Running a campaign and my players are just setting EVERYTHING on fire with Create Bonfire. Blocking doors, blocking hallways, setting groups of enemies on fire. Is this me or is it really overpowered? Kind of wondering what to do about this spell as it is just getting used to the extent it feels like it unbalances the game play pretty hard.
Just to be clear, they didn't set the door on fire, they put fires in a hallway as a way to keep a group of attackers from reaching them, but this was just after they set a whole camp of raiders on fire, used fire to spook some horses and just generally went a little pyro-happy.
Just remember that it's concentration. Only 1 is allowed at a time. If another concentration spell is cast, it's gone. Also it does not ignite flammable objects, as it doesn't specifically say so in the spell description.
I read Create Bonfire yesterday, and I think I read that it does indeed ignite inanimate objects that are unattended, but probably the DM can handle that easily with a check with a DC that depends on the material. so it's really unlikely that everything burns.
Just remember that it's concentration. Only 1 is allowed at a time. If another concentration spell is cast, it's gone. Also it does not ignite flammable objects, as it doesn't specifically say so in the spell description.
Create Bonfire is a cool spell, but I suspect your interpretation of it may have made it overpowered. Remember:
It's only a 5-foot cube. E.g. one normal sized-creature/grid square.
It can make a doorway hard to get through, but not 'block' it. It's a bonfire, not a Wall of Fire. One good leap and they're through it unharmed.
It should not be blocking hallways due to its 5-foot cube size, unless the hallways are very, very narrow.
It does not set enemies on fire. It only deals its damage, when it says it does its damage and a saving throw is failed. It only ignites actual objects, and that's only when they are not being worn or carried.
If your enemies are having a big problem with the fires, have them target the person casting it. They lose concentration, the fire goes away. One enemy leaps over the fire, scans the group and spots the mage -- then they rush at them in an attempt to help their less athletic comrades pass by breaking the mage's concentration.
MellieDM has a great point about them targeting the spell's caster. I'm not sure what CR enemies you're throwing at them, but you can also substitute any of your spellcasting monster's 3rd level spells with Counterspell.
Yeah, I think my impressions are all wrong... they aren't BONEFIRE bonefires... you'd be able to see over the thing and if you can do that, you can shoot over it... shoot a long bow at that nice, juicy, low AC spell caster.
5 ft. can't block the hall, but if you have two people casting, see, that's 10 feet and that goes wall to wall. That's what they did last night.
Still... this "flames not too high" thing is the winner-winner-chicken-dinner answer, me thinks.
5 ft. can't block the hall, but if you have two people casting, see, that's 10 feet and that goes wall to wall. That's what they did last night.
Even if they block the path, a monster can just run through it. In the worst case they take about the same damage they would've taken if the casters attacked them directly. Using concentration for this really sucks. They could be using really good spells like Faerie Fire, Entangle, Hex or Flaming Sphere (which actually is solid) if they weren't using this tactic.
It's a good spell, as it is a ranged cantrip attack spell with a save. This makes it work as a ranged attack as well as a melee attack, without ever having disadvantage. This fact is balanced by it's concentration attribute, which makes any other spell you concentrate on fizzle if you cast this. As cantrip spells are supposed to be your fallback option, this is a big disadvantage.
Players can always set a door on fire. They don't need a spell for that. Just some iron and flint, etc.
If you want to stop the party with a door, you'd better make it magical, secret and/or really sturdy. Even if they don't have any sources of fire, what stops them from smashing it in with an axe/hammer? If your party can't open a locked wooden door without a key, maybe they are in the wrong business :p
You can only concentrate on one spell at a time, usually these are very powerful. Later in the game, your players will probably want to concentrate on other spells. The damage also falls off later in the game, and you will have enemies that will happily charge through the flames, because they don't care about a couple points of fire damage. Don't give the spell too much power. If someone passes through/stands in it, they will take fire damage (if they fail their save), but they won't start burning.
