To fair, anything Jeremy Crawford says is dismissed as not being official on these forums.
Speak for yourself, friend. I don't dismiss the guidance his input provides. I find his rulings to be a window into the design process and they help me resolve ambiguity in the written rules.
Texas, I agree with you too. But, on these forums it is true that it is probably the first thing that someone will point to when they disagree with one of his rulings.
Most of the time, I find what he says is fairly accurate when considering some level of context. Too often, people point to his tweets without context or ask a question that doesn't have the detail required for a sufficient answer.
Magic missile is a single effect that damages multiple targets. It does the same damage to all targets.
Magic missile is multiple effects, each of which damage a single target. Each effect is rolled separately.
There are certainly not 2 choices. You've missed out:
3. Magic missile is a single effect that affects multiple targets, with the possibility of affecting the same target more than once. Each effect does the same damage.
4. Magic missile is a single effect that affects multiple targets, with the possibility of affecting the same target more than once. Each effect does different damage.
To fair, anything Jeremy Crawford says is dismissed as not being official on these forums.
Speak for yourself, friend. I don't dismiss the guidance his input provides. I find his rulings to be a window into the design process and they help me resolve ambiguity in the written rules.
Texas, I agree with you too. But, on these forums it is true that it is probably the first thing that someone will point to when they disagree with one of his rulings.
Most of the time, I find what he says is fairly accurate when considering some level of context. Too often, people point to his tweets without context or ask a question that doesn't have the detail required for a sufficient answer.
True, but in this case it’s a little hard to argue with ‘this is RAW, but it really doesn’t matter so do it whichever way makes you happy’ (paraphrased of course)
Magic missile is a single effect that damages multiple targets. It does the same damage to all targets.
Magic missile is multiple effects, each of which damage a single target. Each effect is rolled separately.
There are certainly not 2 choices. You've missed out:
3. Magic missile is a single effect that affects multiple targets, with the possibility of affecting the same target more than once. Each effect does the same damage.
4. Magic missile is a single effect that affects multiple targets, with the possibility of affecting the same target more than once. Each effect does different damage.
To fair, anything Jeremy Crawford says is dismissed as not being official on these forums.
Speak for yourself, friend. I don't dismiss the guidance his input provides. I find his rulings to be a window into the design process and they help me resolve ambiguity in the written rules.
I agree with you, however it does not change the fact that most of the time he is dismissed out of hand on these forums.
Magic missile is a single effect that damages multiple targets. It does the same damage to all targets.
Magic missile is multiple effects, each of which damage a single target. Each effect is rolled separately.
There are certainly not 2 choices. You've missed out:
3. Magic missile is a single effect that affects multiple targets, with the possibility of affecting the same target more than once. Each effect does the same damage.
Not supported by RAW. RAW is 'If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them.' 'Them' lexically refers to 'target'; thus, you roll damage once and apply the same damage to all targets. Also, that rule does not apply when all missiles are hitting the same target, because it is not dealing damage to more than one target. Strictly per RAW:
If you magic missile and hit 3 targets, each target takes the same damage.
If you magic missile and hit the same target 3 times, that rule does not apply, which means you roll once per instance of damage, like any other spell that applies damage multiple times.
If you magic missile and hit two targets, one with two missiles, each target takes the same damage. Which damage that is is not specified.
Magic missile is a single effect that damages multiple targets. It does the same damage to all targets.
Magic missile is multiple effects, each of which damage a single target. Each effect is rolled separately.
There are certainly not 2 choices. You've missed out:
3. Magic missile is a single effect that affects multiple targets, with the possibility of affecting the same target more than once. Each effect does the same damage.
Not supported by RAW. RAW is 'If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them.' 'Them' lexically refers to 'target'; thus, you roll damage once and apply the same damage to all targets. Also, that rule does not apply when all missiles are hitting the same target, because it is not dealing damage to more than one target. Strictly per RAW:
If you magic missile and hit 3 targets, each target takes the same damage.
If you magic missile and hit the same target 3 times, that rule does not apply, which means you roll once per instance of damage, like any other spell that applies damage multiple times.
If you magic missile and hit two targets, one with two missiles, each target takes the same damage. Which damage that is is not specified.
No.
RAW, you roll 1d4+1, and every dart does the same damage no matter how many targets, or how many darts.
RAF, play it however you like.
It’s the same as the “could target multiple creatures” technicality that means you cannot Twin Spell Eldritch Blast, even if you don’t target different creatures.
