I have agreed with that from the beginning, most of the past posts have never made it clear that they were just detecting the presence of magic and not seeing the aura because it's invisible. Thanks for clarifying this to the point that you have actually been agreeing with me from the beginning.
Detect magic can detect the presence of magic, but not see any auras on invisible objects, so not know where the rope trick entrance is.
Now where do we stand on dispel magic affecting things in other dimensions (which is essentially another plane of existence)... I think you have to be on the same plane of existence for spells to interact... but not entirely sure on cross dimensional casting. Usually things that are on different planes of existence don't interact with each other.
I agree with this, but in the specific case of Rope Trick the portal is still present on this plane and could be dispelled if it can be located to be targeted.
So his post seems to suggest that if you used see invisibility to detect the portal, since it is still on this plane, that you could dispel it if it can be located to be targeted.
The portal or entrance?... or the extradimensional space?
No attacks or spells can pass through the entrance so you would not be able to target the extradimensional space... but could you target the entrance? and what would that do since it is not the actual spell, just the entrance? I saw one post that questioned whether the occupants would be trapped with no exit/entrance?
The way I understand Dispel Magic is that you have to target a creature, object, or magical effect. In this case there is no creature or object to target and the magical effect is not on this plane of existence, it is literally inside an extradimensional space which no attacks or spells can cross.
I don't think it can be dispelled.
Are you saying the portal created by rope trick is not a magical effect? Because I certainly think it is. I also think that the portal is part of the whole spell and that it would be pointless to separate the components of the spell (rope, portal, pocket dimension) and have them be independently dispellable though I guess that's another logical extrapolation. So my ruling is that the portal itself is a magical effect and that dispelling it dispels the entire spell.
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So his post seems to suggest that if you used see invisibility to detect the portal, since it is still on this plane, that you could dispel it if it can be located to be targeted.
The portal or entrance?... or the extradimensional space?
No attacks or spells can pass through the entrance so you would not be able to target the extradimensional space... but could you target the entrance? and what would that do since it is not the actual spell, just the entrance? I saw one post that questioned whether the occupants would be trapped with no exit/entrance?
The way I understand Dispel Magic is that you have to target a creature, object, or magical effect. In this case there is no creature or object to target and the magical effect is not on this plane of existence, it is literally inside an extradimensional space which no attacks or spells can cross.
I don't think it can be dispelled.
Are you saying the portal created by rope trick is not a magical effect? Because I certainly think it is. I also think that the portal is part of the whole spell and that it would be pointless to separate the components of the spell (rope, portal, pocket dimension) and have them be independently dispellable though I guess that's another logical extrapolation. So my ruling is that the portal itself is a magical effect and that dispelling it dispels the entire spell.
I don't think you can consider a portal in a plane anymore than you can consider a hallway to be in a room, but that nitpick is an aside. Dispel magic says:
Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends.
Rope trick is cast on the rope. The area portal is not the source of the spell (also the spell never uses the word portal, another aside nitpick). I imagine it like the portal (and whole space) is a projection and the rope is the projector.
Though since the entrance is centered on and attached to the end of the rope, I would imagine that if you can see the invisible entrance, you can probably see the rope too.
I don't think you can consider a portal in a plane anymore than you can consider a hallway to be in a room, but that nitpick is an aside. Dispel magic says:
Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends.
Rope trick is cast on the rope. The area portal is not the source of the spell (also the spell never uses the word portal, another aside nitpick).
Though since the entrance is centered on and attached to the end of the rope, I would imagine that if you can see the invisible entrance, you can probably see the rope too.
That is my take anyway.
Yes but it says “Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends.” That would imply that “the target” is not the target of the spell you are dispelling, but instead the target of the Dispel Magic, which could be any “magical effect” including the portal. The spell “on the portal/target” must be Rope Trick since that spell is what created the portal in the first place. Therefore, dispel the portal, dispel Rope Trick. Like saving cheerleaders and worlds.
I don't think you can consider a portal in a plane anymore than you can consider a hallway to be in a room, but that nitpick is an aside. Dispel magic says:
Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends.
Rope trick is cast on the rope. The area portal is not the source of the spell (also the spell never uses the word portal, another aside nitpick). I imagine it like the portal (and whole space) is a projection and the rope is the projector.
Though since the entrance is centered on and attached to the end of the rope, I would imagine that if you can see the invisible entrance, you can probably see the rope too.
That is my take anyway.
Yes but it says “Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends.” That would imply that “the target” is not the target of the spell you are dispelling, but instead the target of the Dispel Magic, which could be any “magical effect” including the portal. The spell “on the portal/target” must be Rope Trick since that spell is what created the portal in the first place.
My point being that rope trick is not "on" the portal, it is on the rope. I think my projector analogy I edited in seconds after you quoted me explains the way I imagine it.
