Using the strength calculator for jump distances with creatures that are much faster than humans seems inaccurate in a way that doesn't seem to help play, regardless of other balanced aspects of movement in game. After all, the Dire Wolf is nearly twice as fast as most characters, and being a four legged creature has very different jumping mechanics.
In a quick check I found that a wolf can jump on average 16ft horizontally. Strength in 5e would give it 12ft. So it does seem that speed should be involved. A wolf in 5e runs 40ft per round (or 80 dashing).
A Dire Wolf would have STR 17 for a 17ft jump. It runs at 50ft per round (100ft dash).
I know speed is not accurate to what a creature can do in reality within the 5e system, but jumping distance seems like it should be. (This is all coming from watching an instagram post of a Tiger doing a standing jump of about 12-14 feet without moving beforehand).
It seems like if 30ft is base speed, then something like adding STR plus 5ft/10 speed over 30 would get closer to accurate. That would get a wolf to 17 and a Dire Wolf to 27ft.
While that seems like a lot, a horse (with rider) has jumped 28ft! With this system that would get it to 31ft (presumably without rider). ;) (Mike Powell also got to 29ft 4")
Because Strength determines how far you can jump unless noted otherwise, Strenght and Speed both limit jumping and so a creature strong yet slow will be limited just as much as one fast but weak. A dire wolf has a speed of 50 feet and a Strength of 17 so when it makes a jump, it can cover up to 17 feet or leap up to 6 feet into the air if it move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the long or high jump, or half that distance if not, and each foot cleard on the jump costing a foot of movement. These are the distances it can jump regardless of its Speed.
RAW are pretty clear it's the strength and a very fast creature doesn't get to make a single jump go farther than a slow one or one that takes the dash action.
Simplified rules to help keep gameplay smooth but a DM is always able to rule otherwise and homebrew. But RAW are RAW
The Dev's really do not seem to like physics much. Too thinky. Momentum is simply not a thing. No matter how fast you dash, you can literally stop on a dime and sailing vessels actually require the action of the captain to will them to move, no matter how strong a following wind they have.
I mean I know being snarky is fun, but do you honestly think that a game that has codified all the laws of physics would be any where near as successful as 5e? It's supposed to be a game, not a physics simulator. 5e's jumping mechanics are very clearly designed to keep things moving rather than slow down combat with a skill check, speed calculation, d8 and d12 to determine wind direction and speed, etc. It's not too thinky it's too slow. I've got four hours to play a session of D&D and I don't want to waste it on that.
In a quick check I found that a wolf can jump on average 16ft horizontally. Strength in 5e would give it 12ft.
Is this really immersion-breakingly off? This is a really good example of "close enough" that the system delivers. Your proposed calculation requires subtracting 30 from speed and then dividing the result by two and then adding it to STR, which is about 5x as complex as just reading off STR. All for 17 feet instead of 12. I just don't think it's a worthwhile tradeoff. It also creates anomalies like a tiny quickling being able to jump 49 feet.
Also note that an Athletics check can be used to increase jump distance, and those Mike/horse jumps are absolutely crits on that check. Your STR score is the distance you can jump with 100% reliability, so a wolf can still jump 16 feet. It just has a chance to launch/land poorly.
The Dev's really do not seem to like physics much. Too thinky. Momentum is simply not a thing. No matter how fast you dash, you can literally stop on a dime and sailing vessels actually require the action of the captain to will them to move, no matter how strong a following wind they have.
I mean I know being snarky is fun, but do you honestly think that a game that has codified all the laws of physics would be any where near as successful as 5e? It's supposed to be a game, not a physics simulator. 5e's jumping mechanics are very clearly designed to keep things moving rather than slow down combat with a skill check, speed calculation, d8 and d12 to determine wind direction and speed, etc. It's not too thinky it's too slow. I've got four hours to play a session of D&D and I don't want to waste it on that.
