse and this service might go away as a result.
What incentive is there for me to use D&D Beyond if I've already bought hardcover books? If I don't pay what looks to be an additional 66% of the MSRP of what I already own D&D Beyond appears to be useless to me and my players. This drives me away from any of the digital products for D&D, it looks like there has been zero consideration given for accommodating the many, many people who bought hard copies already; instead of creating a way for us to access the content we already bought you've turned the digital tool we've been promised for years into nothing more than a glorified paygate.
So again, what incentive do I have to use D&D Beyond? I've purchased the hardcopies of the books; there are plenty of sites that let me track character sheets and adventure logs and homebrew info; I run IRL games, and even when I need to stream someone in I've just used Skype or Twitch. What is supposed to entice me as an experienced D&D gamer to want to use this? This seems only oriented toward brand new players who have never purchased a D&D book and also seems like a way to undermine local game stores given that you are de-incentivizing buying physical books and products with D&D Beyond.
The subscription pricing is pretty reasonable, but the content pricing is insane. The $20 sale prices for the main books are still twice as much as I and the people I game with would be willing to pay.
If I can't even access the PHB content then the site is practically useless to me and I won't bother paying for a sub. Give access to the PHB, DMG, and MM content included in the sub or drastically reduce the price of those books. I'm not going to comment on the pricing of all the other stuff - if you can't get people like me in the door with the basics then the rest is irrelevant.
Some recommended reading for anyone who: a) think WotC is trying to nickel and dime you by asking you to pay for content again b) are concerned about what you're getting for your money compared with the physical books c) are concerned about the pricing structure
So I find the counter points lacking. Since 5E launched WotC had been pushing D&D beyond as a tool coming to enhance our gaming experience, not a stripped down version of what is already available through fantasy grounds and virtual tabletop. They seem to offer the same thing but with more usability since their products are adapted for online tabletops and come with lots of extras to enable that. So far D&D beyond seems to be a pretty wiki that we have to pay a lot for.
The argument about what you get in the digital products versus the books is moot since DDB is an online only product. If I'm gaming at my friend's with the poor WiFi, I don't have access to hundreds of dollars worth of content I paid for, unlike say if I had digital content from Paizo which I can get for free as a pdf with my hard copy of the book. Sure it won't have the hot linking in the document, but I'll save the $30+ a book and just use Adobe's search function instead. You are paying purchase prices to only lease a product, and frankly it still seems like a big gamble to assume that DDB and it's products will even exist in a couple years; you don't even get a pdf. When I'm playing Pathfinder, all of the core rules are freely and legally available in an easy to use wiki with links and everything; while it may not be as pretty as DDB, it's free and has all the game data all connected together.
The argument that it would be impossible to set up some kind of cross content system because they are different companies is plain stupid. Companies partner on stuff like this all the time, I've bought DC blurays put out by WB and sold at Best Buy that got me free tickets to an AMC theater, digital versions of the movie to download, free comics at comixpedia, and in game bonus content for a Batman game put out by Rocksteady. That's collaboration between more than a dozen different companies there to cross promote a licensed franchise. Since WotC knew they were doing this and planned it for years, why did they not think to address this issue, except to try and gouge their customers (something they have a long history of doing, just look at 4e).
As for the business model, they decided this is the model they wanted, one that would make DDB a poor mockery of a freemium app instead of the viable tool for D&D players it was said to be. This service is either useless or a scam for anyone who has already bought any of the books, it is a service designed to only be used by virgin players; if they intended it to be otherwise then they should have either released DDB at the same time as the books so consumers could make an informed choice, or they would have included a way to access IRL purchased content through DDB, or made it a subscription base model that gets your access to all the content as long as your subscribed. They choose a business model that would spurned the existing player base and that's on them, not me as the consumer. They need my money, I don't need their glorified pay portal pdf's.
