As you can see, The rapier is not only the same weight as its slightly weaker counterpart (Short-sword) But its actually LIGHTER then the Scimitar. So why do those two count as "light" (Usable for dual wielding) While the Rapier isn't? (other then WotC not wanting us to. But why? Is it the chance to do 2 extra damage? If so, its a Dumb reason.)
I plan on houseruleing they also count as light, but l still wanted to make this to vent my frustration and see if there is a actual, good reason for not allowing it to be duel wielded without a feat
The simplest answer is because the games designers decided not to give it the light property based on its weapon die. It’s not actually based on weight.
light weapons are pretty much limited to a 1d6 or lower. Part of the balancing, at least when the game first came out, was that 1d8 or higher couldn’t be dual wielded because the of damage output at lower levels being too high.
It should probably be possible to dual wield with a dagger and a rapier, but wielding two rapiers at once isn't really practical because of length, not weight.
Rapiers are already the go-to melee weapon for dex based characters. Making them light without some other drawback would make an already very strong weapon even stronger, probably even too strong.
It should probably be possible to dual wield with a dagger and a rapier, but wielding two rapiers at once isn't really practical because of length, not weight.
It should probably be possible to dual wield with a dagger and a rapier, but wielding two rapiers at once isn't really practical because of length, not weight.
Yeah, that's just like using two longswords. Default two weapon fighting should be pairs of weapons that people actually used, though 5e doesn't do a great job of that either (historical two weapon fighting might use two paired short weapons, or one very short weapon such as a dagger paired with a longer weapon).
It should probably be possible to dual wield with a dagger and a rapier, but wielding two rapiers at once isn't really practical because of length, not weight.
It probably should considering its connections with the code duello (and thus its part in dual-wielding history). That said I'm not at all convinced the Rapier deserved the D8 die and I agree that for game balance it isn't a good idea to stack all benefits on a single weapon type.
Real reason 1: The designers don't know much about weapons (a scimitar is actually a type of longsword, it's actually bigger/thicker than previous longswords and is a broad category which includes things like cutlasses and sabres, and very much NOT light).
Real reason 2: balance mechanic.
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Real reason 1: The designers don't know much about weapons (a scimitar is actually a type of longsword, it's actually bigger/thicker than previous longswords and is a broad category which includes things like cutlasses and sabres, and very much NOT light).
I decided to look up some footage of actual practitioners dual wielding rapiers, and it is so awkward looking. It's definitely a question of length over any other concern. Two very long thrusting weapons are difficult to pair together. I don't know the science or technique of it, but it seems that slashing weapons seem to do better when dual wielded, so the scimitars actually make sense to me in that sense, even though they are quite literally heavier than rapiers.
I don't think realism really plays into D&D design decisions very much. But...
Rapiers are, historically, less balanced than cinema would leave you to believe. Most of a rapier's "light and deft" reputation comes from the smallsword (which was developed much later) and even-later dueling-specific weapons.
It is also worth questioning why the Scimitar got demoted to 1d6...
I'd imagine it being due to the 5e's designers having some kind of pathological fear/hang-up over the game having a d8 slashing weapon that has the Finesse trait /sarcasm
Possible that since they already made it a light weapon (to accommodate the various dual-wielding Ranger builds), they didn't want the class to get two attacks with d8 damage die right out the gate, especially since at 2nd level they can take a Fighting Style to let them add their Dexterity to the damage of both attacks.
There's more or less a point build system for weapons -- d8 martial one-handed martial weapons are limited to a single positive feature (Light, Finesse, Thrown, Versatile), so a scimitar can be either light or finesse, but not both. Reach counts as 2 positive features.
I've fought with dual rapiers with moderate success, but both were technically short enough to be parrying daggers and it was a sub-optimal set-up. Even with superior speed and dexterity, length matters.
A full length blade in an off-hand is not as wieldy for offense, and can get in the way for defense. Fighting with a rapier involves a lot of standing sideways to minimize strike zones. Putting the tip of both blades in a useful position requires standing square with the opponent, which basically doubles your exposure.
If there is any justification for scimitars being light, it would be that they are capable of slashing, which means that it's viable to get uncomfortably close to an opponent to use lots of shallow draw cuts. It's less technique dependent.
I always thought there should be some basis in reality when determining these mechanics. The Spanish created a whole style and school of fencing based on fighting with a Rapier and a dagger at the same time. This was prevalent for many decades in real life. The Rapier is much lighter than a Scimitar. The only reason a Scimitar was given the light trait is so people could emulate the popular Drow from fantasy fiction or the bad guy who was shot on the first Indiana Jones movie. Given the size and weight, the Scimitar should also get a d8 damage, but it would have made more sense to drop the Rapier to d6 and allow the light trait for balance than going with what they have.
I always thought there should be some basis in reality when determining these mechanics. The Spanish created a whole style and school of fencing based on fighting with a Rapier and a dagger at the same time. This was prevalent for many decades in real life. The Rapier is much lighter than a Scimitar. The only reason a Scimitar was given the light trait is so people could emulate the popular Drow from fantasy fiction or the bad guy who was shot on the first Indiana Jones movie. Given the size and weight, the Scimitar should also get a d8 damage, but it would have made more sense to drop the Rapier to d6 and allow the light trait for balance than going with what they have.
