Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
I actually think ZulkRS's solution is more elegant than the level restriction. For one thing, it deals with multi classing and feats. This also has the major advantage of allowing people to choose any subclass they want, and overall just seems less arbitrary. As for Hound of Ill Omen, it is fairly powerful in that it gives a character a free action, however that free action can only be used to attack one specific enemy and has a fairly high cost to summon (3 sorcery points) (you also have to be a 6th level sorcerer). Overall I'd say it's a strong ability but not game-breakingly so.
The other major change would be that this excludes Find Familiar. Honestly this seems fine. Find Familiar is used to give an ally advantage on one attack per round. It's a very powerful 1st-level spell that wizards can use for no cost. I don't think any character builds will be destroyed by not allowing Find Familiar.
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1) DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
Allowing Find Familiar is an easy fix. Summoning Spells can be restricted to first spell level. That would allow Find Familiar as it is a 1st level spell.
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
I've been thinking, I'd like to initiate another simple real time defined minigame (like Roondra's) to keep players engaged beyond the arena. Any ideas? What type of game should it be?
I have a few more mechanical thoughts in relation to the larger game, community, and prizes, but the most important part is missing. What is the game?
(Why do I feel like I get all of my ideas backwards?)
Another thing we need to decide on is who gets tokens when. Some characters already got one from advancing from 3rd to 4th on a loss. Should it be every time time a character advances a level on a loss? Or should it only be advancing to an even level (even instead of odd due to precedent set by 3rd to 4th, but could be odd instead)?
If it's every level, then characters are a lot more equal in magic item distribution. Characters who advance by winning have a chance of getting the magic item they want (and will at least get something they can use), but often magic items will be traded in anyways. When items are traded, they are functionally identical to a token of the same rarity (by design).
If it's every second level, it means there are greater rewards for winning and characters who win more often will, in general, have a few more magic items than those who don't. This makes it (arguably) more exciting to win, though it could also end up with characters who keep losing in a death spiral where they can never catch up. One downside of this method is that a character who keeps winning at even levels and losing at odd levels gets fewer rewards than someone who does it the other way round. That's not too likely to happen more than once or twice, though.
I don't have too much of a preference between these two options. I might lean slightly towards the second one, since it rewards winning more. Also that's how the old Coliseum did it and nothing seemed to go horribly wrong then.
So, 4, 6, 8, 10, etc on a loss? If I'm reading right, or still odd?
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When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
@Orileo: Yeah, 3rd to 4th, 5th to 6th, 7th to 8th etc.
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Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1) DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
Another rule I'd like to propose is that Adventures not count as sources. I believe this only affects magic items and Wildshapes. I have a few reasons for this:
People are more likely to own sourcebooks than adventures, so many players won't have access to them.
Adventure items are often unique or closely tied to the adventure plot, so it doesn't make sense that they would be widely available in the Coliseum. They can also be less balanced, since they are only intended for one specific adventure.
In regards to wildshape, adventure creatures are sometimes objectively better with unique powerful features not otherwise accessible. For example, the crag cat is basically just a reskinned tiger with a Magic Resistance ability added on most characters would be jealous of. Wildshape is supposed to only work with creatures you've seen before, so it doesn't make sense for the Druid to transform into these rare creatures anyways.
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1) DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
One personal gripe I have (granted, this may just be my personal bias) is the four flag format. I've never liked the idea of winning through an objective instead of an actual victory, but I do see the merits of having something to keep the match from going to long. This particular format, however, has the side effect of just snowballing whoever gets a small lead. Whoever goes down first has less opportunity to move as many characters around to get the points, and it just goes from there. Both the worst experience for a match and the only match I've lost so far were this format (should have phrased that better somehow, they're the same match if that wasn't clear), although I didn't necessarily lose because of the format. I'd say just get rid of it entirely, I don't find it adds anything other than annoyance.
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
I actually quite like the concept of the Four Control Points matches. I would however agree that it heavily favours whoever acts first. To mitigate this, I would suggest something like the King of the Hill matches, where the flags are only available to capture after a couple rounds.
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Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1) DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
That could be a possible solution, but I'd much prefer to see the gamemode retired entirely. I simply don't find that it adds anything other than annoyance.
That being said, if I'm the only one who feels that way, I will gladly suck it up.