How can you say that an "entrance" into a pocket dimension isn't a magical effect and specifically that the entrance created by Rope Trick is not part of the spell?
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How can you say that an "entrance" into a pocket dimension isn't a magical effect and specifically that the entrance created by Rope Trick is not part of the spell?
Yeah, I’m with Ophidimancer here. (Gosh that’s a long handle to type, is it okay if I call you Ophid or ‘mancer ot something as a nickname?)
I did not say the entrance wasn't a magical effect and I didn't say the entrance created by rope trick was not part of the spell.
Ok so if the entrance is a magical effect that means it can be targeted by Dispel Magic and if it is part of the Rope Trick then dispelling it could also dispel the rope trick, right? Unless you want to walk back one or both of those statements?
I don't think the 2 sides can come to an agreement.
Both sides have valid points that are (of course) not clearly stated in the rules.
All that matters is whether the DM thinks the invisible, empty space between an area made by a spell on an object and thin air is a valid target for dispelling said spell.
I don't think the 2 sides can come to an agreement.
Both sides have valid points that are (of course) not clearly stated in the rules.
All that matters is whether the DM thinks the invisible, empty space between an area made by a spell on an object and thin air is a valid target for dispelling said spell.
Again, it is not an empty space. There is a magical effect there. 'Empty space' is not merely 'invisible.' The Detect Invisibility spell does not render the caster blind by making the air visible.
The invisibility is magic, the space is magic, the entrance is not.
But all that matters is what the DM thinks, not what you or I think.
Using the same rules and logic... dispelling the entrance to rope trick will NOT dispel the rest of the spell, on the rope or the extradimensional space.
Like I said before, I think this is a logical conclusion. I think it's a bad one, but it's logical. Ehhh .... kinda. I mean what would happen if you dispelled the space and not the rope or the entrance? Would you get a rope floating in midair and an entrance connected to nothing? At that point, what even is the entrance anymore?
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Yes, but the empty space within the frame when the door is open simply does not exist... it is empty space, much like the entrance to the rope trick and therefore cannot be targeted or dispelled.
I know some of you want dispel magic to be able to dispel every spell but it simply cannot do so.
Many of you are simply restating the same thing... 'that dispel magic can dispel the rope trick'... but you are not providing any rules or justifiable reason why this is so... and simply restating it over and over will not make it so... do you also think a magic missile can hit an invisible creature?
If the dispel magic could target the rope trick then I would agree with you that is can be dispelled, but since it cannot there is but one conclusion:
Dispel Magic cannot dispel Rope Trick.
Magic Missile can hit an invisible target as long as you can see it.
Apparently you just want Rope Trick to be immune to dispel magic, but it simply is not.
You are simply restating the same thing... 'that rone trick cannot be targeted by dispel magic'... but you are not providing any rules or justifiable reason why this is so... and simply restating it over and over will not make it so...
If the dispel magic can target any “magical effect” and that magical effect is produced by a spell, and when dispel magic does target a magical effect it “ends the spell” then there is only one logical conclusion:
I agree with you wholeheartedly... except for one thing, you forgot the range of Dispel Magic. And since Rope Trick is out of range.
Dispel magic cannot dispel Rope Trick.
The range on Dispel Magic is 120 feet. As long as the entrance is within 120 feet, the entrance can be dispelled, and so therefore the rope trick can be dispelled. It’s not an “empty space” it’s like an invisible Stargate. There has to be something there or you would cross into an extradimensional space, you would just climb down the other side of the rope.
The range of dispel magic is 120 feet, the entrance is also in another dimension, the occupants there can look down through it. So it out of range and can't be targeted. Also can't be perceived with or without see invisible and therefore can't be targeted. Since it can't be targeted it can't be dispelled.
It is an "empty space" because it's never stated as being anything but an entrance, no substance there at all.
The whole point of Rope Trick is that there is nothing there, or else you would have to stop and open it, then close it afterward. The spell doesn't say this so it is... empty space.
If you made an illusion of a hole in a boat and then tried to use the Illusionist's 14th level feature Illusory Reality to make that hole the one object that was real from the illusion. It would not work because you are trying to make an empty space an object, there is no object but in fact the lack of one.
The entrance to rope trick is definitely not an object or I would say even a 'magical effect' as the spell does not list it as so, it is not even the main purpose of the spell. It is simply a by-product of the spell, an entrance to gain access to the actual 'magical effect' of the spell... the extradimensional space that is safe behind an entrance that cannot be targeted by attacks or spells.
Argue all you want, Dispel magic cannot dispel Rope Trick... it simply cannot target the spell or effect.
I am not making up that an empty space that is an entrance is an empty space that is an entrance... that is just common sense, you are the one trying to make it a solid or an object or anything that you can get your hands on to dispel... it quite simply is an opening to the extradimensional space that the occupants crawl through at the end of the rope to gain access, nothing more.