All that said, this is a tool that I had been excited about because I saw the potential. I was already using various online tools to enhance my game and easily share information with players, being able to combine it all in one place with a bespoke setup for D&D was appealing. But seeing what the final product is I am once again left wondering "How is this supposed to offer value to me, the experienced D&D player who has purchased thousands and thousands of dollars worth of D&D and D&D related products over the past 25 years? What message does this send to me as one of the many, many people that was driven away to Pathfinder by 4E terribleness and brazen attempt to cater to the MMORPG cried at the expense of their loyal customer base?"
It tells me that WotC doesn't want or value my business. It tells me that even though I've helped support them for decades by purchasing their physically books, that I as part of the player base that has sustained them for so long an unimportant to them, that they'd rather rip me off or abandon me in their craven pursuit of online gamers than even consider the needs of the gamers that got them here.
It tells me that WotC doesn't want or value my business. It tells me that even though I've helped support them for decades by purchasing their physically books, that I as part of the player base that has sustained them for so long an unimportant to them, that they'd rather rip me off or abandon me in their craven pursuit of online gamers than even consider the needs of the gamers that got them here.
Just wanted to jump in and say thank you for your cogent interpretation of the situation before you get dog piled by people who want DnDBeyond to succeed regardless of it's impact or utility to the consumer.
I wish someone would compile these forums and mail them to the DnD brand manager at WotC. We keep *****ing at Curse but fundamentally this is a WotC problem.
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
Thank you for your time
2 separate companies, Wizards of the Coast does the physical book, Curse does the digital content. Don't look for codes any time soon.
I hope you're wrong because otherwise Wizards is now in direct competition with its own licensee. Obviously we don't know all the terms of the licensing agreement but I don't see how this could work out well for both companies without significant crossover.
No doubt about it - it's a tricky problem to solve, but I think Curse has the most to lose here so they should make a serious effort to figure it out.
Wizards makes money from the licensing agreement with Curse. Curse doesn't make anything from you buying the physical products from Wizards. In order for the Curse team to make money from their investment into D&D Beyond, they need to charge for the products and services here. Giving out codes to those who bought the physical books would hurt Curse and this service might go away as a result.
The smart way to do it would be for WotC to pay Curse a fee every time an activation code from a book is used so they're sharing the revenue. There's too much we don't know for me to speculate on whether or not the two companies could come to a mutually profitable arrangement that way, but that's not really my problem. I want them to succeed, but all I have to do is decide if this service is worth the cost. Right now, it's not.
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
Thank you for your time
2 separate companies, Wizards of the Coast does the physical book, Curse does the digital content. Don't look for codes any time soon.
I hope you're wrong because otherwise Wizards is now in direct competition with its own licensee. Obviously we don't know all the terms of the licensing agreement but I don't see how this could work out well for both companies without significant crossover.
No doubt about it - it's a tricky problem to solve, but I think Curse has the most to lose here so they should make a serious effort to figure it out.
Wizards makes money from the licensing agreement with Curse. Curse doesn't make anything from you buying the physical products from Wizards. In order for the Curse team to make money from their investment into D&D Beyond, they need to charge for the products and services here. Giving out codes to those who bought the physical books would hurt Curse and this service might go away as a result.
The smart way to do it would be for WotC to pay Curse a fee every time an activation code from a book is used so they're sharing the revenue. There's too much we don't know for me to speculate on whether or not the two companies could come to a mutually profitable arrangement that way, but that's not really my problem. I want them to succeed, but all I have to do is decide if this service is worth the cost. Right now, it's not.
If they did this, they would probably just to raise the price of the physical copy to compensate for Curse's product.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
You bring up some good points. Definitely one of those most cogent counterarguments for D&D Beyond's pricing model. But I wanted to bring up a few things:
Fantasy grounds seem to offer the same thing but with more usability since their products are adapted for online tabletops and come with lots of extras to enable that. So far D&D beyond seems to be a pretty wiki that we have to pay a lot for.