If you really feel like the spell is troublesome and you are afraid it is too strong, you can always increase the difficulty of encounters. When I build encounters I often give the enemies extra abilities (a burning zombie is more fun than just adding another zombie), since they usually come prepared. Most of my players also know how to build a strong character, and while they don't min/max, they do usually pick the more viable options.
Another option is to create an environment in which they can't use the spell (e.g. a dungeon with mold on the walls that would turn the entire room into an inferno when lit on fire) or add some fire resistant enemies. My suggestion is not to overuse this though.
In this instance they opened the door just fine, but they then used the fire to keep other enemies from attacking them. I think the solutions for me in this situation are to really track concentration and to treat the fire more like, ya know, a decent campfire instead of a "WALL OF FIRE," which is more what I was thinking of in my head. So, archers will be able to shoot over the fire and others will be able to run through it. Just before this part of the adventure I had put in a Red Guard Drake (resistant to fire) and I think I may have a couple more of them as part of what is going on.
The party is only 3rd level, so they are fighting lower level monsters.
I have a plan for next week though... It's going to work out.
Players can always set a door on fire. They don't need a spell for that. Just some iron and flint, etc.
That is a terrible way to set a door on fire, doors have a very large mass, are usually aged and treated wood. It takes a lot of effort to light one on fire... Even a old timey DnD door before regulations on the flammability of doors.
That said, I agree with Petward, there are far easier ways to take down a door. Any locksmith will tell you the weakest part of a door is the frame not the door. IE: If I kick in your front door the door will be fine, the dead bolt will still work, but the door frame will splinter. IRL security doors need with steel reinforced door jams for this reason. The next weak points are the hinges of a door (if the players ask if it swings IN or OUT they are asking are the hinges visible) Anyone can take a door off it's hinges with a screw driver and a hammer.
To me, the big problem with using Bonfire to burn down a door is that the door IS ON FIRE. Once that is going it's hard to put out, it'll generate a lot of smoke and... is the roof? the roof? is the roof on fire? Also probable there will be burn damage inside the room.
As others have said Bonfire doesn't *block* access to the hallway, it means the target takes a Dex save to avoid the flames upon entering it or ending a turn there. My only thought is if that is an inclusive or exclusive "or". If the or is inclusive the creature makes a save when they enter the square AND when they end a turn there, but the designers probably mean it as an exclusive "or" and so you only ever take 1 save.
That said, no one wants to STAND in a fire while also fighting the Paladin.
Create Bonfire? Things like this are why I always have my (non-beast) enemies with ranged options. I don't particularly care about a bonfire blocking the hallway - it also means that you can't reach my monsters, and they can all still damage to you.
"My only thought is if that is an inclusive or exclusive "or". If the or is inclusive the creature makes a save when they enter the square AND when they end a turn there, but the designers probably mean it as an exclusive "or" and so you only ever take 1 save."
I disagree. If you are daft enough to both step into a hazard AND stay there, then you deserve both chances to take damage, AND entry into the Darwin Awards. (For people removing themselves from the gene pool in creative ways.)
It's not like a hot tub where you eventually get used to the temperature. (Credit for the analogy goes to Bart Simpson, who used it in a discussion of Hell!)
I am also concerned about a spell that conjures a bonfire but forces you to concentrate - that's like giving me a cake...in an unbreakable glass case. You should relax around the bonfire, roast marshmallows and pixies, heat up pokers, brew a pot of tea/coffee.
I disagree. If you are daft enough to both step into a hazard AND stay there, then you deserve both chances to take damage, AND entry into the Darwin Awards. (For people removing themselves from the gene pool in creative ways.)
I disagree with your disagreement and therefore agree with @FullMetalBunny ;)
A cantrip will not do damage twice per round. This is just too much for a cantrip. Fluff wise, the fire burns for xd8 damage per round if you touch it, be it via moving in or via already standing there and staying. It also wouldn't really make sense since you would take more damage if you start your turn outside and move in, in comparison to starting in the flame and staying there the whole round.
It would make the flames more sticky though, from a tactics point of view. Staying in and attacking would do less damage, than, for example, cycling group members for the attack spot.
