Thunderwave, per RAW, targets a cube adjacent to the caster, based on the fact that its area is a 15' cube, and the rules on spell areas of effect in the rules. When I first read the spell, though, not being fully familiar with the rules on areas of effect, I assumed it targeted a cube around the caster, partly based on how "elegant" it seemed, and partly based on the spell's description (a "wave" sweeping "out from you", a "cube originating from you", etc.).
Has any of D&D 5e's designers ever said how Thunderwave was intended to work?
I almost killed my animal companion in-game the first time I cast thunderwave because I misunderstood its area of effect the exact same way you did. Luckily she was juuuuust out of range, although to be fair my DM probably would have let me change what spell I was going to cast since my character would have known better, even if I didn't.
Spheres originate in the center, cubes originate on the sides. It is one of the big differences between thunderwave and thunderclap (Wave also does more damage and knockback, and is louder).
Does Thunderclap have the same 9 square coverage as Thunderwave, only centered on (and excluding) the caster or is Thunderclap's damage zone look more like a +? From the reading, I'm imagining the + but it almost sounds like DxJxC is saying it's the cube centered on the caster. I didn't find anything in my hardly exhaustive search a few days back to support either view.
Does Thunderclap have the same 9 square coverage as Thunderwave, only centered on (and excluding) the caster or is Thunderclap's damage zone look more like a +? From the reading, I'm imagining the + but it almost sounds like DxJxC is saying it's the cube centered on the caster. I didn't find anything in my hardly exhaustive search a few days back to support either view.
RAW (PHB) any space partly covered by an area of effect is effected (I prefer to require more than half covered by area of effect from XGtE). Some AOE rules simplify spheres as a cube, but I prefer more accuracy. At this small scale it would effect the 8 spaces around you (and 9 above you) so is essentially a cube.
Thunderclap hits all targets within range. The diagonals are still within 5' reach so they get hit as well, making the sphere effectively a cube if you play on a square grid.
Does Thunderclap have the same 9 square coverage as Thunderwave, only centered on (and excluding) the caster or is Thunderclap's damage zone look more like a +? From the reading, I'm imagining the + but it almost sounds like DxJxC is saying it's the cube centered on the caster. I didn't find anything in my hardly exhaustive search a few days back to support either view.
RAW (PHB) any space partly covered by an area of effect is effected (I prefer to require more than half covered by area of effect from XGtE). Some AOE rules simplify spheres as a cube, but I prefer more accuracy. At this small scale it would effect the 8 spaces around you (and 9 above you) so is essentially a cube.
I knew I'd seen the part from the DMG before and couldn't remember where it was from and clearly didn't get to that part in my search. The PHB part didn't stand out to me as I wasn't thinking sphere at the time but closer to a straight line.
I almost killed my animal companion in-game the first time I cast thunderwave because I misunderstood its area of effect the exact same way you did. Luckily she was juuuuust out of range, although to be fair my DM probably would have let me change what spell I was going to cast since my character would have known better, even if I didn't.
i.e. As a DM I would deal with it the same way your gaming console deals with a player badly placing one of his spells: no take backs, no rewinds, and none of this "Hey my wizard would no do this because *he* knows how to place his spells well he's a pro!". Nope that just would not cut it. It is the player's responsibility to learn and check his stuff first in advance, and ask questions if need be. Your PC is not a remote guided "perfect puppet", it is the player's *avatar* in the game world. Play with bad skills as a player, and your PC acts badly too. Player skill count just as much as PC stats.
Anyway that "my PC would know" excuse is complete crud. THOR is centuries old, a GOD, with super high level and super high skills. Yet he still makes stupid combat decisions all the time. Do not confuse theoretical skills (PC sheet) with personality and tactics (player).