That's a fair critique. Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 are certainly superior products if you want VTT. And, though I haven't used them, they sound like more robust products in general. Bear in mind that D&D Beyond has been out for ten days though. A fairer comparison might be between Beyond today and what FG and Roll20 were at their beginning. It sounds like Beyond is going places with lots of ideas for improvements and new tools, including the following:
* Full customization of the digital character sheet * “Revamp of Backgrounds” with “heavy emphasis on action economy” * “Big changes” for the PDF export, “including short descriptions for each feature” * A change to “the ‘Quick Build’ method of character creation to create more optimized versions of each class from levels 1 to 20.” * “Whitelisting and blacklisting of [compendium] content,” in other words, toggling on and off player access to purchased content. * Display preferences to “share a read-only view of a character” * The ability to reassign a character to another player * Maps designed for players (with traps and secret doors hidden) * Familiars/companions/wild shape options to the character builder * The mystic, artificer, and revised ranger * “Day and date hobby store release on all future products” * The ability to add/edit weights for all items/magic items * Homebrew races, feats, backgrounds, and subclasses * A native mobile app with offline capability * Dice rolling sometime “this year” * Stream integration * Encounter builder * Monster progression * Desktop UI fixes: “Layout and presentation of information will change on the larger screens.” * Ability to star or pin commonly used monsters and magic items so they appear at the top of the listing * Lots of changes to Campaign manager: blogs/wikis, timeline/milestones, NPC database, player dashboard * Monster/NPC builder
The argument about what you get in the digital products versus the books is moot since DDB is an online only product. If I'm gaming at my friend's with the poor WiFi, I don't have access to hundreds of dollars worth of content I paid for, unlike say if I had digital content from Paizo which I can get for free as a pdf with my hard copy of the book. Sure it won't have the hot linking in the document, but I'll save the $30+ a book and just use Adobe's search function instead.
A native mobile app with offline capability is in the works.
You are paying purchase prices to only lease a product, and frankly it still seems like a big gamble to assume that DDB and it's products will even exist in a couple years; you don't even get a pdf. When I'm playing Pathfinder, all of the core rules are freely and legally available in an easy to use wiki with links and everything; while it may not be as pretty as DDB, it's free and has all the game data all connected together.
Fair point. There is some risk of Curse discontinuing D&D Beyond. Fortunately for those who've already invested, lead designer Adam Bradford has said that first week's sales were very good.
The argument that it would be impossible to set up some kind of cross content system because they are different companies is plain stupid. Companies partner on stuff like this all the time, I've bought DC blurays put out by WB and sold at Best Buy that got me free tickets to an AMC theater, digital versions of the movie to download, free comics at comixpedia, and in game bonus content for a Batman game put out by Rocksteady. That's collaboration between more than a dozen different companies there to cross promote a licensed franchise.
Fair point. Though, reading between the lines of some of the things Curse designers have said, it sounds like WotC is making calls like digital book prices and subscriptions not unlocking content. Take that as you will.
Since WotC knew they were doing this and planned it for years, why did they not think to address this issue, except to try and gouge their customers (something they have a long history of doing, just look at 4e).
I have no idea what WotC's plans for digital content were at the beginning of 5th edition. But, gleaning from interviews, WotC didn't approach Curse. Rather, it sounds like Adam Bradford of Curse approached his coworkers and got them hooked on playing D&D in the office, then pitched the idea of D&D Beyond to them, and then when they were on board he took it to WotC. So, I don't know what WotC had planned but they accepted Curse's pitch. Maybe they'd given up on the idea of digital content? Maybe there were some unsuccessful attempts earlier on? I don't know.
It is a service designed to only be used by virgin players.
Agreed. New players have the most to gain from this system, especially those who prefer digital content or have no preference either way.
But seeing what the final product is...
The Beta is over, but the product is still in development.
All that being said, don't take me as an ardent believer in D&D Beyond. I bought the core books on sale but I'm waiting to see how things unfold and improve over the coming weeks and months before investing in a subscription or more content. I don't think I feel quite the sting others are feeling because I only own four hardcovers (the core books and the adventure I'm running), but I can certainly see why that would be disheartening and frustrating.