Alternatively, maybe shrinking the number of cap points to 2 or 3 (one in the middle, one on each side) would work as well. That would make it less prone to snowballing, as if you fall behind with 4 it's nearly impossible to catch up.
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
I actually quite like the concept of the Four Control Points matches. I would however agree that it heavily favours whoever acts first. To mitigate this, I would suggest something like the King of the Hill matches, where the flags are only available to capture after a couple rounds.
I prefer that solution as well. Certainly eliminates the mentality of 'needing' to have at least one person always ready to move on to the field in order to not fall completely behind. So, similar to king of the hill, make them active around round 3?
As for shrinking it to 3 or 2.. there's potential there, and could be experimented with in the future.
Another rule I'd like to propose is that Adventures not count as sources. I believe this only affects magic items and Wildshapes. I have a few reasons for this:
People are more likely to own sourcebooks than adventures, so many players won't have access to them.
Adventure items are often unique or closely tied to the adventure plot, so it doesn't make sense that they would be widely available in the Coliseum. They can also be less balanced, since they are only intended for one specific adventure.
In regards to wildshape, adventure creatures are sometimes objectively better with unique powerful features not otherwise accessible. For example, the crag cat is basically just a reskinned tiger with a Magic Resistance ability added on most characters would be jealous of. Wildshape is supposed to only work with creatures you've seen before, so it doesn't make sense for the Druid to transform into these rare creatures anyways.
With DnD beyond, getting access to such sources have never been easier! :D
... *crickets*...
Anyhow! On the subject of limiting material further, that is a somewhat slippery slope. By that same token, are we to limit things like Polymorph into Tyrannosaurs Rex, Giant Ape, and Mammoth's as well? And before anyone going 'it doesn't specificy you have to know of it', but that same logic, how does your character even know its possible to turn into this also rare things in the first place. And what's to prevent them? 'oh I read it in a book!' Really now? And what's to prevent said druid from going to these remote location to 'see' new beasts as they are printed out in the future, be it in a manual or adventure? Does anyone plan to stringently gatekeeper/observe these things to give them a chance of knowing/seeing these things?
If these were named creatures like a Barnacle Bess or so forth, then sure. No turning into those obviously because they are truly "unique" to their adventure alone. As far as doing it for limiting magic items, those are bit more easier to limit as they can confer even crazier bonuses than some better beasts form. The pool of which already feels fairly lack luster, as I don't think there's been many (if any) released outside of adventure source books since the MM and PHB's release.
That's at least my 2 cents on it.
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When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
Initially I picked victory conditions with positioning in mind. I wanted 2 game types that allowed players to try and hold advantageous positions and 2 that would force them to give up those positions. King of the hill, (though not always the case,) theoretically would allow a player to hold an advantageous position, and force the other player to attack. 4 CP on the other hand, one cannot win from one strong position. Survival (to a lesser extent) was intended to eventually force players to give up advantageous positions. And the aggressive monsters would theoretically be a boon to a player in a strong position.
Generally I've liked CP games the most. It's the game type where the objective has had the most impact on the match. Usually when one team ignores the objective and goes on the offensive they tend to regret missing the opportunity. I'd say don't allow anyone to capture before round two. Thus Readied actions would give no immediate advantage (sort of.)
On source material: I couldn't in good conscience deny players the wonderful monsters of Chult (Tomb of Annihilation) including Flying Monkeys and Brontosauruses
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1) DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
In regards to beasts from adventures for Wildshape and Polymorph:
The reason I brought up rarity and the "See it before you Be it" clause of Wildshape was just to provide an in-game justification, so that disallowing items and creatures from adventures makes sense in-world as well as out-of-world.
For any CR (except CR 12, which is 4 levels above the next highest beast), there will always be many good options for Wildshape and Polymorph that are not from adventures. They really don't need magical abilities like See Invisibility and Magic Resistance added on for free. Polymorph and Moon druid Wildshape are already super powerful abilities that don't need any help to be awesome.
I've added a list of all Beasts that would no longer be allowed in the spoiler in case you want to look at it. Keep in mind that beasts below CR 1 will almost never be used.
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1) DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
I believe a few of those were "named" beasts, such as Traxigor and Snarl. But besides that point, and not to take away from it, but here's another question to maybe alleviate future issues. That being collective team turn counting the same as individual ones. As in, for simplicity sake, should it be just considered a Team Turn, somewhat eliminating issues regarding playing around turn orders based on post times? (meaning no more dancing around Moonbeam and Cloud of Daggers damage)
Or status quo?