And I am not saying you have to target the target or whatever nonsense you bringing up now, trying to confuse the issue with repeating the word target and applying it to itself for some strange reason, which by the way has nothing to do with the fact that you cannot target the magical effect itself so therefore cannot dispel it.
You don’t have to “get your hands on it” to dispel it, it just needs to be a “magical effect.” A rip in reality leading to a pocket dimension within the space-time continuum must be a “magical effect” by it’s very nature.
It could be, but not necessarily... it isn't a rip in reality, it is an entrance, behind which is a magical effect that you cannot perceive or target and therefore cannot dispel.
You can’t put a door in a wall without first putting a hole there. In this case, it’s a hole in reality. That must be a “magical effect” by it’s very nature. Therefore, if you dispel the entrance you dispel the whole spell.
Let me try this another way. If the entrance is not created by the spell, then what created it?
Like through See Invisibility as one example.
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Are you saying the portal created by rope trick is not a magical effect? Because I certainly think it is. I also think that the portal is part of the whole spell and that it would be pointless to separate the components of the spell (rope, portal, pocket dimension) and have them be independently dispellable though I guess that's another logical extrapolation. So my ruling is that the portal itself is a magical effect and that dispelling it dispels the entire spell.
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The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Ditto
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I don't think you can consider a portal in a plane anymore than you can consider a hallway to be in a room, but that nitpick is an aside. Dispel magic says:
Rope trick is cast on the rope. The area portal is not the source of the spell (also the spell never uses the word portal, another aside nitpick). I imagine it like the portal (and whole space) is a projection and the rope is the projector.
Though since the entrance is centered on and attached to the end of the rope, I would imagine that if you can see the invisible entrance, you can probably see the rope too.
That is my take anyway.
Yes but it says “Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends.” That would imply that “the target” is not the target of the spell you are dispelling, but instead the target of the Dispel Magic, which could be any “magical effect” including the portal. The spell “on the portal/target” must be Rope Trick since that spell is what created the portal in the first place. Therefore, dispel the portal, dispel Rope Trick. Like saving cheerleaders and worlds.
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My point being that rope trick is not "on" the portal, it is on the rope. I think my projector analogy I edited in seconds after you quoted me explains the way I imagine it.
How can you say that an "entrance" into a pocket dimension isn't a magical effect and specifically that the entrance created by Rope Trick is not part of the spell?
Canto alla vita
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To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yeah, I’m with Ophidimancer here. (Gosh that’s a long handle to type, is it okay if I call you Ophid or ‘mancer ot something as a nickname?)
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Ophid is fine :)
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
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Oh thank you
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Ok so if the entrance is a magical effect that means it can be targeted by Dispel Magic and if it is part of the Rope Trick then dispelling it could also dispel the rope trick, right? Unless you want to walk back one or both of those statements?
Canto alla vita
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To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I don't think the 2 sides can come to an agreement.
Both sides have valid points that are (of course) not clearly stated in the rules.
All that matters is whether the DM thinks the invisible, empty space between an area made by a spell on an object and thin air is a valid target for dispelling said spell.
The invisibility is magic, the space is magic, the entrance is not.
But all that matters is what the DM thinks, not what you or I think.
Like I said before, I think this is a logical conclusion. I think it's a bad one, but it's logical. Ehhh .... kinda. I mean what would happen if you dispelled the space and not the rope or the entrance? Would you get a rope floating in midair and an entrance connected to nothing? At that point, what even is the entrance anymore?
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Is a door part of a house? Yes or no?
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Magic Missile can hit an invisible target as long as you can see it.
Apparently you just want Rope Trick to be immune to dispel magic, but it simply is not.
You are simply restating the same thing... 'that rone trick cannot be targeted by dispel magic'... but you are not providing any rules or justifiable reason why this is so... and simply restating it over and over will not make it so...
If the dispel magic can target any “magical effect” and that magical effect is produced by a spell, and when dispel magic does target a magical effect it “ends the spell” then there is only one logical conclusion:
Dispel Magic can dispel Rope Trick.
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The range on Dispel Magic is 120 feet. As long as the entrance is within 120 feet, the entrance can be dispelled, and so therefore the rope trick can be dispelled. It’s not an “empty space” it’s like an invisible Stargate. There has to be something there or you would cross into an extradimensional space, you would just climb down the other side of the rope.
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Go ask an AL Judge about that one.
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You don’t have to “get your hands on it” to dispel it, it just needs to be a “magical effect.” A rip in reality leading to a pocket dimension within the space-time continuum must be a “magical effect” by it’s very nature.
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You can’t put a door in a wall without first putting a hole there. In this case, it’s a hole in reality. That must be a “magical effect” by it’s very nature. Therefore, if you dispel the entrance you dispel the whole spell.
Let me try this another way. If the entrance is not created by the spell, then what created it?
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