As a player, seeing the DM constantly pausing the action because a spellcaster player is too lazy to do the effort of learning and pre-checking how his spells work, that is very grating as it slows down the pace of the game to a crawl and focuses way too precious gameplay time and gameplay focus on HIM, the spellcaster that has to be "held by hand" like a noob. If a player is a noob, he either chooses a simpler class, or accepts that he'll get a lot of such stupid fumbles. Otherwise without consequences there is no incentive to actually become a better skilled player.
At my table, a player not knowing his spells, the best that occurs is the spell simply fizzles. Sometimes it is worse and someone not intended gets hurt.
If a player opens the PHB occurs ? Only OUT of combat, or else it's going to take up his entire turn for at least one full round as his wizard is similarly scrambling to take out his spellbook to "check" how his spell actually works. Heck, a round is a whopping total of 6 seconds for *everybody*, friends and foes, all combined. If it takes you 1 minute to read your spell, yeah your PC is standing with book in hand, doing noything, for several rounds.
Combat is just not the time to check how magic works. Be a minimalistically empathic towards ther other players and stpi wasting precious combat time with rules details. This kind of thing is for out of game discussions with the DM. Not in battle. In middle of combat, WHABOOM oh nooo you just fumbled it. Yup you ended up toasting your own barbarian too. Very bad. Do it too much though and the PC barbarian (after ample warnings) could decide it would be better to just finish the PC wizard off because obvously that wizard is an erratic walking time bomb that, in battle, is more of an extra threat, than an actual ally.
And hey your next PC, either you learn your stuff befre sstarting to cast willy nilly, or you accept you just can't play a complex class and just play a Fighter Champion!".
I'm so sick and tired of a combats that would have otherwise had "fast and furious"' pacing slowing down to a chess-game-like super boring crawl because some player stopsd the game for rules discusssion about his spells. Next round, again for another spell. Gah. What selfishness.
I like Angry, but yeesh he goes a bit overboard on that one. If my player's wizard spent 3 hours learning a new spell, he knows how it works better than the player who spent 3 seconds checking a box. If the player gets it wrong the first time they cast it, I'll throw them a bone. I think "lazy" is a bit strong of a word for a cleric or druid who didn't memorize the details of every single spell available to their class.
After that? Sure, let them pay. But considering Angry's argument here is that retconning character actions due to player ignorance makes the game less fun, I'd put forth that a hostile DM berating his players for not knowing every last detail of every last spell can also make the game less fun.
I like Angry, but yeesh he goes a bit overboard on that one. If my player's wizard spent 3 hours learning a new spell, he knows how it works better than the player who spent 3 seconds checking a box. If the player gets it wrong the first time they cast it, I'll throw them a bone. I think "lazy" is a bit strong of a word for a cleric or druid who didn't memorize the details of every single spell available to their class.
After that? Sure, let them pay. But considering Angry's argument here is that retconning character actions due to player ignorance makes the game less fun, I'd put forth that a hostile DM berating his players for not knowing every last detail of every last spell can also make the game less fun.
A player should spend a little more time reading his spells before using them.
After all, if the DM is spending 4 hours in preparation for every 4 hour gaming session, the player could at least spend 10 minutes reading his spells properly!
Sooooooo, Myself, and all other members of my party have ALWAYS played that thunderwave was centered on yourself. And after the first few posts on this thread, I was like WHAAAAT?!?!?! and shared a screenshot of the Crawford post on my groupchat and it launched a huuuuuuuuuuuge conversation of "Why in the world, did we assume centered on self?!" there's literally 3 separate instances saying cubes are originating on a face but for some reason ALL of us were like "hur hur thunderwave goes woosh" for no reason lol
I just wanted you all to know that this single thread made my party groupchat EXPLODE with memes lol
I like Angry, but yeesh he goes a bit overboard on that one. If my player's wizard spent 3 hours learning a new spell, he knows how it works better than the player who spent 3 seconds checking a box. If the player gets it wrong the first time they cast it, I'll throw them a bone. I think "lazy" is a bit strong of a word for a cleric or druid who didn't memorize the details of every single spell available to their class.