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When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
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That would also allow Hound of Ill Omen, which was mentioned as something that would not be an exception previously.
And it would also not allow find familiar.
Check out my Extended signature here
Class Guides: Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard General Guides: PvP
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
I actually think ZulkRS's solution is more elegant than the level restriction. For one thing, it deals with multi classing and feats.
This also has the major advantage of allowing people to choose any subclass they want, and overall just seems less arbitrary.
As for Hound of Ill Omen, it is fairly powerful in that it gives a character a free action, however that free action can only be used to attack one specific enemy and has a fairly high cost to summon (3 sorcery points) (you also have to be a 6th level sorcerer). Overall I'd say it's a strong ability but not game-breakingly so.
The other major change would be that this excludes Find Familiar. Honestly this seems fine. Find Familiar is used to give an ally advantage on one attack per round. It's a very powerful 1st-level spell that wizards can use for no cost. I don't think any character builds will be destroyed by not allowing Find Familiar.
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1)
DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
Allowing Find Familiar is an easy fix. Summoning Spells can be restricted to first spell level. That would allow Find Familiar as it is a 1st level spell.
Seems fair to me.
Check out my Extended signature here
Class Guides: Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard General Guides: PvP
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
To do list:
Wrap up level-4 match (producing new level-5s)
Begin level-5 match
Begin next level-4 match
Something Big?
Begin next level-3 match
Level-6
Level-5
Level-4
Level-3
Extended Signature
I've been thinking, I'd like to initiate another simple real time defined minigame (like Roondra's) to keep players engaged beyond the arena. Any ideas? What type of game should it be?
I have a few more mechanical thoughts in relation to the larger game, community, and prizes, but the most important part is missing. What is the game?
(Why do I feel like I get all of my ideas backwards?)
Extended Signature
Hate to say it boss, but....
Anyhow! Aside from keeping it something somewhat automated, I got no clue. Not atm, anyhow.
So, 4, 6, 8, 10, etc on a loss? If I'm reading right, or still odd?
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
@Orileo: Yeah, 3rd to 4th, 5th to 6th, 7th to 8th etc.
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1)
DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
Another rule I'd like to propose is that Adventures not count as sources. I believe this only affects magic items and Wildshapes. I have a few reasons for this:
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1)
DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
One personal gripe I have (granted, this may just be my personal bias) is the four flag format. I've never liked the idea of winning through an objective instead of an actual victory, but I do see the merits of having something to keep the match from going to long. This particular format, however, has the side effect of just snowballing whoever gets a small lead. Whoever goes down first has less opportunity to move as many characters around to get the points, and it just goes from there. Both the worst experience for a match and the only match I've lost so far were this format (should have phrased that better somehow, they're the same match if that wasn't clear), although I didn't necessarily lose because of the format. I'd say just get rid of it entirely, I don't find it adds anything other than annoyance.
Check out my Extended signature here
Class Guides: Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard General Guides: PvP
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
I actually quite like the concept of the Four Control Points matches. I would however agree that it heavily favours whoever acts first. To mitigate this, I would suggest something like the King of the Hill matches, where the flags are only available to capture after a couple rounds.
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1)
DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
That could be a possible solution, but I'd much prefer to see the gamemode retired entirely. I simply don't find that it adds anything other than annoyance.
That being said, if I'm the only one who feels that way, I will gladly suck it up.
Alternatively, maybe shrinking the number of cap points to 2 or 3 (one in the middle, one on each side) would work as well. That would make it less prone to snowballing, as if you fall behind with 4 it's nearly impossible to catch up.
Check out my Extended signature here
Class Guides: Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard General Guides: PvP
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
I prefer that solution as well. Certainly eliminates the mentality of 'needing' to have at least one person always ready to move on to the field in order to not fall completely behind. So, similar to king of the hill, make them active around round 3?
As for shrinking it to 3 or 2.. there's potential there, and could be experimented with in the future.
With DnD beyond, getting access to such sources have never been easier! :D
... *crickets*...
