Lots of thngs state that they are stopped by a thin sheet of lead - detect magic, for one.
Assuming that your trapper has a basic grasp of magic (so knows that this works) they could easily put a lead-lined carpet over a magical trap to make it undetectable.
Whilst this is something I can logicaly see happening, I also have concerns that any magic user who uses detect magic, to be told that the carpet or door or whatever is lead-lined, would consider it a d*ck move on behalf of the dungeon master.
Has anyone used lead for this sort of thing? Did the players accept it or grumble?
I think it depends on who is lining things with lead; for instance, how would a common bandit or two-bit crime boss to know that lead has such properties? I think the first person to know these sorts of thing would be a mage, which then leads to how much time/knowledge they have on spells and the dampening effects of lead. Then one must consider who has the time and money to buy lead without drawing suspicion, especially that of others who know the functionality of lead.
So to answer your question, I don't think it's underhanded for someone like, say Acererak, to have lead-lined rooms and traps. And I think one or two every now and again, especially to protect an important passage, room or item, is fine. It keeps adventurers on their toes, and if they're casting it as a ritual they've only lost 10 minutes. But if it suddenly crops up because someone decides to use Detect Magic all the time, that I think is underhanded and undermines creative problem solving; there are other ways to stop them doing it with all manner of interruptions in those 10 minutes.
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Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
I don’t think it’s a bad thing, generally. People live in a world where there are wizards, they know what wizards can do, they’d be silly not to take precautions. I doubt everyone would do it, either owing to lack of knowledge, funds or time, but smart, well resourced people protecting something high value might.
In meta game terms, I’d say you can do it once or twice in a campaign. It’s nice to keep the players on their toes, but you do it too much and you are just screwing them.
It's not that simple to put a lead-lined rug over something, though if you're going to put a glyph of warding inside a container or behind a door, triggered by opening, you'd certainly use some lead.
In meta game terms, I’d say you can do it once or twice in a campaign. It’s nice to keep the players on their toes, but you do it too much and you are just screwing them.
No, if you don't do it enough you're screwing the person who decided to actually have skills. Detect Magic should not be expected to work past tier 1.
If you want to know RAW (spoilers for Dead in Thay):
Inside the Doomvault there is at least one magic trap that I can think of that the trapdoor is lined with lead to prevent its detection.
But if you just want my opinion I'd say that lead is somewhat expensive or difficult to aquire, and as such only rich creatures can obtain even enough to coat a small surface with a thin sheet.
If you want your players to know that something might be amiss, you could put a container with a slight amount of lead in a room near the traps. (Perhaps with ruined on it saying 'This container holds lead, which is known to the city of Waterdeep to cause cancer, spontaneous antimagic properties, birth defects, and other reproductive harm.'
But if you just want my opinion I'd say that lead is somewhat expensive or difficult to aquire
It really really isn't. Lead is substantially cheaper than copper. The main reason you don't run into it much nowadays is that we realized that it's toxic.
Do it sometimes to keep traps relevant, especially for archmages or anyone else who knows what it does, but don’t do it all the time because that might take fun away from the detect magic user.
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Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Do it sometimes to keep traps relevant, especially for archmages or anyone else who knows what it does, but don’t do it all the time because that might take fun away from the detect magic user.
Detect magic is a first level spell that can be cast as a ritual. There's really no strong reason it should remain relevant. You're not going to do it all the time because it's not always convenient to do, a lot of traps won't actually work if covered with lead, but there's no reason not to use it when it's usable. My general theory on spells is that they should remain "oh, neat" for a few levels and then fade into the background, so for a first level spell that's maybe until level 5.
Do it sometimes to keep traps relevant, especially for archmages or anyone else who knows what it does, but don’t do it all the time because that might take fun away from the detect magic user.
Detect magic is a first level spell that can be cast as a ritual. There's really no strong reason it should remain relevant. You're not going to do it all the time because it's not always convenient to do, a lot of traps won't actually work if covered with lead, but there's no reason not to use it when it's usable. My general theory on spells is that they should remain "oh, neat" for a few levels and then fade into the background, so for a first level spell that's maybe until level 5.
It's probably not common knowledge that lead can block effects, at least for the general populace, but any spellcaster knowing the Detect Magic spell knows this fact, so it wouldn't be thta surprising or outrageous to see it used to mask other magic effects purposefully. The same goes for divination spells of other nature that are blocked by thin sheet of lead as well since the countermeasure is explained in the spell itself..
It's probably not common knowledge that lead can block effects, at least for the general populace, but any spellcaster knowing the Detect Magic spell knows this fact, so it wouldn't be thta surprising or outrageous to see it used to mask other magic effects purposefully. The same goes for divination spells of other nature that are blocked by thin sheet of lead as well since the countermeasure is explained in the spell itself..
It probably depends on how many adventurers there are in the population.
However, detect magic is a first level ritual spell known by every class except fighter, barbarian, monk and rogue (and arcane trickster rogues/eldritch knights could also choose to learn it). Given how common it is, the fact that lead can block detect magic is likely pretty much common knowledge for the general populace).
Not just adventurers are spellcasters, many NPCs can be found notably in cities are as well.
Ooops - absolutely right :) ... so I would tend to think that some of the basic defenses against magic are very likely to be common knowledge. At the very least, everyone would know to keep valuables (especially anything to do with magic) in a lead lined box. They would also likely be a pretty popular item in shops. So, how common these things are would likely come down to the availability and price of lead in the game world.
It's probably not common knowledge that lead can block effects, at least for the general populace, but any spellcaster knowing the Detect Magic spell knows this fact
Given that it's on every spellcasting class's list, and the only people making magic traps are spellcasters, 100% of people making traps that can be detected by detect magic will know about lead.
Why use lead? It is expensive, messy, and you need someone that knows how to use it and not trigger the trap, then you have to eliminate the person because why keep someone who knows where the traps are and how to disarm them?
If some evil entity of a magical nature wanted to hide a magical trap they would use Nystul's Magic Aura, they could make magical traps seem non-magical or vice-versa, hide magical items in a stack of mundane items, or make that normal innocent messenger they sent to the party seem like a fiend when the paladin uses Divine Sense.
Lead is neither expensive nor messy; it's actually quite convenient to use, which is why lead abatement is such a hassle; it used to be used all over the place.
Lead is neither expensive nor messy; it's actually quite convenient to use, which is why lead abatement is such a hassle; it used to be used all over the place.
Yep - lead is easily worked, easily maleable - it was frequently used for water pipes, pots, serving ware etc among other applications.
The first article below is pretty cool. Lead was used in huge quantities constructing ancient cities. It sounds like they would coat iron bracing with lead likely to inhibit rusting.
"Due to its very low melting point, lead was used in large quantities to coat the iron brackets and anchors that held the stone blocks together. It has been estimated, for example, that the construction of the famous Porta Nigra in Trier (D) needed seven tonnes of lead for this purpose (Schwinden 2001). Additionally, buildings were covered with lead sheet, and statues were set in their sockets with lead. The metal was used, among others, for the production of pipes, containers, sarcophagi, fillings, product labels, brine evaporation tanks and slingshots. Ships also used lead for anchors, net sinkers, for the manufacture of parts for the pumps or simply as ballast in the hold (Rosen and Galili 2007). The average yearly consumption of the metal during Roman times has been estimated to be between 80,000 and 100,000 tons"
Lol ... cool trivia ... but lead was used for a lot of applications in antiquity and in large quantities.
Do people normally rely on detect magic to detect traps? Plenty of traps are purely mechanical, so we've never expected that spell to cover trap detection.
Anyway, I think it would depend on the sophistication of the trap-maker. Mage Tower? Magic traps would be lead-lined. Goblin cave? Traps would not be lead-lined (and probably not magical).
Do people normally rely on detect magic to detect traps? Plenty of traps are purely mechanical, so we've never expected that spell to cover trap detection.
Anyway, I think it would depend on the sophistication of the trap-maker. Mage Tower? Magic traps would be lead-lined. Goblin cave? Traps would not be lead-lined (and probably not magical).
This exactly
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Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Lots of thngs state that they are stopped by a thin sheet of lead - detect magic, for one.
Assuming that your trapper has a basic grasp of magic (so knows that this works) they could easily put a lead-lined carpet over a magical trap to make it undetectable.
Whilst this is something I can logicaly see happening, I also have concerns that any magic user who uses detect magic, to be told that the carpet or door or whatever is lead-lined, would consider it a d*ck move on behalf of the dungeon master.
Has anyone used lead for this sort of thing? Did the players accept it or grumble?
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I think it depends on who is lining things with lead; for instance, how would a common bandit or two-bit crime boss to know that lead has such properties? I think the first person to know these sorts of thing would be a mage, which then leads to how much time/knowledge they have on spells and the dampening effects of lead. Then one must consider who has the time and money to buy lead without drawing suspicion, especially that of others who know the functionality of lead.
So to answer your question, I don't think it's underhanded for someone like, say Acererak, to have lead-lined rooms and traps. And I think one or two every now and again, especially to protect an important passage, room or item, is fine. It keeps adventurers on their toes, and if they're casting it as a ritual they've only lost 10 minutes. But if it suddenly crops up because someone decides to use Detect Magic all the time, that I think is underhanded and undermines creative problem solving; there are other ways to stop them doing it with all manner of interruptions in those 10 minutes.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
I don’t think it’s a bad thing, generally. People live in a world where there are wizards, they know what wizards can do, they’d be silly not to take precautions.
I doubt everyone would do it, either owing to lack of knowledge, funds or time, but smart, well resourced people protecting something high value might.
In meta game terms, I’d say you can do it once or twice in a campaign. It’s nice to keep the players on their toes, but you do it too much and you are just screwing them.
It's not that simple to put a lead-lined rug over something, though if you're going to put a glyph of warding inside a container or behind a door, triggered by opening, you'd certainly use some lead.