Bottom line: If you're worried that the value isn't there, maybe check back in a few months and see what improvements they've made? It sounds like they're hard at work on improving existing tools and rolling out new ones. If instead you simply don't want to rebuy the books, there's always the opportunity to enter the content you want as homebrew. As long as you don't share it publicly, devs have said that's totally fine.
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
Thank you for your time
2 separate companies, Wizards of the Coast does the physical book, Curse does the digital content. Don't look for codes any time soon.
I hope you're wrong because otherwise Wizards is now in direct competition with its own licensee. Obviously we don't know all the terms of the licensing agreement but I don't see how this could work out well for both companies without significant crossover.
No doubt about it - it's a tricky problem to solve, but I think Curse has the most to lose here so they should make a serious effort to figure it out.
Wizards makes money from the licensing agreement with Curse. Curse doesn't make anything from you buying the physical products from Wizards. In order for the Curse team to make money from their investment into D&D Beyond, they need to charge for the products and services here. Giving out codes to those who bought the physical books would hurt Curse and this service might go away as a result.
The smart way to do it would be for WotC to pay Curse a fee every time an activation code from a book is used so they're sharing the revenue. There's too much we don't know for me to speculate on whether or not the two companies could come to a mutually profitable arrangement that way, but that's not really my problem. I want them to succeed, but all I have to do is decide if this service is worth the cost. Right now, it's not.
If they did this, they would probably just to raise the price of the physical copy to compensate for Curse's product.
Possibly. WotC could choose to eat that cost in the short term in order to increase buy-in to DDB and then add it in later. Curse might choose to forego these fees for a certain period of time or for a certain number of codes in order to try and increase the subs to DDB. If WotC raises their prices to cover that cost it is unlikely to be anywhere near the current DDB costs, so that's still a net savings for me. Etc. But all that is also not really my problem. That (maybe) affects the the decision-making process for the next book i want to buy.
If you are thinking about the overall success and financial well-being of the two companies involved you are taking on too much responsibility, especially when it comes to giving feedback here. I guarantee that they aren't agonizing over the sacrifices you will have to make in order to afford their service - they just want to find the price that gets the most people to click buy.
I see something a lot in beta testers that really want a product to succeed: they give bad feedback because they are too heavily invested in the project or the company. Instead of presenting their own point of view they act like a member of the dev team. The problem with that is that the dev team already knows what it wants, but what it needs is honest opinions from the users.
I have purchased the Legendary Bundle, but the marketplace is showing me the Yawing Portal adventure for $1.99. I appear to already own Yawning Portal, why is it showing a price?
I have purchased the Legendary Bundle, but the marketplace is showing me the Yawing Portal adventure for $1.99. I appear to already own Yawning Portal, why is it showing a price?
That one seems to be a common occurrence. Can't remember if there is a fix or if people are being referred to the support folks.
I would like an option to just buy all things from one particular catagory, Like "all spells", or all races, etc. from all the sources at once. Would make buying things easier.
First, anyone can fake a digital picture very easily, and faking just the receipt is even easier. Also, a photo of you doesn't mean much since no one at either WOTC or Curse would know you. You could be anybody holding a receipt. Also, you could just buy a coffee, get a receipt (or any little piece of paper), go to a bookstore/gaming store and hold a copy of a book (or borrow your friend's copy) and say, "Yes, this is me with my receipt and the book that I bought." Even a real receipt itself is USELESS to WOTC or Curse. Neither one of these companies sold you the book directly, so they would have no way of using a receipt to verify your purchase, and they sure as heck are not going to waste time and money trying to verify your purchase with Amazon or a local retailer who probably would not even give them that information to begin with.