Anyhow! On the subject of limiting material further, that is a somewhat slippery slope. By that same token, are we to limit things like Polymorph into Tyrannosaurs Rex, Giant Ape, and Mammoth's as well? And before anyone going 'it doesn't specificy you have to know of it', but that same logic, how does your character even know its possible to turn into this also rare things in the first place. And what's to prevent them? 'oh I read it in a book!' Really now? And what's to prevent said druid from going to these remote location to 'see' new beasts as they are printed out in the future, be it in a manual or adventure? Does anyone plan to stringently gatekeeper/observe these things to give them a chance of knowing/seeing these things?
If these were named creatures like a Barnacle Bess or so forth, then sure. No turning into those obviously because they are truly "unique" to their adventure alone. As far as doing it for limiting magic items, those are bit more easier to limit as they can confer even crazier bonuses than some better beasts form. The pool of which already feels fairly lack luster, as I don't think there's been many (if any) released outside of adventure source books since the MM and PHB's release.
That's at least my 2 cents on it.
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
Initially I picked victory conditions with positioning in mind. I wanted 2 game types that allowed players to try and hold advantageous positions and 2 that would force them to give up those positions. King of the hill, (though not always the case,) theoretically would allow a player to hold an advantageous position, and force the other player to attack. 4 CP on the other hand, one cannot win from one strong position. Survival (to a lesser extent) was intended to eventually force players to give up advantageous positions. And the aggressive monsters would theoretically be a boon to a player in a strong position.
Extended Signature
Generally I've liked CP games the most. It's the game type where the objective has had the most impact on the match. Usually when one team ignores the objective and goes on the offensive they tend to regret missing the opportunity. I'd say don't allow anyone to capture before round two. Thus Readied actions would give no immediate advantage (sort of.)
Extended Signature
On source material: I couldn't in good conscience deny players the wonderful monsters of Chult (Tomb of Annihilation) including Flying Monkeys and Brontosauruses
Extended Signature
All of the dinosaurs are reproduced in Volo's, so brontosauruses would still be available. There are even new ones in the Eberron sourcebook.
Frankly, I don't really think we need to be worried about Moon Druids becoming underpowered.
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1)
DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
Moon druids will still be broken. Period. Crag cats do not make or break the class, it will still be blatantly unfair.
Check out my Extended signature here
Class Guides: Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard General Guides: PvP
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
In regards to beasts from adventures for Wildshape and Polymorph:
The reason I brought up rarity and the "See it before you Be it" clause of Wildshape was just to provide an in-game justification, so that disallowing items and creatures from adventures makes sense in-world as well as out-of-world.
For any CR (except CR 12, which is 4 levels above the next highest beast), there will always be many good options for Wildshape and Polymorph that are not from adventures. They really don't need magical abilities like See Invisibility and Magic Resistance added on for free.
Polymorph and Moon druid Wildshape are already super powerful abilities that don't need any help to be awesome.
I've added a list of all Beasts that would no longer be allowed in the spoiler in case you want to look at it. Keep in mind that beasts below CR 1 will almost never be used.
CR 0
Almiraj
Flying Monkey
Haungharassk
Pig
Sheep
Tressym
CR 1/8
Barnacle Bess
CR 1/4
Cave Badger
Giant Riding Lizard
Guthash
Snarl
CR 1/2
Fiendish Giant Spider
Giant Sea Eel
Jaculi
Sea Lion
CR 1
Crag Cat
Giant Rocktopus
Ice Spider
Sangzor
Spider King
Two-Headed Crocodile
CR 2
Giant Crayfish
Giant White Moray Eel
Ice Spider Queen
Amphisbaena
CR 3
Giant Lightning Eel
Giant Snapping Turtle
CR 4
Giant Coral Snake
Giant Subterranean Lizard
CR 5
Hulking Crab
Large Subterranean Lizard
Obliteros
CR 8
Huge Giant Crab
CR 12
Traxigor
Horatio Hirschfeld - Squire imbued with fae powers, in the Coliseum of Conquest (W2/L1)
DM for Reavers of Harkenwold, and sometimes The Fighting Grounds of the Coliseum
I believe a few of those were "named" beasts, such as Traxigor and Snarl. But besides that point, and not to take away from it, but here's another question to maybe alleviate future issues. That being collective team turn counting the same as individual ones. As in, for simplicity sake, should it be just considered a Team Turn, somewhat eliminating issues regarding playing around turn orders based on post times? (meaning no more dancing around Moonbeam and Cloud of Daggers damage)
Or status quo?
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.