RAW, you roll 1d4+1, and every dart does the same damage no matter how many targets, or how many darts.
RAF, play it however you like.
It’s the same as the “could target multiple creatures” technicality that means you cannot Twin Spell Eldritch Blast, even if you don’t target different creatures.
That's rules as interpreted, not rules as written. Twin spell has has specific verbiage "To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level.", and if it did not have that verbiage, you could twin spell eldritch blast. Damage to multiple targets has no such verbiage.
I really don't care if you roll the d4 once for all missiles or for each missile separately. In my eyes RAW is ambiguous and RAI is one roll for all missiles, but whatever. I just think it's bullshit something like Hexblade's Curse adds the extra damage to each missile creating a mininuke of a spell that cannot miss. It opens the door for min-max characters that completely unbalance a combat encounter once every rest.
I really don't care if you roll the d4 once for all missiles or for each missile separately. In my eyes RAW is ambiguous and RAI is one roll for all missiles, but whatever. I just think it's bullshit something like Hexblade's Curse adds the extra damage to each missile creating a mininuke of a spell that cannot miss. It opens the door for min-max characters that completely unbalance a combat encounter once every rest.
Yeah, but that’s more on Hexblade than Magic Missile. Simple solution, make the encounters harder. 😈
I really don't care if you roll the d4 once for all missiles or for each missile separately. In my eyes RAW is ambiguous and RAI is one roll for all missiles, but whatever. I just think it's bullshit something like Hexblade's Curse adds the extra damage to each missile creating a mininuke of a spell that cannot miss. It opens the door for min-max characters that completely unbalance a combat encounter once every rest.
I'd probably adjust Hexblade's curse instead of adjusting magic missile. Hexblade is generally problematic in combination with multiclassing.
I really don't care if you roll the d4 once for all missiles or for each missile separately. In my eyes RAW is ambiguous and RAI is one roll for all missiles, but whatever. I just think it's bullshit something like Hexblade's Curse adds the extra damage to each missile creating a mininuke of a spell that cannot miss. It opens the door for min-max characters that completely unbalance a combat encounter once every rest.
Yeah, but that’s more on Hexblade than Magic Missile. Simple solution, make the encounters harder. 😈
That means that the rest of the party has to be of similar firepower, or combats become the hexblade fighting while the rest of the party plays support or acts as cheerleaders. And if the hexblade goes down early, it is more likely a TPK
That’s why I balance around a higher power level. I can give PCs boons and Magic Items to raise their power level, harder to nerf a class feature without players getting salty. An average “combat” day for a party in a campaign I DM has 4 Deadly+ encounters. Like running a Gauntlet in Destiny 2.
Or Scorching Ray, which has the benefit of not generally blowing up in your face. However, the combination cannot be done in less than two rounds (bonus action hex on round 1, along with a cantrip; bonus action hexblade's curse on round 2, along with your attack spell). The fact that hexblade's curse doesn't count as a spell and thus allows a leveled spell in the same round is another issue with hexblade.
True. I guess you could say that you get to re-roll damage for each attack roll. Is that formalized in the rule?
I guess I remember reading that you roll damage once each time the spell does damage. I don't remember where that was off the top of my head. But if there are 3 separate darts, that is still dealing damage 3 times, right?
What I'm really saying is that to me the separate attack rolls don't really separate the beams of EB any more than the separate darts of MM. The attack rolls, after all, are purely mechanical. It isn't as though they "take time" in game.
Eldritch blast acts like extra attack. You definitely roll multiple times for multiple attacks. Those are definitely discrete events. I just don't know how you know that the darts aren't.
Magic Missles hit simultaneously and without fail - you have to aim those eldo blastos, tho.
When you cast magic missile, the spell is created and the damage is dictated before "The darts all strike simultaneously". When you cast eldritch blast, you're aiming volatile crackling energy and not only do the blasts occur separately (as they have set a precedent for disclosing if they would hit simultaneously).
Roll for each if it's fun, but 1d4 works with the mechanics AND flavor better than separate rolls. The only benefit of house-ruling separate damage rolls is to feel the power of throwing caltrops, and that's totally ok!
Not sure which "works" with flavor. Mechanically the difference between rolling seperate damage and rolling one is consistency. If you have a robe of stars of otherwise are casting magic missile at 5th level with a single damage roll 25% of the time you do just 14 damage but another 25% of the time you do 35 damage (ignoring the possibilty of them casting shield). If you roll seperately 90% of the time you do between 20 ad 29 points of damage. You can argue that the former "works" better but I like the idea that magic missile is the "reliable" spell, less damage on average than others at the same level but you know what it is going to do.