@Nils, while respecting your decision to disagree with my disagreement of Mr. Bunny, I will add two last thoughts - one agreeing with you, because it is Friday, and one advancing my view point, because despite the day, I am still fond of a good debate. :)
1) RAW : You are probably right. RAI : You are probably right.
2) Your interpretation of of the rules encourages people to stay in the middle of a bonfire once they are there. Joan of Arc and several hundred 'strange old women' who survived a good dunking might disagree were you to contact their spirits.
I believe that your interpretation allows for more 'gaming' of the situation, as you rightly point out. Step in, notice it hurts, step out : duration in flames 2 seconds? Step in, attack,end turn, attack, step out : duration in flames probably 10 seconds.
And here's the contradiction to prove my mental instability : If someone were forced into the inferno (yeah, exaggeration) then one set of damage seems reasonable, and I wouldn't try to enforce my version of the ruling, assuming that said victims is thrashing and leaping to avoid extreme pain and soot damage to his clothes.
For all that we talk about 'role-playing', I think most of us happily ignore how much things actually hurt, and blissfully allow our characters to face mutilation in the name of entertainment. I sincerely hope that when I die the afterlife is not filled with my D&D characters all waiting to exact revenge for all the horrible things I have forced them to do over the years.....
The idea of Create Bonfire being used for the named usage of the spell still holds; you just need to put a bunch of wood in a stack on that square first. Once you do that, your caster overlaps the cantrip for one round and then you have a roaring campfire when they drop concentration. Much faster than flint and steel would be and you could maybe get away without building the stack with tinder and kindling to light first and go straight for fuel logs.
Without the wood you're just creating a constant flame.
Now, depending on your definition of concentration and how much concentration is needed, the caster could re-cast the cantrip every minute and functionally keep it going if the party needed to have a bonfire (cooking, warmth, light, burning dead bodies, etc) in an area without fuel (indoors, wet environment, desert, etc).
Do what my DM did recently to impulsive PC in our group, cause their pyro happiness to have repercussions & burn things that would've been of value to PCs.
"Ohhh your gonna use another bonfire... Okay there was secret room below the fire that burnt invaluable info, they seemed to be filled with treasure maps! Ohhh well all gone!"
DM actually had PC just sit at desk BT it was trapped & classic Red, burnt all the info inside the desk. Idk feel like ya you don't wanna stop them from being them BT make them consider if that's really there best use of magic since if they can cast that cantrip I assume they can be more than just cremators in the world of D&D :P
I am also a Pyro so do love the cantrip, bt not more then mixing in a handful of other cool ones like fire bolt, toll the dead, & green flame blade idk also read other ppls vibe too its concentration spell so just start have ppl shoot arrows if your party is boring/ annoying as DM. Also its cantrip fire so not OP like DM & be like:
"You hear shouting from the other side of the fire (cough since they put fires in hallways they can't lie & say they can see everything thru fire so give them one round then beginning of next round or even better right after bonfire caster ends turn) then water puts out your flames!!! Jajajaja
Running a campaign and my players are just setting EVERYTHING on fire with Create Bonfire. Blocking doors, blocking hallways, setting groups of enemies on fire. Is this me or is it really overpowered? Kind of wondering what to do about this spell as it is just getting used to the extent it feels like it unbalances the game play pretty hard.
Just to be clear, they didn't set the door on fire, they put fires in a hallway as a way to keep a group of attackers from reaching them, but this was just after they set a whole camp of raiders on fire, used fire to spook some horses and just generally went a little pyro-happy.
Just remember that it's concentration. Only 1 is allowed at a time. If another concentration spell is cast, it's gone. Also it does not ignite flammable objects, as it doesn't specifically say so in the spell description.
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I read Create Bonfire yesterday, and I think I read that it does indeed ignite inanimate objects that are unattended, but probably the DM can handle that easily with a check with a DC that depends on the material. so it's really unlikely that everything burns.
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It certainly can be used to start fires. The question is if it should be used to burn down doors, instead of finding keys or whatever.