The problem with rapier being light is that under the current system, no one would use rapier+dagger, they would use rapier+rapier, which is incredibly awkward. Rather than making the rapier light, it would make more sense to change it so you can TWF as long as the off hand weapon is light. As for scimitars, I can't find historical evidence either way, but dual scimitars are very common in media, Drizzt is hardly the only user.
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As you can see, The rapier is not only the same weight as its slightly weaker counterpart (Short-sword) But its actually LIGHTER then the Scimitar. So why do those two count as "light" (Usable for dual wielding) While the Rapier isn't? (other then WotC not wanting us to. But why? Is it the chance to do 2 extra damage? If so, its a Dumb reason.)
I plan on houseruleing they also count as light, but l still wanted to make this to vent my frustration and see if there is a actual, good reason for not allowing it to be duel wielded without a feat
The simplest answer is because the games designers decided not to give it the light property based on its weapon die. It’s not actually based on weight.
light weapons are pretty much limited to a 1d6 or lower. Part of the balancing, at least when the game first came out, was that 1d8 or higher couldn’t be dual wielded because the of damage output at lower levels being too high.
It should probably be possible to dual wield with a dagger and a rapier, but wielding two rapiers at once isn't really practical because of length, not weight.
Rapiers are already the go-to melee weapon for dex based characters. Making them light without some other drawback would make an already very strong weapon even stronger, probably even too strong.
He doesn't seem to mind them (though, l guess it could be argued he got the feat -_0_-)
Yeah, that's just like using two longswords. Default two weapon fighting should be pairs of weapons that people actually used, though 5e doesn't do a great job of that either (historical two weapon fighting might use two paired short weapons, or one very short weapon such as a dagger paired with a longer weapon).
It probably should considering its connections with the code duello (and thus its part in dual-wielding history). That said I'm not at all convinced the Rapier deserved the D8 die and I agree that for game balance it isn't a good idea to stack all benefits on a single weapon type.
It was 1d8 in AD&D 2nd edition, 1d6 in 3rd edition, 1d8 in 4th edition and it's 1d6 now.
Scimitar lovers can look forward to 6e if the trend continues xD
Real reason 1: The designers don't know much about weapons (a scimitar is actually a type of longsword, it's actually bigger/thicker than previous longswords and is a broad category which includes things like cutlasses and sabres, and very much NOT light).
Real reason 2: balance mechanic.
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Real reason 3: Light weapons do 1d6, and Drizzt.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
I don't think its a matter that Rapier should be light, its more of Scimitar shouldn't be light.
But rule of cool an whatever else, so anything goes.
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I decided to look up some footage of actual practitioners dual wielding rapiers, and it is so awkward looking. It's definitely a question of length over any other concern. Two very long thrusting weapons are difficult to pair together. I don't know the science or technique of it, but it seems that slashing weapons seem to do better when dual wielded, so the scimitars actually make sense to me in that sense, even though they are quite literally heavier than rapiers.
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I don't think realism really plays into D&D design decisions very much. But...
Rapiers are, historically, less balanced than cinema would leave you to believe. Most of a rapier's "light and deft" reputation comes from the smallsword (which was developed much later) and even-later dueling-specific weapons.
Pretty sure 5e is confusing the scimitar with the cutlass.
It basically comes down to the fact that the light weapon property is based on game mechanics and not weight.
I'd imagine it being due to the 5e's designers having some kind of pathological fear/hang-up over the game having a d8 slashing weapon that has the Finesse trait /sarcasm
Possible that since they already made it a light weapon (to accommodate the various dual-wielding Ranger builds), they didn't want the class to get two attacks with d8 damage die right out the gate, especially since at 2nd level they can take a Fighting Style to let them add their Dexterity to the damage of both attacks.
There's more or less a point build system for weapons -- d8 martial one-handed martial weapons are limited to a single positive feature (Light, Finesse, Thrown, Versatile), so a scimitar can be either light or finesse, but not both. Reach counts as 2 positive features.
+1 for Scimitar being the oddity, not the Rapier.
I've fought with dual rapiers with moderate success, but both were technically short enough to be parrying daggers and it was a sub-optimal set-up. Even with superior speed and dexterity, length matters.
A full length blade in an off-hand is not as wieldy for offense, and can get in the way for defense. Fighting with a rapier involves a lot of standing sideways to minimize strike zones. Putting the tip of both blades in a useful position requires standing square with the opponent, which basically doubles your exposure.
If there is any justification for scimitars being light, it would be that they are capable of slashing, which means that it's viable to get uncomfortably close to an opponent to use lots of shallow draw cuts. It's less technique dependent.
I always thought there should be some basis in reality when determining these mechanics. The Spanish created a whole style and school of fencing based on fighting with a Rapier and a dagger at the same time. This was prevalent for many decades in real life. The Rapier is much lighter than a Scimitar. The only reason a Scimitar was given the light trait is so people could emulate the popular Drow from fantasy fiction or the bad guy who was shot on the first Indiana Jones movie. Given the size and weight, the Scimitar should also get a d8 damage, but it would have made more sense to drop the Rapier to d6 and allow the light trait for balance than going with what they have.
The problem with rapier being light is that under the current system, no one would use rapier+dagger, they would use rapier+rapier, which is incredibly awkward. Rather than making the rapier light, it would make more sense to change it so you can TWF as long as the off hand weapon is light. As for scimitars, I can't find historical evidence either way, but dual scimitars are very common in media, Drizzt is hardly the only user.