There is a lot of room between essentially nothing and full realism. Whether on the ground or in the air, max velocity is max velocity. You aren't accelerating any more soon as you lift off the ground in a jump. Jumping would not increase your movement or anything and wind is just a straw man.
There is a jump formula already. It would not be that big a thing to take into account constant movement over the last two rounds, subject to max movement.
But exactly how much would actually be gained by adding that extra step?
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The Dev's really do not seem to like physics much. Too thinky. Momentum is simply not a thing. No matter how fast you dash, you can literally stop on a dime and sailing vessels actually require the action of the captain to will them to move, no matter how strong a following wind they have.
I mean I know being snarky is fun, but do you honestly think that a game that has codified all the laws of physics would be any where near as successful as 5e? It's supposed to be a game, not a physics simulator. 5e's jumping mechanics are very clearly designed to keep things moving rather than slow down combat with a skill check, speed calculation, d8 and d12 to determine wind direction and speed, etc. It's not too thinky it's too slow. I've got four hours to play a session of D&D and I don't want to waste it on that.
In a quick check I found that a wolf can jump on average 16ft horizontally. Strength in 5e would give it 12ft.
Is this really immersion-breakingly off? This is a really good example of "close enough" that the system delivers. Your proposed calculation requires subtracting 30 from speed and then dividing the result by two and then adding it to STR, which is about 5x as complex as just reading off STR. All for 17 feet instead of 12. I just don't think it's a worthwhile tradeoff. It also creates anomalies like a tiny quickling being able to jump 49 feet.
Also note that an Athletics check can be used to increase jump distance, and those Mike/horse jumps are absolutely crits on that check. Your STR score is the distance you can jump with 100% reliability, so a wolf can still jump 16 feet. It just has a chance to launch/land poorly.
Personally, as a DM I have no problem with a Quickling jumping 49ft. It's twice as fast as a horse, so why not?
This was all prompted by looking at the map of the Forge of Fury Gate level, and wondering if those Dire Wolves that are Ulfe's pets can clear the chasm in room 3? It's 30ft. With a RAW jump distance, there is no way they can clear it. Looking up what a ot of animals can actually do IRL I got to thinking that this mechanic might be improved in my game.
This point about it being slow. Really? I mean, this will happen once, maybe, a session. I think I can calculate an extra 5ft jumping distance per 10ft of speed (over 30ft) for just about any beast/creature pretty quickly, probably a lot faster than someone can roll an ability check.
It actually creates fun, for me, since why can't beasts/animals do some amazing things that aren't magical, but just based on their natural gifts?
Given that most of the time, such creatures won't ever need to make jump checks at all because it's something that PCs do far more regularly than NPCs, adding that level of granularity is just going to bog the game down for no benefit. And that's not even getting into creatures that due to their physiology are completely incapable of jumping, like elephants.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Let me put it this way: the number of times a dire wolf's jumping ability has been relevant in a game I've been in in the last 25 years has been equal to the number of times an elephant's jumping ability has. If you want to add more "realistic" jumping rules for critters, you don't get to pick and choose to only do it for a few individual ones that you do care about but get to ignore it for the ones you don't. That's not "realism" that's adding bonuses to critters just because you like them better.
If you really want creatures to have all kinds of extra modifiers for a few different effects, try looking up the 3.5 rules where they actually did that. It was one of the things that gave the edition such a problem with numeric bloat. It was a very time-consuming process that had the effect of simply discouraging many players and GMs from bothering with that stuff in the first place.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Given that most of the time, such creatures won't ever need to make jump checks at all because it's something that PCs do far more regularly than NPCs, adding that level of granularity is just going to bog the game down for no benefit. And that's not even getting into creatures that due to their physiology are completely incapable of jumping, like elephants.
Again, it's not a hard thing to calculate!! We all do math in 5s and 10s pretty quickly. ;)
As for Elephants ... shall we add Giant Octopi? Or Walrus?