Mechanically if you are rolling physical dicethere can be an issue of slowing things down. You need to roll 7d4 but you only have 2 d4 dice so it takes 4 rolls and having to mentally add them up as you go. If you are rolling electronicaly this becomes less of an issue; 7d4+7 is just as easy ad 7*(1d4+1)
Good lord, reading into it much? It is a simple spell to understand, and players have been using it since 1975. lets simplify this, line by line. No RAW vs. RAI, No crazy min/maxing, no power gaming, no pulling one over on the DM, no crazy as hell damage, and no area of effect because it says range/area of 120 feet crap. Late at night and on mobile suffering from insomnia, you have been warned.
“You create three glowing darts of magical force”. At first level spell slot you have 3 darts. Casting it at a higher level spell slot grants the caster one additional dart per level past first, for a total of 11 darts with a 9th level spell slot. Ok?
“Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range”. A single dart hits a single creature within range of 120 feet, and does not require an attack roll or a saving throw. This means no chance to critically hit or add hex damage to the spell, no crazy maneuvers or bonuses from this book or that for ranged attacks or ranged spell attacks. NO attack roll is made at all. still with me?
”A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target”. One dart deals 1d4+1 damage to one target, thus by basic understanding of math and language, three darts you gain at the first level of casting will deal 1d4+1 for the first dart to a target, 1d4+1 for the second dart to a target, and 1d4+1 for the third dart to a target, all within the 120 foot range of the caster. This damage is per dart, and each dart can hit only one target once. Splitting hairs, I know, but moving on.
“you can direct them to hit one creature or several”. Again, a single dart may only hit one target once, but you MAY hit a single target with multiple darts. The character cast the spell using a first level spell slot and is given three balls of force that each fly towards a target. The target of each force ball is chosen at casting of the spell and the caster can target the same poor soul multiple times. So with a first level casting, the caster can target one individual with three darts, two individuals: one with one dart and another with two darts, or three individuals each with a single dart. Each dart does not penetrate, they don’t explode, they don’t ricochet, they simply smack the target and then disappear. Common sense, right?
“The darts all strike simultaneously”. The darts strike simultaneously, not one at a time. This means the strikes count as a single source of damage for things like resistance (for individuals that reduce damage per hit, the damage is only reduced for the total of damage taken, not per dart), and that 3 magic missiles striking a character at 0 HP does not count as 3 failed death saves. A concentrating spellcaster hit by multiple missiles makes one Constitution save against a difficulty class set by the volley’s total damage, not each hit. Since the spell is a single source, this also applies to effects that would increase the damage, such as a wizard’s Empowered Evocation. Even in the description of said power, it states: “The damage bonus applies to one damage roll of a spell, not multiple rolls”. Some DM’s will allow this damage bonus to be applied in full to separate targets, and while that is their prerogative, it is not RAW. I would be willing to let the bonus be divided out amongst the targets up to the total bonus. RAW multiple bonus of a similar source can only be applied once, and I consider the bonus damage being dealt to all targets as an instance of this rule.
Also, on page 196 of the Player’s Handbook. “If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them.” The argument of is it (1d4+1)x (x being the number of darts), or is it xd4+x is dumb. One method or another does not really speed things up. The end result is the damage from a single dart is 2-5 damage. PERIOD. This rule is in place to speed up gameplay for area of effect spells that have a single roll but the damage is applied equally to all targets inside the area like fireball or mass healing word.
This does NOT mean that you roll all the damage and each missile deals that much damage. That is ludicrous. By that thinking, MM cast at third level spell slot would give me up to 5 targets taking 10-25 damage each, where a fireball would deal 8-48 damage, save for half. If that were the case, all a player would ever need is a sack full of magic stones. The spell lasts 1 minuet or until used, bonus action to cast, size of a pebble so very little weight, get 3 stones per casting, spend a full minute preparing and placing them in a sack. All the stones inside the sack hit at same time so by that RAW logic I would deal (1d6+ spell casting modifier)x 30 damage. Even at a +1 spell modifier and rolling lowest, that would still be 60 damage. I missed? No worries, I will swing again next round and only loose out on 3 stones worth of damage unless I cast it again as a bonus action and throw them in the sack as part of my move action... This is all common sense and you are just arguing for arguments sake.
TLDR: The damage is 1d4+1 PER dart. You have 3 darts with a first level casting. You have 3d4+3 of dice damage to divided amongst up to 3 targets, each target taking 1d4+1 per dart that hits them. You are just arguing for arguments sake.
