There are plenty of cases where a spell does damage to more than one target at the same time but you roll damage multiple times -- for example, when you cast ice storm you don't roll once for both the cold and the crushing damage. That's because those are multiple effects even though it's a single spell. Likewise, each missile in magic missile is a distinct effect.
If they aren't separate effects, applying two missiles to one target and one missile to a second target would do the same damage to both targets. That's clearly not RAI.
There are plenty of cases where a spell does damage to more than one target at the same time but you roll damage multiple times -- for example, when you cast ice storm you don't roll once for both the cold and the crushing damage. That's because those are multiple effects even though it's a single spell. Likewise, each missile in magic missile is a distinct effect.
If they aren't separate effects, applying two missiles to one target and one missile to a second target would do the same damage to both targets. That's clearly not RAI.
Hitting one target with two missiles, and one target with one missile, and doing 5 damage to each of them (not 5 per missile -- 5) is clearly not RAI, nor is it what AL does.
Hitting one target with two missiles, and one target with one missile, and doing 5 damage to each of them (not 5 per missile -- 5) is clearly not RAI, nor is it what AL does.
No. One of us misunderstood the other. If you cast Magic Missile and roll a 3 on the d4 then each dart does 4 damage (1d4+1). So if you hit one creature with 2 darts and a second creature with 1 dart then the 1st creature takes 8 damage and the 2nd creature takes 4 damage.
Again, RAW, you roll 1d4+1 for the casting, and every dart does the exact same amount of damage regardless of the number of darts, or the number of creatures targeted.
Most people do not play Magic Missile RAW. The roll each dart independently. But that is just a common house rule/misconception. Nobody complains because nobody really gives a $|-|¡+ and statistically it all works out the same in the long run. But it is technically against RAW to do so.
Again, RAW, you roll 1d4+1 for the casting, and every dart does the exact same amount of damage regardless of the number of darts, or the number of creatures targeted.
No, RAW is that each target takes the same damage. You roll once and apply the same damage to all targets.
There are plenty of cases where a spell does damage to more than one target at the same time but you roll damage multiple times -- for example, when you cast ice storm you don't roll once for both the cold and the crushing damage. That's because those are multiple effects even though it's a single spell. Likewise, each missile in magic missile is a distinct effect.
If they aren't separate effects, applying two missiles to one target and one missile to a second target would do the same damage to both targets. That's clearly not RAI.
Not according to Jeremy Crawford and the AL.
To fair, anything Jeremy Crawford says is dismissed as not being official on these forums.
Again, RAW, you roll 1d4+1 for the casting, and every dart does the exact same amount of damage regardless of the number of darts, or the number of creatures targeted.
No, RAW is that each target takes the same damage. You roll once and apply the same damage to all targets.
No, you are just plain old flat wrong. There is no other way to put it.
Again, RAW, you roll 1d4+1 for the casting, and every dart does the exact same amount of damage regardless of the number of darts, or the number of creatures targeted.
No, RAW is that each target takes the same damage. You roll once and apply the same damage to all targets.
No, you are just plain old flat wrong. There is no other way to put it.
No, RAW is badly written and must be interpreted to make sense. There are two choices:
Magic missile is a single effect that damages multiple targets. It does the same damage to all targets.
Magic missile is multiple effects, each of which damage a single target. Each effect is rolled separately.
The idea that it is multiple damage instances but they are only rolled once is a hybrid that is not supported by RAW. RAW is 'roll once and apply to all targets'.
Again, RAW, you roll 1d4+1 for the casting, and every dart does the exact same amount of damage regardless of the number of darts, or the number of creatures targeted.
No, RAW is that each target takes the same damage. You roll once and apply the same damage to all targets.
No, you are just plain old flat wrong. There is no other way to put it.
No, RAW is badly written and must be interpreted to make sense. There are two choices:
Magic missile is a single effect that damages multiple targets. It does the same damage to all targets.
Magic missile is multiple effects, each of which damage a single target. Each effect is rolled separately.
The idea that it is multiple damage instances but they are only rolled once is a hybrid that is not supported by RAW. RAW is 'roll once and apply to all targets'.
But specific beats general and Magic Missile specifies that the same creature can be targeted more than once.
Okay, so you’re right. Roll once and apply to all targets, but one creature can be multiple targets. If you cast Magic Missile as a 4th-level spell you get 6 “targets” but on creature can be one target, all six targets, or anywhere in between.
Look, I didn’t write the rule. I’m just trying to explain it.
From what I've been able to pick up, earlier editions of D&D were much more clear that MM only rolls once. I think that it might be a case where the designers were so used to that being a well-known detail that they didn't give the spell description more info to clarify without a doubt that damage is only rolled once.
From what I've been able to pick up, earlier editions of D&D were much more clear that MM only rolls once.