There are obviously some places where you'd have to fudge RAW anyway, right? An Aurochs jumps farther than a Tiger. Hmmm. Ok. I think those are also very quick decisions.
I do think this is relevant quite a lot in certain games. I do happen to have druids around a bit, wizards that like to summon and polymorph, familiars and other instances where players are trying to come up with ideas about what their beasts can and can't do. Having a quick system (that is slightly more accurate) seems better to me than looking up the jump distance of a wolf every time I do need to figure that out. Jump seems fine for player characters as RAW, but is fraught with inconsistencies if taken literally for all beasts.
Given that most of the time, such creatures won't ever need to make jump checks at all because it's something that PCs do far more regularly than NPCs, adding that level of granularity is just going to bog the game down for no benefit. And that's not even getting into creatures that due to their physiology are completely incapable of jumping, like elephants.
It happens next to never so it will bog the game down sounds contradictory.
And 'but elephants can't jump' just seems like whataboutism, particularly in a fantasy setting, however my suggestion of taking mass into account would likely cover that regardless. Do you have a lot of players in your campaigns trying to enter elephants in show jumping contests? Have you ever seen anyone asking about elephants jumping in all your years playing?
Nothing in RAW prohibits elephants from jumping or horses from climbing trees. If you want to consider what creatures should not be able to do, perhaps that is discussion worthy, too, but likely in a separate thread?
It sounds kind of funny that in one breath we have the bolded above, “it happens next to never” and in the next breath we need to change the rules for jumping because it’s important.
I get that some find a little more reality in their game enjoyable, but there is a reason there is homebrew. Take it up with your DM, or if you are DM tell your players you are making a change. An alternative could be adding a jump feature to a creatures stat block giving them a bonus to their jump distance.
Using the strength calculator for jump distances with creatures that are much faster than humans seems inaccurate in a way that doesn't seem to help play, regardless of other balanced aspects of movement in game. After all, the Dire Wolf is nearly twice as fast as most characters, and being a four legged creature has very different jumping mechanics.
In a quick check I found that a wolf can jump on average 16ft horizontally. Strength in 5e would give it 12ft. So it does seem that speed should be involved. A wolf in 5e runs 40ft per round (or 80 dashing).
A Dire Wolf would have STR 17 for a 17ft jump. It runs at 50ft per round (100ft dash).
I know speed is not accurate to what a creature can do in reality within the 5e system, but jumping distance seems like it should be. (This is all coming from watching an instagram post of a Tiger doing a standing jump of about 12-14 feet without moving beforehand).
It seems like if 30ft is base speed, then something like adding STR plus 5ft/10 speed over 30 would get closer to accurate. That would get a wolf to 17 and a Dire Wolf to 27ft.
While that seems like a lot, a horse (with rider) has jumped 28ft! With this system that would get it to 31ft (presumably without rider). ;) (Mike Powell also got to 29ft 4")
Any thoughts?
Because Strength determines how far you can jump unless noted otherwise, Strenght and Speed both limit jumping and so a creature strong yet slow will be limited just as much as one fast but weak. A dire wolf has a speed of 50 feet and a Strength of 17 so when it makes a jump, it can cover up to 17 feet or leap up to 6 feet into the air if it move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the long or high jump, or half that distance if not, and each foot cleard on the jump costing a foot of movement. These are the distances it can jump regardless of its Speed.
RAW are pretty clear it's the strength and a very fast creature doesn't get to make a single jump go farther than a slow one or one that takes the dash action.
Simplified rules to help keep gameplay smooth but a DM is always able to rule otherwise and homebrew. But RAW are RAW
I mean I know being snarky is fun, but do you honestly think that a game that has codified all the laws of physics would be any where near as successful as 5e? It's supposed to be a game, not a physics simulator. 5e's jumping mechanics are very clearly designed to keep things moving rather than slow down combat with a skill check, speed calculation, d8 and d12 to determine wind direction and speed, etc. It's not too thinky it's too slow. I've got four hours to play a session of D&D and I don't want to waste it on that.