After that? Sure, let them pay. But considering Angry's argument here is that retconning character actions due to player ignorance makes the game less fun, I'd put forth that a hostile DM berating his players for not knowing every last detail of every last spell can also make the game less fun.
A player should spend a little more time reading his spells before using them.
After all, if the DM is spending 4 hours in preparation for every 4 hour gaming session, the player could at least spend 10 minutes reading his spells properly!
Bingo. Bad players steal precious time from all the players. A bad player = a selfish player. Most games I know of play on a weekly (or more than a week gap) basis. If a player can't research a new spell in a week, too bad for the player if they don't know it.
Sooooooo, Myself, and all other members of my party have ALWAYS played that thunderwave was centered on yourself. And after the first few posts on this thread, I was like WHAAAAT?!?!?! and shared a screenshot of the Crawford post on my groupchat and it launched a huuuuuuuuuuuge conversation of "Why in the world, did we assume centered on self?!" there's literally 3 separate instances saying cubes are originating on a face but for some reason ALL of us were like "hur hur thunderwave goes woosh" for no reason lol
I just wanted you all to know that this single thread made my party groupchat EXPLODE with memes lol
I'm glad something good came from this thread being necro'd.
Thunderwave, per RAW, targets a cube adjacent to the caster, based on the fact that its area is a 15' cube, and the rules on spell areas of effect in the rules. When I first read the spell, though, not being fully familiar with the rules on areas of effect, I assumed it targeted a cube around the caster, partly based on how "elegant" it seemed, and partly based on the spell's description (a "wave" sweeping "out from you", a "cube originating from you", etc.).
Has any of D&D 5e's designers ever said how Thunderwave was intended to work?
"The point of origin of a cubic area of effect, including thunderwave's, is on a face of the cube (PH, pg 204), not inside it."
"The red square in the image represents the 15 ft. cube of thunderwave. See p. 204 in the PH for how cubes work. #DnD https://t.co/6RApTFuNVI"
The first link is broken, but I get the gist. Thanks!
I almost killed my animal companion in-game the first time I cast thunderwave because I misunderstood its area of effect the exact same way you did. Luckily she was juuuuust out of range, although to be fair my DM probably would have let me change what spell I was going to cast since my character would have known better, even if I didn't.
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Spheres originate in the center, cubes originate on the sides. It is one of the big differences between thunderwave and thunderclap (Wave also does more damage and knockback, and is louder).
Does Thunderclap have the same 9 square coverage as Thunderwave, only centered on (and excluding) the caster or is Thunderclap's damage zone look more like a +? From the reading, I'm imagining the + but it almost sounds like DxJxC is saying it's the cube centered on the caster. I didn't find anything in my hardly exhaustive search a few days back to support either view.
RAW (PHB) any space partly covered by an area of effect is effected (I prefer to require more than half covered by area of effect from XGtE). Some AOE rules simplify spheres as a cube, but I prefer more accuracy. At this small scale it would effect the 8 spaces around you (and 9 above you) so is essentially a cube.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#AreasofEffect
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/xgte/dungeon-masters-tools#AreasofEffectonaGrid
Thunderclap hits all targets within range. The diagonals are still within 5' reach so they get hit as well, making the sphere effectively a cube if you play on a square grid.
I knew I'd seen the part from the DMG before and couldn't remember where it was from and clearly didn't get to that part in my search. The PHB part didn't stand out to me as I wasn't thinking sphere at the time but closer to a straight line.
Personally I follow this:
https://theangrygm.com/through-a-glass-darkly-ic-ooc-and-the-myth-of-playercharacter-seperation/
i.e. As a DM I would deal with it the same way your gaming console deals with a player badly placing one of his spells: no take backs, no rewinds, and none of this "Hey my wizard would no do this because *he* knows how to place his spells well he's a pro!". Nope that just would not cut it. It is the player's responsibility to learn and check his stuff first in advance, and ask questions if need be. Your PC is not a remote guided "perfect puppet", it is the player's *avatar* in the game world. Play with bad skills as a player, and your PC acts badly too. Player skill count just as much as PC stats.