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Texas, I agree with you too. But, on these forums it is true that it is probably the first thing that someone will point to when they disagree with one of his rulings.
Most of the time, I find what he says is fairly accurate when considering some level of context. Too often, people point to his tweets without context or ask a question that doesn't have the detail required for a sufficient answer.
There are certainly not 2 choices. You've missed out:
3. Magic missile is a single effect that affects multiple targets, with the possibility of affecting the same target more than once. Each effect does the same damage.
4. Magic missile is a single effect that affects multiple targets, with the possibility of affecting the same target more than once. Each effect does different damage.
So I've noticed. What he says cannot be dismissed for the sake of RAI, however.
True, but in this case it’s a little hard to argue with ‘this is RAW, but it really doesn’t matter so do it whichever way makes you happy’ (paraphrased of course)
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#3 is RAW
#4 is how most people do it.
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I agree with you, however it does not change the fact that most of the time he is dismissed out of hand on these forums.
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Not supported by RAW. RAW is 'If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them.' 'Them' lexically refers to 'target'; thus, you roll damage once and apply the same damage to all targets. Also, that rule does not apply when all missiles are hitting the same target, because it is not dealing damage to more than one target. Strictly per RAW:
No.
RAW, you roll 1d4+1, and every dart does the same damage no matter how many targets, or how many darts.
RAF, play it however you like.
It’s the same as the “could target multiple creatures” technicality that means you cannot Twin Spell Eldritch Blast, even if you don’t target different creatures.
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That's rules as interpreted, not rules as written. Twin spell has has specific verbiage "To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level.", and if it did not have that verbiage, you could twin spell eldritch blast. Damage to multiple targets has no such verbiage.
Whatever dude. I honestly don’t give a damn if you understand why it is the way it is. Do whatever you want.
It’s been a long day and I’m tryin’a relax. Just don’t marsh my mellow and I don’t care how you play it.
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I really don't care if you roll the d4 once for all missiles or for each missile separately. In my eyes RAW is ambiguous and RAI is one roll for all missiles, but whatever. I just think it's bullshit something like Hexblade's Curse adds the extra damage to each missile creating a mininuke of a spell that cannot miss. It opens the door for min-max characters that completely unbalance a combat encounter once every rest.
Yeah, but that’s more on Hexblade than Magic Missile. Simple solution, make the encounters harder. 😈
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I'd probably adjust Hexblade's curse instead of adjusting magic missile. Hexblade is generally problematic in combination with multiclassing.
That’s why I balance around a higher power level. I can give PCs boons and Magic Items to raise their power level, harder to nerf a class feature without players getting salty. An average “combat” day for a party in a campaign I DM has 4 Deadly+ encounters. Like running a Gauntlet in Destiny 2.
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Just remember that Brooch of Shielding is merely Uncommon...
Hey, at least Magic Missile doesn't have an attack roll, or then you could do Hexblade's Curse and Hex on the same spell.
Wait.
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Or Scorching Ray, which has the benefit of not generally blowing up in your face. However, the combination cannot be done in less than two rounds (bonus action hex on round 1, along with a cantrip; bonus action hexblade's curse on round 2, along with your attack spell). The fact that hexblade's curse doesn't count as a spell and thus allows a leveled spell in the same round is another issue with hexblade.
Magic Missles hit simultaneously and without fail - you have to aim those eldo blastos, tho.
When you cast magic missile, the spell is created and the damage is dictated before "The darts all strike simultaneously". When you cast eldritch blast, you're aiming volatile crackling energy and not only do the blasts occur separately (as they have set a precedent for disclosing if they would hit simultaneously).
Roll for each if it's fun, but 1d4 works with the mechanics AND flavor better than separate rolls. The only benefit of house-ruling separate damage rolls is to feel the power of throwing caltrops, and that's totally ok!
Not sure which "works" with flavor. Mechanically the difference between rolling seperate damage and rolling one is consistency. If you have a robe of stars of otherwise are casting magic missile at 5th level with a single damage roll 25% of the time you do just 14 damage but another 25% of the time you do 35 damage (ignoring the possibilty of them casting shield). If you roll seperately 90% of the time you do between 20 ad 29 points of damage. You can argue that the former "works" better but I like the idea that magic missile is the "reliable" spell, less damage on average than others at the same level but you know what it is going to do.