Is this really immersion-breakingly off? This is a really good example of "close enough" that the system delivers. Your proposed calculation requires subtracting 30 from speed and then dividing the result by two and then adding it to STR, which is about 5x as complex as just reading off STR. All for 17 feet instead of 12. I just don't think it's a worthwhile tradeoff. It also creates anomalies like a tiny quickling being able to jump 49 feet.
Also note that an Athletics check can be used to increase jump distance, and those Mike/horse jumps are absolutely crits on that check. Your STR score is the distance you can jump with 100% reliability, so a wolf can still jump 16 feet. It just has a chance to launch/land poorly.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
But exactly how much would actually be gained by adding that extra step?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think the Strength (Athletics) check to jump higher or longer than you normally can neatly address those limits.
Personally, as a DM I have no problem with a Quickling jumping 49ft. It's twice as fast as a horse, so why not?
This was all prompted by looking at the map of the Forge of Fury Gate level, and wondering if those Dire Wolves that are Ulfe's pets can clear the chasm in room 3? It's 30ft. With a RAW jump distance, there is no way they can clear it. Looking up what a ot of animals can actually do IRL I got to thinking that this mechanic might be improved in my game.
This point about it being slow. Really? I mean, this will happen once, maybe, a session. I think I can calculate an extra 5ft jumping distance per 10ft of speed (over 30ft) for just about any beast/creature pretty quickly, probably a lot faster than someone can roll an ability check.
It actually creates fun, for me, since why can't beasts/animals do some amazing things that aren't magical, but just based on their natural gifts?
Given that most of the time, such creatures won't ever need to make jump checks at all because it's something that PCs do far more regularly than NPCs, adding that level of granularity is just going to bog the game down for no benefit. And that's not even getting into creatures that due to their physiology are completely incapable of jumping, like elephants.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Let me put it this way: the number of times a dire wolf's jumping ability has been relevant in a game I've been in in the last 25 years has been equal to the number of times an elephant's jumping ability has. If you want to add more "realistic" jumping rules for critters, you don't get to pick and choose to only do it for a few individual ones that you do care about but get to ignore it for the ones you don't. That's not "realism" that's adding bonuses to critters just because you like them better.
If you really want creatures to have all kinds of extra modifiers for a few different effects, try looking up the 3.5 rules where they actually did that. It was one of the things that gave the edition such a problem with numeric bloat. It was a very time-consuming process that had the effect of simply discouraging many players and GMs from bothering with that stuff in the first place.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Again, it's not a hard thing to calculate!! We all do math in 5s and 10s pretty quickly. ;)
As for Elephants ... shall we add Giant Octopi? Or Walrus?
There are obviously some places where you'd have to fudge RAW anyway, right? An Aurochs jumps farther than a Tiger. Hmmm. Ok. I think those are also very quick decisions.
I do think this is relevant quite a lot in certain games. I do happen to have druids around a bit, wizards that like to summon and polymorph, familiars and other instances where players are trying to come up with ideas about what their beasts can and can't do. Having a quick system (that is slightly more accurate) seems better to me than looking up the jump distance of a wolf every time I do need to figure that out. Jump seems fine for player characters as RAW, but is fraught with inconsistencies if taken literally for all beasts.
It sounds kind of funny that in one breath we have the bolded above, “it happens next to never” and in the next breath we need to change the rules for jumping because it’s important.
I get that some find a little more reality in their game enjoyable, but there is a reason there is homebrew. Take it up with your DM, or if you are DM tell your players you are making a change.
An alternative could be adding a jump feature to a creatures stat block giving them a bonus to their jump distance.
You mean like how statblocks already list a creature's fly, swim, climb, and burrow speeds separately from walk? What a strange idea!
But that would require WOTC to care, so it'll never happen.
You could just make a standing long jump equal to your strength.
And a running long jump would be your strength plus 1/3 you present base movement, counting encumbrance.
Deal with creatures and monsters however you want.