Anyway that "my PC would know" excuse is complete crud. THOR is centuries old, a GOD, with super high level and super high skills. Yet he still makes stupid combat decisions all the time. Do not confuse theoretical skills (PC sheet) with personality and tactics (player).
As a player, seeing the DM constantly pausing the action because a spellcaster player is too lazy to do the effort of learning and pre-checking how his spells work, that is very grating as it slows down the pace of the game to a crawl and focuses way too precious gameplay time and gameplay focus on HIM, the spellcaster that has to be "held by hand" like a noob. If a player is a noob, he either chooses a simpler class, or accepts that he'll get a lot of such stupid fumbles. Otherwise without consequences there is no incentive to actually become a better skilled player.
At my table, a player not knowing his spells, the best that occurs is the spell simply fizzles. Sometimes it is worse and someone not intended gets hurt.
If a player opens the PHB occurs ? Only OUT of combat, or else it's going to take up his entire turn for at least one full round as his wizard is similarly scrambling to take out his spellbook to "check" how his spell actually works. Heck, a round is a whopping total of 6 seconds for *everybody*, friends and foes, all combined. If it takes you 1 minute to read your spell, yeah your PC is standing with book in hand, doing noything, for several rounds.
Combat is just not the time to check how magic works. Be a minimalistically empathic towards ther other players and stpi wasting precious combat time with rules details. This kind of thing is for out of game discussions with the DM. Not in battle. In middle of combat, WHABOOM oh nooo you just fumbled it. Yup you ended up toasting your own barbarian too. Very bad. Do it too much though and the PC barbarian (after ample warnings) could decide it would be better to just finish the PC wizard off because obvously that wizard is an erratic walking time bomb that, in battle, is more of an extra threat, than an actual ally.
And hey your next PC, either you learn your stuff befre sstarting to cast willy nilly, or you accept you just can't play a complex class and just play a Fighter Champion!".
I'm so sick and tired of a combats that would have otherwise had "fast and furious"' pacing slowing down to a chess-game-like super boring crawl because some player stopsd the game for rules discusssion about his spells. Next round, again for another spell. Gah. What selfishness.
I like Angry, but yeesh he goes a bit overboard on that one. If my player's wizard spent 3 hours learning a new spell, he knows how it works better than the player who spent 3 seconds checking a box. If the player gets it wrong the first time they cast it, I'll throw them a bone. I think "lazy" is a bit strong of a word for a cleric or druid who didn't memorize the details of every single spell available to their class.
After that? Sure, let them pay. But considering Angry's argument here is that retconning character actions due to player ignorance makes the game less fun, I'd put forth that a hostile DM berating his players for not knowing every last detail of every last spell can also make the game less fun.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
A player should spend a little more time reading his spells before using them.
After all, if the DM is spending 4 hours in preparation for every 4 hour gaming session, the player could at least spend 10 minutes reading his spells properly!
Sooooooo, Myself, and all other members of my party have ALWAYS played that thunderwave was centered on yourself. And after the first few posts on this thread, I was like WHAAAAT?!?!?! and shared a screenshot of the Crawford post on my groupchat and it launched a huuuuuuuuuuuge conversation of "Why in the world, did we assume centered on self?!" there's literally 3 separate instances saying cubes are originating on a face but for some reason ALL of us were like "hur hur thunderwave goes woosh" for no reason lol
I just wanted you all to know that this single thread made my party groupchat EXPLODE with memes lol
Bingo. Bad players steal precious time from all the players. A bad player = a selfish player. Most games I know of play on a weekly (or more than a week gap) basis. If a player can't research a new spell in a week, too bad for the player if they don't know it.
I'm glad something good came from this thread being necro'd.
After hearing that, I would never play at your table.
That AngryDM poster specifically referenced new players. If you treat new players that way, you have no business being a DM.