Mechanically if you are rolling physical dicethere can be an issue of slowing things down. You need to roll 7d4 but you only have 2 d4 dice so it takes 4 rolls and having to mentally add them up as you go. If you are rolling electronicaly this becomes less of an issue; 7d4+7 is just as easy ad 7*(1d4+1)
Just roll for each missile and be done with it. Everyone likes to roll more dice. It's a fundamental part of the gameplay experience.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Good lord, reading into it much? It is a simple spell to understand, and players have been using it since 1975. lets simplify this, line by line. No RAW vs. RAI, No crazy min/maxing, no power gaming, no pulling one over on the DM, no crazy as hell damage, and no area of effect because it says range/area of 120 feet crap. Late at night and on mobile suffering from insomnia, you have been warned.
“You create three glowing darts of magical force”. At first level spell slot you have 3 darts. Casting it at a higher level spell slot grants the caster one additional dart per level past first, for a total of 11 darts with a 9th level spell slot. Ok?
“Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range”. A single dart hits a single creature within range of 120 feet, and does not require an attack roll or a saving throw. This means no chance to critically hit or add hex damage to the spell, no crazy maneuvers or bonuses from this book or that for ranged attacks or ranged spell attacks. NO attack roll is made at all. still with me?
”A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target”. One dart deals 1d4+1 damage to one target, thus by basic understanding of math and language, three darts you gain at the first level of casting will deal 1d4+1 for the first dart to a target, 1d4+1 for the second dart to a target, and 1d4+1 for the third dart to a target, all within the 120 foot range of the caster. This damage is per dart, and each dart can hit only one target once. Splitting hairs, I know, but moving on.
“you can direct them to hit one creature or several”. Again, a single dart may only hit one target once, but you MAY hit a single target with multiple darts. The character cast the spell using a first level spell slot and is given three balls of force that each fly towards a target. The target of each force ball is chosen at casting of the spell and the caster can target the same poor soul multiple times. So with a first level casting, the caster can target one individual with three darts, two individuals: one with one dart and another with two darts, or three individuals each with a single dart. Each dart does not penetrate, they don’t explode, they don’t ricochet, they simply smack the target and then disappear. Common sense, right?
“The darts all strike simultaneously”. The darts strike simultaneously, not one at a time. This means the strikes count as a single source of damage for things like resistance (for individuals that reduce damage per hit, the damage is only reduced for the total of damage taken, not per dart), and that 3 magic missiles striking a character at 0 HP does not count as 3 failed death saves. A concentrating spellcaster hit by multiple missiles makes one Constitution save against a difficulty class set by the volley’s total damage, not each hit. Since the spell is a single source, this also applies to effects that would increase the damage, such as a wizard’s Empowered Evocation. Even in the description of said power, it states: “The damage bonus applies to one damage roll of a spell, not multiple rolls”. Some DM’s will allow this damage bonus to be applied in full to separate targets, and while that is their prerogative, it is not RAW. I would be willing to let the bonus be divided out amongst the targets up to the total bonus. RAW multiple bonus of a similar source can only be applied once, and I consider the bonus damage being dealt to all targets as an instance of this rule.
Also, on page 196 of the Player’s Handbook. “If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them.” The argument of is it (1d4+1)x (x being the number of darts), or is it xd4+x is dumb. One method or another does not really speed things up. The end result is the damage from a single dart is 2-5 damage. PERIOD. This rule is in place to speed up gameplay for area of effect spells that have a single roll but the damage is applied equally to all targets inside the area like fireball or mass healing word.
This does NOT mean that you roll all the damage and each missile deals that much damage. That is ludicrous. By that thinking, MM cast at third level spell slot would give me up to 5 targets taking 10-25 damage each, where a fireball would deal 8-48 damage, save for half. If that were the case, all a player would ever need is a sack full of magic stones. The spell lasts 1 minuet or until used, bonus action to cast, size of a pebble so very little weight, get 3 stones per casting, spend a full minute preparing and placing them in a sack. All the stones inside the sack hit at same time so by that RAW logic I would deal (1d6+ spell casting modifier)x 30 damage. Even at a +1 spell modifier and rolling lowest, that would still be 60 damage. I missed? No worries, I will swing again next round and only loose out on 3 stones worth of damage unless I cast it again as a bonus action and throw them in the sack as part of my move action... This is all common sense and you are just arguing for arguments sake.
TLDR: The damage is 1d4+1 PER dart. You have 3 darts with a first level casting. You have 3d4+3 of dice damage to divided amongst up to 3 targets, each target taking 1d4+1 per dart that hits them. You are just arguing for arguments sake.