Zev Georg Mir, creator of Michtim: Fluffy Adventures
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Create Bonfire is a cool spell, but I suspect your interpretation of it may have made it overpowered. Remember:
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If your enemies are having a big problem with the fires, have them target the person casting it. They lose concentration, the fire goes away. One enemy leaps over the fire, scans the group and spots the mage -- then they rush at them in an attempt to help their less athletic comrades pass by breaking the mage's concentration.
MellieDM has a great point about them targeting the spell's caster. I'm not sure what CR enemies you're throwing at them, but you can also substitute any of your spellcasting monster's 3rd level spells with Counterspell.
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Yeah, I think my impressions are all wrong... they aren't BONEFIRE bonefires... you'd be able to see over the thing and if you can do that, you can shoot over it... shoot a long bow at that nice, juicy, low AC spell caster.
5 ft. can't block the hall, but if you have two people casting, see, that's 10 feet and that goes wall to wall. That's what they did last night.
Still... this "flames not too high" thing is the winner-winner-chicken-dinner answer, me thinks.
Thanks.
Even if they block the path, a monster can just run through it. In the worst case they take about the same damage they would've taken if the casters attacked them directly. Using concentration for this really sucks. They could be using really good spells like Faerie Fire, Entangle, Hex or Flaming Sphere (which actually is solid) if they weren't using this tactic.
It's a good spell, as it is a ranged cantrip attack spell with a save. This makes it work as a ranged attack as well as a melee attack, without ever having disadvantage. This fact is balanced by it's concentration attribute, which makes any other spell you concentrate on fizzle if you cast this. As cantrip spells are supposed to be your fallback option, this is a big disadvantage.
Players can always set a door on fire. They don't need a spell for that. Just some iron and flint, etc.
If you want to stop the party with a door, you'd better make it magical, secret and/or really sturdy. Even if they don't have any sources of fire, what stops them from smashing it in with an axe/hammer? If your party can't open a locked wooden door without a key, maybe they are in the wrong business :p
You can only concentrate on one spell at a time, usually these are very powerful. Later in the game, your players will probably want to concentrate on other spells. The damage also falls off later in the game, and you will have enemies that will happily charge through the flames, because they don't care about a couple points of fire damage. Don't give the spell too much power. If someone passes through/stands in it, they will take fire damage (if they fail their save), but they won't start burning.
If you really feel like the spell is troublesome and you are afraid it is too strong, you can always increase the difficulty of encounters. When I build encounters I often give the enemies extra abilities (a burning zombie is more fun than just adding another zombie), since they usually come prepared. Most of my players also know how to build a strong character, and while they don't min/max, they do usually pick the more viable options.
Another option is to create an environment in which they can't use the spell (e.g. a dungeon with mold on the walls that would turn the entire room into an inferno when lit on fire) or add some fire resistant enemies. My suggestion is not to overuse this though.
In this instance they opened the door just fine, but they then used the fire to keep other enemies from attacking them. I think the solutions for me in this situation are to really track concentration and to treat the fire more like, ya know, a decent campfire instead of a "WALL OF FIRE," which is more what I was thinking of in my head. So, archers will be able to shoot over the fire and others will be able to run through it. Just before this part of the adventure I had put in a Red Guard Drake (resistant to fire) and I think I may have a couple more of them as part of what is going on.
The party is only 3rd level, so they are fighting lower level monsters.
I have a plan for next week though... It's going to work out.
The next weak points are the hinges of a door (if the players ask if it swings IN or OUT they are asking are the hinges visible) Anyone can take a door off it's hinges with a screw driver and a hammer.
As others have said Bonfire doesn't *block* access to the hallway, it means the target takes a Dex save to avoid the flames upon entering it or ending a turn there.
My only thought is if that is an inclusive or exclusive "or". If the or is inclusive the creature makes a save when they enter the square AND when they end a turn there, but the designers probably mean it as an exclusive "or" and so you only ever take 1 save.
That said, no one wants to STAND in a fire while also fighting the Paladin.