Second, you get to the issue of cost and time to set up a purchase verification system. To set up a verification system of previously purchased products would cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. There is ZERO incentive for WOTC or Curse to invest this time or money into such a system. Yes, for books published in the future, WOTC could decide to include a digital download code in these new books, and this codes could be used to purchase digital content at a discounted price, but they cannot do it for purchases that happened in the past. WOTC may or may not decide giving people a digital download code makes sense. The decision is complicated by the fact that WOTC does not produce the digital content, they license it to a separate company. Curse is the separate company, and they would not agree to eat a discount for WOTC, so WOTC would either have to give up some of its profit margin to compensate Curse for the discounted sales or else WOTC would have to increase the price of physical books to subsidize digital content. Unless, they think this would ultimately make them a lot more money in the long term, they will not do this.
So, problem not solved.
At the end of the day, this is a purchase decision like any other purchase decision you have to make in life. Either you decide the product Curse is selling is worth the price for the enjoyment/usefulness you believe it will bring to you, or not. And, if not, fine. You can continue to use the free version if you choose, and of course, you always have the physical books you bought (and your imagination) to play the game.
Hello, long time reader, first time poster.
One suggestion I would have is that if you purchase a physical copy of one of your books the digital content of that book be unlocked with a one time entry code.
Thank you for your time
No doubt about it - it's a tricky problem to solve, but I think Curse has the most to lose here so they should make a serious effort to figure it out.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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That's a fair critique. Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 are certainly superior products if you want VTT. And, though I haven't used them, they sound like more robust products in general. Bear in mind that D&D Beyond has been out for ten days though. A fairer comparison might be between Beyond today and what FG and Roll20 were at their beginning. It sounds like Beyond is going places with lots of ideas for improvements and new tools, including the following:
* Full customization of the digital character sheet
* “Revamp of Backgrounds” with “heavy emphasis on action economy”
* “Big changes” for the PDF export, “including short descriptions for each feature”
* A change to “the ‘Quick Build’ method of character creation to create more optimized versions of each class from levels 1 to 20.”
* “Whitelisting and blacklisting of [compendium] content,” in other words, toggling on and off player access to purchased content.
* Display preferences to “share a read-only view of a character”
* The ability to reassign a character to another player
* Maps designed for players (with traps and secret doors hidden)
* Familiars/companions/wild shape options to the character builder
* The mystic, artificer, and revised ranger
* “Day and date hobby store release on all future products”
* The ability to add/edit weights for all items/magic items
* Homebrew races, feats, backgrounds, and subclasses
* A native mobile app with offline capability
* Dice rolling sometime “this year”
* Stream integration
* Encounter builder
* Monster progression
* Desktop UI fixes: “Layout and presentation of information will change on the larger screens.”
* Ability to star or pin commonly used monsters and magic items so they appear at the top of the listing
* Lots of changes to Campaign manager: blogs/wikis, timeline/milestones, NPC database, player dashboard
* Monster/NPC builder
Bottom line: If you're worried that the value isn't there, maybe check back in a few months and see what improvements they've made? It sounds like they're hard at work on improving existing tools and rolling out new ones. If instead you simply don't want to rebuy the books, there's always the opportunity to enter the content you want as homebrew. As long as you don't share it publicly, devs have said that's totally fine.
I'm on the DM's Guild: click here
If you are thinking about the overall success and financial well-being of the two companies involved you are taking on too much responsibility, especially when it comes to giving feedback here. I guarantee that they aren't agonizing over the sacrifices you will have to make in order to afford their service - they just want to find the price that gets the most people to click buy.
I see something a lot in beta testers that really want a product to succeed: they give bad feedback because they are too heavily invested in the project or the company. Instead of presenting their own point of view they act like a member of the dev team. The problem with that is that the dev team already knows what it wants, but what it needs is honest opinions from the users.
I have purchased the Legendary Bundle, but the marketplace is showing me the Yawing Portal adventure for $1.99. I appear to already own Yawning Portal, why is it showing a price?
I would like an option to just buy all things from one particular catagory, Like "all spells", or all races, etc. from all the sources at once. Would make buying things easier.
I get hero monthly subscription, but did i still need to buy PHB, for create character?
So, regardless of subscription type i need to buy digital content for non-free materials?