I apologize in advance because I know most of y'all know the rules and lingo but it makes more sense for me to explain it this way.
What's the general concisus about ability checks versus skill checks. My interpretation is an ability check is a broad stroke tool to measure something solely based on your 6 core abilities: STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA. It does not apply however to the list of skills which yes use the ability modifiers to aid in proficiencies but are measured by training so it is a totally different check than an ability check.
With that said, here is the scenario:
A player is a halfling. With the 'lucky' racial feature they re-rolls all Nat 1s once on abilities checks, saving throws, and attacks. It does not affect however the list skill checks. I explained skill checks are totally a separate things from ability checks. Am I correct in preventing this re-roll on a Nat 1 rolls for a skill check on perception or not? I am basing this solely off rules and not DM preference. I literally think that ability and skill checks are two totally different things.
Thoughts?
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Sometimes a Nat 1 tells a better story than a Nat 20 ever could.
There is no such part of the game as a "skill check" despite that being a phrase commonly used by players of the game (due to prior editions having a skill check as a part of the game).
This is why the game text has sections such as "Using Ability Scores", and uses phrasings such as "make a Wisdom (Perception) check" - all rolls to which being proficient in a skill would result in adding your proficiency bonus to are ability checks.
The section of the rules that covers skills is a place to see this clearly, so I have linked it and will quote it as well (bold added for emphasis):
"So a character who has proficiency in the Stealth skill is particularly good at Dexterity checks related to sneaking and hiding."
To bring this back to an answer to your question regarding Lucky; No, you are not correct in preventing a re-roll on a natural 1, because it is not a "perception skill check" - it is a "Wisdom (perception) ability check."
So basically a player could re-rolls ALL Nat 1s as a halfling?
Yup. Note that you only get to reroll once per roll with a halfling's Lucky, though. It's 1d20.rerollOnce(=1)+X, not 1d20.reroll(=1)+X; 2, not 13. Halflings still have a 1/400 chance of critically failing a given d20 roll.
The Player's Handbook is over 300 pages, and that includes quite a bit of streamlining compared to previous editions. Simple rules midunderstandings are to be expected!
So basically a player could re-rolls ALL Nat 1s as a halfling?
except for death saves :)
Edit: (there is always an exception)
Lucky applies to death saves - they are saving throws, even though they are not tied to a specific ability score. The death saving throw rules even say "You are in the hands of fate now, aided only by spells and features that improve your chances of succeeding on a saving throw." That's why Lucky applies, and also why benefits like a ring of protection or a paladin's aura of protection also apply.
Because Ability Checks are so vague, I did some research and found some great insights on various message boards and DM posts. This eliminates alot of table confusion, but in the end it's up the the DM, and hopefully yours isn't a rule nazi:
Saving Throw vs Ability Checks - Saving throws are generally used when your character cannot prepare for something like a Fireball, dart trap, or avoiding falling debris. Ability Checks are for things your character initiates like Climbing a Wall or using a Heal Kit. So a character who intentionally tries to slide across a slick surface makes an Acrobatics check, vs a player who suddenly slips on a Grease spell makes a Dexterity save.
Ability Check vs Skill Check - Ability Check is a general term that includes dice rolls related to the player's Ability Scores, and are not considered Attacks or Saving Throws. Skills are generalized areas study that players may specialize in, thus giving them a proficiency bonus to the roll. Because most players get very few skill proficiencies that they invest in, and because 5th Edition is designed to be "simplified" D&D, it's recommended to follow the "closest thing" rule. Bashing a door down? Closest thing is Athletics. Examining engineering schematics? Closest thing is Investigation. Want to juggle knives? Closest thing is Sleight of Hand. Want to grab a branch while falling? Closest thing is Athletics. In other words, don't force a player to make a check with only the Strength bonus, when she specifically invested in Athletics that's specifically designed to cover all feats of physical strength.
Group checks - Everyone gets to roll and if at least half succeed, the group succeeds. For example, if an entire party is trying to be stealthy.
Helping - You can help someone perform a skill, if you have proficiency in it. Need help picking a lock? Someone else with proficiency in Thieves tools can give you Advantage on your roll. Need help determining what the magic runes mean? Someone else with Arcana proficiency can give you Advantage on your roll. In some cases, a DM may ask the helper to make a basic help check (DC10) in order to give the other player Advantage.
Passive Success - The DM can save time by making anything a Passive Check of 10 + Skill Bonus (+5 advantage and -5 disadvantage). So if a DM wants to save time, a Wizard with +8 Arcana may automatically succeed a DC16 Arcana check because her passive bonus is 18.
Passive DCs - If you need a DC for a skill check, like player trying to persuade a shop keeper, you can use the shop keeper's passive Insight vs the player's Persuasion roll. Or make a Stealth roll vs an enemy's passive Perception as the DC.