Create Bonfire? Things like this are why I always have my (non-beast) enemies with ranged options. I don't particularly care about a bonfire blocking the hallway - it also means that you can't reach my monsters, and they can all still damage to you.
@FullMetalBunny
"My only thought is if that is an inclusive or exclusive "or". If the or is inclusive the creature makes a save when they enter the square AND when they end a turn there, but the designers probably mean it as an exclusive "or" and so you only ever take 1 save."
I disagree. If you are daft enough to both step into a hazard AND stay there, then you deserve both chances to take damage, AND entry into the Darwin Awards. (For people removing themselves from the gene pool in creative ways.)
It's not like a hot tub where you eventually get used to the temperature. (Credit for the analogy goes to Bart Simpson, who used it in a discussion of Hell!)
I am also concerned about a spell that conjures a bonfire but forces you to concentrate - that's like giving me a cake...in an unbreakable glass case. You should relax around the bonfire, roast marshmallows and pixies, heat up pokers, brew a pot of tea/coffee.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
@Nils, while respecting your decision to disagree with my disagreement of Mr. Bunny, I will add two last thoughts - one agreeing with you, because it is Friday, and one advancing my view point, because despite the day, I am still fond of a good debate. :)
1) RAW : You are probably right. RAI : You are probably right.
2) Your interpretation of of the rules encourages people to stay in the middle of a bonfire once they are there. Joan of Arc and several hundred 'strange old women' who survived a good dunking might disagree were you to contact their spirits.
I believe that your interpretation allows for more 'gaming' of the situation, as you rightly point out.
Step in, notice it hurts, step out : duration in flames 2 seconds?
Step in, attack,end turn, attack, step out : duration in flames probably 10 seconds.
And here's the contradiction to prove my mental instability : If someone were forced into the inferno (yeah, exaggeration) then one set of damage seems reasonable, and I wouldn't try to enforce my version of the ruling, assuming that said victims is thrashing and leaping to avoid extreme pain and soot damage to his clothes.
For all that we talk about 'role-playing', I think most of us happily ignore how much things actually hurt, and blissfully allow our characters to face mutilation in the name of entertainment. I sincerely hope that when I die the afterlife is not filled with my D&D characters all waiting to exact revenge for all the horrible things I have forced them to do over the years.....
Roleplaying since Runequest.
The idea of Create Bonfire being used for the named usage of the spell still holds; you just need to put a bunch of wood in a stack on that square first. Once you do that, your caster overlaps the cantrip for one round and then you have a roaring campfire when they drop concentration. Much faster than flint and steel would be and you could maybe get away without building the stack with tinder and kindling to light first and go straight for fuel logs.
Without the wood you're just creating a constant flame.
Now, depending on your definition of concentration and how much concentration is needed, the caster could re-cast the cantrip every minute and functionally keep it going if the party needed to have a bonfire (cooking, warmth, light, burning dead bodies, etc) in an area without fuel (indoors, wet environment, desert, etc).
Do what my DM did recently to impulsive PC in our group, cause their pyro happiness to have repercussions & burn things that would've been of value to PCs.
"Ohhh your gonna use another bonfire... Okay there was secret room below the fire that burnt invaluable info, they seemed to be filled with treasure maps! Ohhh well all gone!"
DM actually had PC just sit at desk BT it was trapped & classic Red, burnt all the info inside the desk. Idk feel like ya you don't wanna stop them from being them BT make them consider if that's really there best use of magic since if they can cast that cantrip I assume they can be more than just cremators in the world of D&D :P
I am also a Pyro so do love the cantrip, bt not more then mixing in a handful of other cool ones like fire bolt, toll the dead, & green flame blade idk also read other ppls vibe too its concentration spell so just start have ppl shoot arrows if your party is boring/ annoying as DM. Also its cantrip fire so not OP like DM & be like:
"You hear shouting from the other side of the fire (cough since they put fires in hallways they can't lie & say they can see everything thru fire so give them one round then beginning of next round or even better right after bonfire caster ends turn) then water puts out your flames!!! Jajajaja