That would be a firm 'no', at least for the versions I have easy access to at the moment. 3.5e srd:
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
Nope, nothing there. I don't have AD&D 1e sitting around, sorry, but I'll check OSRIC:
When this spell is cast, missiles of magical energy dart forth from the caster’s fingertips, striking unerringly at his or her intended target(s), even if the target(s) are in melee or are partially concealed. The missiles inflict 1d4+1 points of damage each. For every two caster levels beyond first, the caster gains an additional missile; thus, a first-level magic user can cast one missile, a third-level caster may cast 2, a fifth-level caster may cast 3, and so on.
Okay, so you’re right. Roll once and apply to all targets, but one creature can be multiple targets. If you cast Magic Missile as a 4th-level spell you get 6 “targets” but on creature can be one target, all six targets, or anywhere in between.
Look, I didn’t write the rule. I’m just trying to explain it.
If I cast Hold Person at third level, can I pick the same person twice and force them to make two saves?
Okay, so you’re right. Roll once and apply to all targets, but one creature can be multiple targets. If you cast Magic Missile as a 4th-level spell you get 6 “targets” but on creature can be one target, all six targets, or anywhere in between.
Look, I didn’t write the rule. I’m just trying to explain it.
If I cast Hold Person at third level, can I pick the same person twice and force them to make two saves?
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot level above 1st.
So, because it could target multiple creatures, and because it does all damage “simultaneously” it therefore must follow the general rules for spells that do simultaneous damage to multiple creatures like fireball. But “specific beats general” and Magic Missile specifies that it can target the same creature multiple times. Therefore, RAW, whenever you cast Magic Missile you roll 1d4+1 damage, and every dart does the exact same amount of damage regardless of the number of darts or the number of targets. It’s a technicality that has existed since at least AD&D 2e when I first encountered this peculiar caveat. I thought they had changed it for 5e too, but I was incorrect. 🤷♂️ It does happen occasionally. This however is not one of those occasions.
But, as I have stated repeatedly, most people agree with you that RAW in this case is stupid, so they roll individually for each dart. I do not, but I understand why people do.
I always have, and always will, roll 1d4 + 1 force damage for each dart.
Most people do. Just like the “somatic component/arcane focus” fiasco in that other forum, I am not saying that RAW is “right” in this case, just what it is.
So, because it could target multiple creatures, and because it does all damage “simultaneously” it therefore must follow the general rules for spells that do simultaneous damage to multiple creatures like fireball.
I would note that the word 'simultaneous' is new in 5e, so it's probably just an error when converting the spell to 5e.
So, because it could target multiple creatures, and because it does all damage “simultaneously” it therefore must follow the general rules for spells that do simultaneous damage to multiple creatures like fireball.
I would note that the word 'simultaneous' is new in 5e, so it's probably just an error when converting the spell to 5e.
🤷♂️ We played it that way in AD&D 2e back in the ‘90s. We were all kids. The kid who DMed played in his dad’s campaign. His dad explained it to him, he explained it to me.... Look, maybe his dad was wrong and we played it wrong back then. I have no idea nor do I care because that was 30 years ago. It’s a moot point.
Either way, that is RAW now in 5e. But as I have said from the beginning of this conversation (actually since the conversation that was the predecessor of this conversation), I will never be the one to tell you you have to roll it that way unless you are a player in a campaign I DM. The DMs of the other campaigns I am in as a player (one of which is a player in the campaign I DM) don’t rule it that way. So when I am in their living rooms I roll for each dart. When they’re in my living room they roll once for the casting. You want to know a secretnotsecret? Statistically it all works out roughly the same in the end.
So, because it could target multiple creatures, and because it does all damage “simultaneously” it therefore must follow the general rules for spells that do simultaneous damage to multiple creatures like fireball.
I would note that the word 'simultaneous' is new in 5e, so it's probably just an error when converting the spell to 5e.
🤷♂️ We played it that way in AD&D 2e back in the ‘90s. We were all kids. The kid who DMed played in his dad’s campaign. His dad explained it to him, he explained it to me.... Look, maybe his dad was wrong and we played it wrong back then. I have no idea nor do I care because that was 30 years ago. It’s a moot point.
I suspect it was because physical d4s (aka caltrops) are a horrible annoyance to roll, there's nothing actually in the rules to support rolling once for all missile. The closest I have to evidence of typical usage back in the day is video games that implemented D&D (e.g. Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights) which rolled once for area spells but rolled every die for magic missile.
To fair, anything Jeremy Crawford says is dismissed as not being official on these forums.
Speak for yourself, friend. I don't dismiss the guidance his input provides. I find his rulings to be a window into the design process and they help me resolve ambiguity in the written rules.
To fair, anything Jeremy Crawford says is dismissed as not being official on these forums.
Speak for yourself, friend. I don't dismiss the guidance his input provides. I find his rulings to be a window into the design process and they help me resolve ambiguity in the written rules.
I normally expect the developers of the game mechanics to understand RAI and RAW better than I do, but I have disagreed with some of his rulings on specific occasions.