Tools & Skill Advantage - Xanathar's Guide added additional options that answer the question of what bonus to use when you have proficiency in both a tool and related skill. In general, if you qualify for this, you make the Tool check using the highest bonus with Advantage. So if you have Herbalism +5 and Nature +8, and you're looking for herbs in the jungle, you make a Nature check +8 with Advantage. If you have a Disguise kit +10 and Deception +4, your Disguise check roll gets +10 with Advantage.
Skill Roll DCs - Optionally, the DM might give you a DC based on your total Skill roll. For example, rolling a total of 17 on your Disguise Kit check, would make the DC 17 for any future Insight checks to detect deception. Using this option often reflects the level of expertise a player has when double downing on Tools and Skills that compliment each other (i.e. Disguise and Deception).
I might understand this wrong. But it sounds like, a warlock with the pact of the talisman, should be able to use it for failed skill rolls. Or am i misunderstanding it?
I might understand this wrong. But it sounds like, a warlock with the pact of the talisman, should be able to use it for failed skill rolls. Or am i misunderstanding it?
RAW, there is no such thing as a “skill check,” that’s just what people call them colloquially. They are just “ability checks” that can also apply a Proficiency bonus if you are proficient with in that skill. So yes, since skill rolls are just Ability Checks, and since a Warlock with the Talisman can apply the bonus to any Ability check, they can apply the bonus to the roll.
Hi y'all
I apologize in advance because I know most of y'all know the rules and lingo but it makes more sense for me to explain it this way.
What's the general concisus about ability checks versus skill checks. My interpretation is an ability check is a broad stroke tool to measure something solely based on your 6 core abilities: STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA. It does not apply however to the list of skills which yes use the ability modifiers to aid in proficiencies but are measured by training so it is a totally different check than an ability check.
With that said, here is the scenario:
A player is a halfling. With the 'lucky' racial feature they re-rolls all Nat 1s once on abilities checks, saving throws, and attacks. It does not affect however the list skill checks. I explained skill checks are totally a separate things from ability checks. Am I correct in preventing this re-roll on a Nat 1 rolls for a skill check on perception or not? I am basing this solely off rules and not DM preference. I literally think that ability and skill checks are two totally different things.
Thoughts?
Sometimes a Nat 1 tells a better story than a Nat 20 ever could.
There is no such part of the game as a "skill check" despite that being a phrase commonly used by players of the game (due to prior editions having a skill check as a part of the game).
This is why the game text has sections such as "Using Ability Scores", and uses phrasings such as "make a Wisdom (Perception) check" - all rolls to which being proficient in a skill would result in adding your proficiency bonus to are ability checks.
The section of the rules that covers skills is a place to see this clearly, so I have linked it and will quote it as well (bold added for emphasis):
"So a character who has proficiency in the Stealth skill is particularly good at Dexterity checks related to sneaking and hiding."
To bring this back to an answer to your question regarding Lucky; No, you are not correct in preventing a re-roll on a natural 1, because it is not a "perception skill check" - it is a "Wisdom (perception) ability check."
Skill checks are a subsection of ability checks.
Edit: Could've sworn I saw something that said that somewhere.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
So basically a player could re-rolls ALL Nat 1s as a halfling?
Sometimes a Nat 1 tells a better story than a Nat 20 ever could.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Welp I feel silly. I swear sometimes it's printed right in front of you yet still confusing as well as open to interpretation! Thanks guys!
Sometimes a Nat 1 tells a better story than a Nat 20 ever could.
The Player's Handbook is over 300 pages, and that includes quite a bit of streamlining compared to previous editions. Simple rules midunderstandings are to be expected!
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
good to know!
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
Because Ability Checks are so vague, I did some research and found some great insights on various message boards and DM posts. This eliminates alot of table confusion, but in the end it's up the the DM, and hopefully yours isn't a rule nazi:
I might understand this wrong. But it sounds like, a warlock with the pact of the talisman, should be able to use it for failed skill rolls. Or am i misunderstanding it?
A skill check is just another name for an ability check that spefiically apply a skill proficiency bonus.
Initiative is another named ability check used in a specific context for rexemple.
RAW, there is no such thing as a “skill check,” that’s just what people call them colloquially. They are just “ability checks” that can also apply a Proficiency bonus if you are proficient with in that skill. So yes, since skill rolls are just Ability Checks, and since a Warlock with the Talisman can apply the bonus to any Ability check, they can apply the bonus to the roll.
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Yep, which means features like a Bard's Jack of All Trades apply to initiative. The same for Dispel Magic and Counterspell ability checks.
Yes spellcasting is yet another named ability check used in a specific context. We could include ability checks used to escape or use tools.
thx all. Fast help