No, if you don't do it enough you're screwing the person who decided to actually have skills. Detect Magic should not be expected to work past tier 1.
If you want to know RAW (spoilers for Dead in Thay):
Inside the Doomvault there is at least one magic trap that I can think of that the trapdoor is lined with lead to prevent its detection.
But if you just want my opinion I'd say that lead is somewhat expensive or difficult to aquire, and as such only rich creatures can obtain even enough to coat a small surface with a thin sheet.
If you want your players to know that something might be amiss, you could put a container with a slight amount of lead in a room near the traps. (Perhaps with ruined on it saying 'This container holds lead, which is known to the city of Waterdeep to cause cancer, spontaneous antimagic properties, birth defects, and other reproductive harm.'
It really really isn't. Lead is substantially cheaper than copper. The main reason you don't run into it much nowadays is that we realized that it's toxic.
Do it sometimes to keep traps relevant, especially for archmages or anyone else who knows what it does, but don’t do it all the time because that might take fun away from the detect magic user.
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
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Detect magic is a first level spell that can be cast as a ritual. There's really no strong reason it should remain relevant. You're not going to do it all the time because it's not always convenient to do, a lot of traps won't actually work if covered with lead, but there's no reason not to use it when it's usable. My general theory on spells is that they should remain "oh, neat" for a few levels and then fade into the background, so for a first level spell that's maybe until level 5.
Alternately, just cast Nystul's Magic Aura on the trap.
Shield would like to have a word with you, and so would absorb elements and eldritch blast. And healing word, and goodberry, and you get the point
But magic aura is a good option.
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
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If you're putting lead rugs/sheets/whatever over magical traps to keep Detect Magic from detecting them, how do the traps detect the adventurers?
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It's probably not common knowledge that lead can block effects, at least for the general populace, but any spellcaster knowing the Detect Magic spell knows this fact, so it wouldn't be thta surprising or outrageous to see it used to mask other magic effects purposefully. The same goes for divination spells of other nature that are blocked by thin sheet of lead as well since the countermeasure is explained in the spell itself..
It probably depends on how many adventurers there are in the population.
However, detect magic is a first level ritual spell known by every class except fighter, barbarian, monk and rogue (and arcane trickster rogues/eldritch knights could also choose to learn it). Given how common it is, the fact that lead can block detect magic is likely pretty much common knowledge for the general populace).
Not just adventurers are spellcasters, many NPCs can be found notably in cities are as well.
Ooops - absolutely right :) ... so I would tend to think that some of the basic defenses against magic are very likely to be common knowledge. At the very least, everyone would know to keep valuables (especially anything to do with magic) in a lead lined box. They would also likely be a pretty popular item in shops. So, how common these things are would likely come down to the availability and price of lead in the game world.
Given that it's on every spellcasting class's list, and the only people making magic traps are spellcasters, 100% of people making traps that can be detected by detect magic will know about lead.
Why use lead? It is expensive, messy, and you need someone that knows how to use it and not trigger the trap, then you have to eliminate the person because why keep someone who knows where the traps are and how to disarm them?
If some evil entity of a magical nature wanted to hide a magical trap they would use Nystul's Magic Aura, they could make magical traps seem non-magical or vice-versa, hide magical items in a stack of mundane items, or make that normal innocent messenger they sent to the party seem like a fiend when the paladin uses Divine Sense.
Lead is neither expensive nor messy; it's actually quite convenient to use, which is why lead abatement is such a hassle; it used to be used all over the place.
Yep - lead is easily worked, easily maleable - it was frequently used for water pipes, pots, serving ware etc among other applications.
The first article below is pretty cool. Lead was used in huge quantities constructing ancient cities. It sounds like they would coat iron bracing with lead likely to inhibit rusting.
"Due to its very low melting point, lead was used in large quantities to coat the iron brackets and anchors that held the stone blocks together. It has been estimated, for example, that the construction of the famous Porta Nigra in Trier (D) needed seven tonnes of lead for this purpose (Schwinden 2001). Additionally, buildings were covered with lead sheet, and statues were set in their sockets with lead. The metal was used, among others, for the production of pipes, containers, sarcophagi, fillings, product labels, brine evaporation tanks and slingshots. Ships also used lead for anchors, net sinkers, for the manufacture of parts for the pumps or simply as ballast in the hold (Rosen and Galili 2007). The average yearly consumption of the metal during Roman times has been estimated to be between 80,000 and 100,000 tons"
Lol ... cool trivia ... but lead was used for a lot of applications in antiquity and in large quantities.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-009-0017-0
https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceshot-did-lead-poisoning-bring-down-ancient-rome
Do people normally rely on detect magic to detect traps? Plenty of traps are purely mechanical, so we've never expected that spell to cover trap detection.
Anyway, I think it would depend on the sophistication of the trap-maker. Mage Tower? Magic traps would be lead-lined. Goblin cave? Traps would not be lead-lined (and probably not magical).
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(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This exactly
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