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There are plenty of cases where a spell does damage to more than one target at the same time but you roll damage multiple times -- for example, when you cast ice storm you don't roll once for both the cold and the crushing damage. That's because those are multiple effects even though it's a single spell. Likewise, each missile in magic missile is a distinct effect.
If they aren't separate effects, applying two missiles to one target and one missile to a second target would do the same damage to both targets. That's clearly not RAI.
Not according to Jeremy Crawford and the AL.
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Hitting one target with two missiles, and one target with one missile, and doing 5 damage to each of them (not 5 per missile -- 5) is clearly not RAI, nor is it what AL does.
No. One of us misunderstood the other. If you cast Magic Missile and roll a 3 on the d4 then each dart does 4 damage (1d4+1). So if you hit one creature with 2 darts and a second creature with 1 dart then the 1st creature takes 8 damage and the 2nd creature takes 4 damage.
Again, RAW, you roll 1d4+1 for the casting, and every dart does the exact same amount of damage regardless of the number of darts, or the number of creatures targeted.
Most people do not play Magic Missile RAW. The roll each dart independently. But that is just a common house rule/misconception. Nobody complains because nobody really gives a $|-|¡+ and statistically it all works out the same in the long run. But it is technically against RAW to do so.
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No, RAW is that each target takes the same damage. You roll once and apply the same damage to all targets.
To fair, anything Jeremy Crawford says is dismissed as not being official on these forums.
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No, you are just plain old flat wrong. There is no other way to put it.
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No, RAW is badly written and must be interpreted to make sense. There are two choices:
The idea that it is multiple damage instances but they are only rolled once is a hybrid that is not supported by RAW. RAW is 'roll once and apply to all targets'.
But specific beats general and Magic Missile specifies that the same creature can be targeted more than once.
Okay, so you’re right. Roll once and apply to all targets, but one creature can be multiple targets. If you cast Magic Missile as a 4th-level spell you get 6 “targets” but on creature can be one target, all six targets, or anywhere in between.
Look, I didn’t write the rule. I’m just trying to explain it.
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From what I've been able to pick up, earlier editions of D&D were much more clear that MM only rolls once. I think that it might be a case where the designers were so used to that being a well-known detail that they didn't give the spell description more info to clarify without a doubt that damage is only rolled once.
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That would be a firm 'no', at least for the versions I have easy access to at the moment. 3.5e srd:
Nope, nothing there. I don't have AD&D 1e sitting around, sorry, but I'll check OSRIC:
Nope, nothing there.
If I cast Hold Person at third level, can I pick the same person twice and force them to make two saves?
No, because Hold Person does not specify that you can, but Magic Missile does:
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So, because it could target multiple creatures, and because it does all damage “simultaneously” it therefore must follow the general rules for spells that do simultaneous damage to multiple creatures like fireball. But “specific beats general” and Magic Missile specifies that it can target the same creature multiple times. Therefore, RAW, whenever you cast Magic Missile you roll 1d4+1 damage, and every dart does the exact same amount of damage regardless of the number of darts or the number of targets. It’s a technicality that has existed since at least AD&D 2e when I first encountered this peculiar caveat. I thought they had changed it for 5e too, but I was incorrect. 🤷♂️ It does happen occasionally. This however is not one of those occasions.
But, as I have stated repeatedly, most people agree with you that RAW in this case is stupid, so they roll individually for each dart. I do not, but I understand why people do.
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I always have, and always will, roll 1d4 + 1 force damage for each dart.
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Most people do. Just like the “somatic component/arcane focus” fiasco in that other forum, I am not saying that RAW is “right” in this case, just what it is.
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I would note that the word 'simultaneous' is new in 5e, so it's probably just an error when converting the spell to 5e.
🤷♂️ We played it that way in AD&D 2e back in the ‘90s. We were all kids. The kid who DMed played in his dad’s campaign. His dad explained it to him, he explained it to me.... Look, maybe his dad was wrong and we played it wrong back then. I have no idea nor do I care because that was 30 years ago. It’s a moot point.
Either way, that is RAW now in 5e. But as I have said from the beginning of this conversation (actually since the conversation that was the predecessor of this conversation), I will never be the one to tell you you have to roll it that way unless you are a player in a campaign I DM. The DMs of the other campaigns I am in as a player (one of which is a player in the campaign I DM) don’t rule it that way. So when I am in their living rooms I roll for each dart. When they’re in my living room they roll once for the casting. You want to know a secretnotsecret? Statistically it all works out roughly the same in the end.
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I suspect it was because physical d4s (aka caltrops) are a horrible annoyance to roll, there's nothing actually in the rules to support rolling once for all missile. The closest I have to evidence of typical usage back in the day is video games that implemented D&D (e.g. Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights) which rolled once for area spells but rolled every die for magic missile.
Speak for yourself, friend. I don't dismiss the guidance his input provides. I find his rulings to be a window into the design process and they help me resolve ambiguity in the written rules.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I normally expect the developers of the game mechanics to understand RAI and RAW better than I do, but I have disagreed with some of his rulings on specific occasions.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms