So looking at this ability that is Part of Wizardly Quill.
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription
What would the gold cost be then. Normally it would be this.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
So if Im looking at this correctly RAW would be there is no gold cost to copy spells in there spell book.
I'm confused as well as previously stated the cost was for fine inks to record it, which wouldn't be needed with the quill. Also, if you can use the awakened spell book itself as a spellcasting focus, wouldn't that negate the other cost of material components (for mundane components only, of course)? Or does that only apply to casting, not learning it? If the casting time is significantly reduced, it would seem you would use less materials to learn it. Even so, the ink cost would be reduced, no? Really wish more was said in PHB or elsewhere (if it is and anyone has more info, please advise) on spell casting and focuses. One or two sentences is quite annoying. And when they introduce new material, clarification would be awesome! Ugh. Just adding a sentence "Cost remains the same" or "Cost is reduced by x". I get that eliminating cost would be very powerful, but how hard is it to put that in the rules so there's no wondering. End rant.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somaticcomponents.
Material components still need to be understood to learn the spell even if you use a focus instead (though that doesn't account for spells with no material components).
You can explain the why of it however it makes the most sense to you, but the rules don't reduce the cost of copying spells. Maybe the ink produced by the quill isn't the right kind for spellbooks.
Thank you for replying, makes sense. And I get the need to keep it simple, same as Identify costs the same to scribe as any other 1st lvl spell, despite the higher material component cost.
The cost of experimenting while you transcribe the spell isn't simply inks and material components. Your character has to figure out how the spell works, figure out via trial and error between different types of material components, combine certain thaumaturgic reagents and fully analyze the contents of it as they de-code the spell into something they fully understand. It takes lab time. Remember, other wizards keep their spellbooks encoded with a unique cypher so other mages can't steal their secrets. Copying down another wizard's spell should take a lot of trial and error, hence the gold cost.
Your explanation doesn't make sense in game, at least rules as written. The order of the scribe does all that (decrypt, understand, copy) in minutes not hours. There is also the argument buried that someone with linguist would get a cost break since they're used to dealing with codes.
Its all game balance. Realistically its just badly written.
Your explanation doesn't make sense in game, at least rules as written. The order of the scribe does all that (decrypt, understand, copy) in minutes not hours. There is also the argument buried that someone with linguist would get a cost break since they're used to dealing with codes.
Its all game balance. Realistically its just badly written.
It's not just codes though, it's discovery. Imagine breaking the code and narrowing down some archaic symbol the other Mage used to denote a material components, but not knowing specifically what they meant cause this is a personal Cypher that they wrote themselves, but you've narrowed it down to like 20 possibilities. You need to buy all those different components and try casting the spell with all of them in order to see which one works or which one works best. Even if you usually use a focus, you still need to get the base formula exactly right for it to work properly.
And then let's say there's some things you need not just for material components, but maybe there are certain magical components that have revelatory properties so like, maybe you need Powdered Moonglass while you cast a permutation of the spell to see if you're right in thinking this spell is meant to have a longer or shorter duration, or obsidian crystals to determine damage type or area of effect. I would say in working through the spells code, you narrow down the final parameters of the spell till you know *what* you need to determine through experimentation, but you still need to experiment to be certain.
Your explanation doesn't make sense in game, at least rules as written. The order of the scribe does all that (decrypt, understand, copy) in minutes not hours. There is also the argument buried that someone with linguist would get a cost break since they're used to dealing with codes.
Its all game balance. Realistically its just badly written.
Once you get into analyzing the game as realistic, you run into a LOT of details that make no dang sense. It's best to think of it as a game first, a storytelling medium second, and a simulation a distant third.
Your explanation doesn't make sense in game, at least rules as written. The order of the scribe does all that (decrypt, understand, copy) in minutes not hours. There is also the argument buried that someone with linguist would get a cost break since they're used to dealing with codes.
Its all game balance. Realistically its just badly written.
It's not just codes though, it's discovery. Imagine breaking the code and narrowing down some archaic symbol the other Mage used to denote a material components, but not knowing specifically what they meant cause this is a personal Cypher that they wrote themselves, but you've narrowed it down to like 20 possibilities. You need to buy all those different components and try casting the spell with all of them in order to see which one works or which one works best. Even if you usually use a focus, you still need to get the base formula exactly right for it to work properly.
And then let's say there's some things you need not just for material components, but maybe there are certain magical components that have revelatory properties so like, maybe you need Powdered Moonglass while you cast a permutation of the spell to see if you're right in thinking this spell is meant to have a longer or shorter duration, or obsidian crystals to determine damage type or area of effect. I would say in working through the spells code, you narrow down the final parameters of the spell till you know *what* you need to determine through experimentation, but you still need to experiment to be certain.
And order of the scribe does it all in MINUTES not hours. Figuring out and copying a 9th level spell is only 18 Minutes as opposed to 18 Hours.
It all comes down to game balance. The badly worded justification in the general rule doesn't match the specific rule in Order of the scribe. Remember specific overrides general.
In homebrew it doesn't matter. The player is going to talk to the DM for clarification. in Adventure League, I'm going to argue that 'it cost the Order of the Scribe 0 GP to copy a spell', because the specific rule overrides the general one. At least until they come out with an official clarification.
Your explanation doesn't make sense in game, at least rules as written. The order of the scribe does all that (decrypt, understand, copy) in minutes not hours. There is also the argument buried that someone with linguist would get a cost break since they're used to dealing with codes.
Its all game balance. Realistically its just badly written.
It's not just codes though, it's discovery. Imagine breaking the code and narrowing down some archaic symbol the other Mage used to denote a material components, but not knowing specifically what they meant cause this is a personal Cypher that they wrote themselves, but you've narrowed it down to like 20 possibilities. You need to buy all those different components and try casting the spell with all of them in order to see which one works or which one works best. Even if you usually use a focus, you still need to get the base formula exactly right for it to work properly.
And then let's say there's some things you need not just for material components, but maybe there are certain magical components that have revelatory properties so like, maybe you need Powdered Moonglass while you cast a permutation of the spell to see if you're right in thinking this spell is meant to have a longer or shorter duration, or obsidian crystals to determine damage type or area of effect. I would say in working through the spells code, you narrow down the final parameters of the spell till you know *what* you need to determine through experimentation, but you still need to experiment to be certain.
And order of the scribe does it all in MINUTES not hours. Figuring out and copying a 9th level spell is only 18 Minutes as opposed to 18 Hours.
It all comes down to game balance. The badly worded justification in the general rule doesn't match the specific rule in Order of the scribe. Remember specific overrides general.
In homebrew it doesn't matter. The player is going to talk to the DM for clarification. in Adventure League, I'm going to argue that 'it cost the Order of the Scribe 0 GP to copy a spell', because the specific rule overrides the general one. At least until they come out with an official clarification.
You would be wrong and any DM that let you would be wrong, since the only mention of cost is the base class feature (50gp per level). Specific does over rule general, but nothing doesn't over rule anything. You can still try though.
Your explanation doesn't make sense in game, at least rules as written. The order of the scribe does all that (decrypt, understand, copy) in minutes not hours. There is also the argument buried that someone with linguist would get a cost break since they're used to dealing with codes.
Its all game balance. Realistically its just badly written.
It's not just codes though, it's discovery. Imagine breaking the code and narrowing down some archaic symbol the other Mage used to denote a material components, but not knowing specifically what they meant cause this is a personal Cypher that they wrote themselves, but you've narrowed it down to like 20 possibilities. You need to buy all those different components and try casting the spell with all of them in order to see which one works or which one works best. Even if you usually use a focus, you still need to get the base formula exactly right for it to work properly.
And then let's say there's some things you need not just for material components, but maybe there are certain magical components that have revelatory properties so like, maybe you need Powdered Moonglass while you cast a permutation of the spell to see if you're right in thinking this spell is meant to have a longer or shorter duration, or obsidian crystals to determine damage type or area of effect. I would say in working through the spells code, you narrow down the final parameters of the spell till you know *what* you need to determine through experimentation, but you still need to experiment to be certain.
And order of the scribe does it all in MINUTES not hours. Figuring out and copying a 9th level spell is only 18 Minutes as opposed to 18 Hours.
It all comes down to game balance. The badly worded justification in the general rule doesn't match the specific rule in Order of the scribe. Remember specific overrides general.
In homebrew it doesn't matter. The player is going to talk to the DM for clarification. in Adventure League, I'm going to argue that 'it cost the Order of the Scribe 0 GP to copy a spell', because the specific rule overrides the general one. At least until they come out with an official clarification.
Specific overrides general, but in this instance the specific rule ("The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.") only refers to the Time cost, and not the Gold cost. So the time requirement is overridden by this specific rule, but this specific rule does not also say "... and reduces the gold required to 0", so mechanically you have to conclude that the gold cost remains.
As stated above, you can come up with any fantasy-rationale for why that is or what that looks like, it's pretty easy to make one up, it's just of debatable usefulness because the rule is still the rule regardless.
I agree for game balance that copying the spells does cost gold. I'm arguing for a rules clarification in Adventure League.
The quill doesn’t require ink. When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface.
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.
You can use the book as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
Vs
From the basic wizard
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
- - - - - - -
Order of Scribe doesn't require ink and doesn't require material components because the spellbook itself is the focus. Again badly worded justification, just declare game balance and do a version update for AL rules.
The description says it doesn't require ink to write. But copying spells is more than writing. Maybe the quill still needs magic ink to do the important parts.
If all you needed was a spell focus to get around the material component costs, every class could do it. Maybe you need to use the native components when you're learning.
But the real answer is it costs 50 gold for game design purposes and then they threw out some flavor as to why. On close inspection, those stated costs don't make a lot of sense - ink is cheap even if you're grinding up gold into it, most spell components are functionally free, and the spells that require super expensive spell components are no more expensive to learn. One of the many areas where 5e's blurred lines between mechanics and flavor causes confusion and undermines their intended design.
The description says it doesn't require ink to write. But copying spells is more than writing. Maybe the quill still needs magic ink to do the important parts.
If all you needed was a spell focus to get around the material component costs, every class could do it. Maybe you need to use the native components when you're learning.
But the real answer is it costs 50 gold for game design purposes and then they threw out some flavor as to why. On close inspection, those stated costs don't make a lot of sense - ink is cheap even if you're grinding up gold into it, most spell components are functionally free, and the spells that require super expensive spell components are no more expensive to learn. One of the many areas where 5e's blurred lines between mechanics and flavor causes confusion and undermines their intended design.
Pretty much the same thing I said in comment 4, 3 weeks ago.
On "using book as a focus," see my past comment on how, when transcribing a spell, in-fiction you probably still need the components until you understand the basic form of the spell well enough to substitute them out with a focus. That's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why you'd have to do that if that's what you're really getting hung up on. Gotta walk before you can run, gotta learn multiplication tables yourself before teacher lets you use a calculator in class, and you need to figure out your material components before you can cast with a focus.
Not to mention, a spell focus only replaces material components of a spell when there is no gold cost otherwise associated with them. Transcribing a spell does have a cost associated with it, so a focus wouldn't work. This isn't even specific to Sribe wizards, as a Divination wizard with a wand wouldn't be able to ignore the gold cost either.
The description says it doesn't require ink to write. But copying spells is more than writing. Maybe the quill still needs magic ink to do the important parts.
If all you needed was a spell focus to get around the material component costs, every class could do it. Maybe you need to use the native components when you're learning.
But the real answer is it costs 50 gold for game design purposes and then they threw out some flavor as to why. On close inspection, those stated costs don't make a lot of sense - ink is cheap even if you're grinding up gold into it, most spell components are functionally free, and the spells that require super expensive spell components are no more expensive to learn. One of the many areas where 5e's blurred lines between mechanics and flavor causes confusion and undermines their intended design.
Pretty much the same thing I said in comment 4, 3 weeks ago.
I think of it like this: a spell is like a light-bulb. You can't go from light-bulb blueprints to a working flashlight without a few materials. You're not going to need new glass for the bulb, new thread for the filament, new wiring, or new metal screwy part EVERY time you turn on the light-- you just need a little electricity and you need to figure out how much the bulb can take-- but you do need ALL that stuff, the blueprints, and the money to buy it, and a little extra in case you need to revise your lightbulb designs along the way, you need ALL that stuff the FIRST time you make it.
Now imagine a spell has just as many base components and design specifications as that lightbulb (we don't have to know what they are, we're not IRL wizards, we just have to accept that they're there), and think of the transcribing process as decoding the blueprints, modifying the design, and building that lightbulb.
The scribe wizard comes with a laptop (Awakened Spellbook) that's programmed to streamline the design process, but you still have to build the light-bulb.
Again, I'm not arguing game balance. I'm arguing AL needs to come out with a clear rules update.
And again nothing is unclear. Wizard sets a price and order of scribes does not change the price, so the price is the same.
The very fact that you can probably copy spells without using downtime in AL is already a pretty good buff.
This is like trying to argue that a coupon for a 1$ burger doesn't say you have to pay full price for fries and drink so they should be free. It just doesn't work that way.
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So looking at this ability that is Part of Wizardly Quill.
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription
What would the gold cost be then. Normally it would be this.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
So if Im looking at this correctly RAW would be there is no gold cost to copy spells in there spell book.
It would be the normal cost. No part of the effect changes the cost, only changes the time, so the default cost is still in effect.
I'm confused as well as previously stated the cost was for fine inks to record it, which wouldn't be needed with the quill. Also, if you can use the awakened spell book itself as a spellcasting focus, wouldn't that negate the other cost of material components (for mundane components only, of course)? Or does that only apply to casting, not learning it? If the casting time is significantly reduced, it would seem you would use less materials to learn it. Even so, the ink cost would be reduced, no? Really wish more was said in PHB or elsewhere (if it is and anyone has more info, please advise) on spell casting and focuses. One or two sentences is quite annoying. And when they introduce new material, clarification would be awesome! Ugh. Just adding a sentence "Cost remains the same" or "Cost is reduced by x". I get that eliminating cost would be very powerful, but how hard is it to put that in the rules so there's no wondering. End rant.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Material components still need to be understood to learn the spell even if you use a focus instead (though that doesn't account for spells with no material components).
You can explain the why of it however it makes the most sense to you, but the rules don't reduce the cost of copying spells. Maybe the ink produced by the quill isn't the right kind for spellbooks.
Thank you for replying, makes sense. And I get the need to keep it simple, same as Identify costs the same to scribe as any other 1st lvl spell, despite the higher material component cost.
The cost of experimenting while you transcribe the spell isn't simply inks and material components. Your character has to figure out how the spell works, figure out via trial and error between different types of material components, combine certain thaumaturgic reagents and fully analyze the contents of it as they de-code the spell into something they fully understand. It takes lab time. Remember, other wizards keep their spellbooks encoded with a unique cypher so other mages can't steal their secrets. Copying down another wizard's spell should take a lot of trial and error, hence the gold cost.
Another super explanation that really resonates, was hoping more people would jump in. Thank you, appreciate it.
Your explanation doesn't make sense in game, at least rules as written. The order of the scribe does all that (decrypt, understand, copy) in minutes not hours. There is also the argument buried that someone with linguist would get a cost break since they're used to dealing with codes.
Its all game balance. Realistically its just badly written.
It's not just codes though, it's discovery. Imagine breaking the code and narrowing down some archaic symbol the other Mage used to denote a material components, but not knowing specifically what they meant cause this is a personal Cypher that they wrote themselves, but you've narrowed it down to like 20 possibilities. You need to buy all those different components and try casting the spell with all of them in order to see which one works or which one works best. Even if you usually use a focus, you still need to get the base formula exactly right for it to work properly.
And then let's say there's some things you need not just for material components, but maybe there are certain magical components that have revelatory properties so like, maybe you need Powdered Moonglass while you cast a permutation of the spell to see if you're right in thinking this spell is meant to have a longer or shorter duration, or obsidian crystals to determine damage type or area of effect. I would say in working through the spells code, you narrow down the final parameters of the spell till you know *what* you need to determine through experimentation, but you still need to experiment to be certain.
Once you get into analyzing the game as realistic, you run into a LOT of details that make no dang sense. It's best to think of it as a game first, a storytelling medium second, and a simulation a distant third.
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And order of the scribe does it all in MINUTES not hours. Figuring out and copying a 9th level spell is only 18 Minutes as opposed to 18 Hours.
It all comes down to game balance. The badly worded justification in the general rule doesn't match the specific rule in Order of the scribe. Remember specific overrides general.
In homebrew it doesn't matter. The player is going to talk to the DM for clarification. in Adventure League, I'm going to argue that 'it cost the Order of the Scribe 0 GP to copy a spell', because the specific rule overrides the general one. At least until they come out with an official clarification.
You would be wrong and any DM that let you would be wrong, since the only mention of cost is the base class feature (50gp per level). Specific does over rule general, but nothing doesn't over rule anything. You can still try though.
Specific overrides general, but in this instance the specific rule ("The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.") only refers to the Time cost, and not the Gold cost. So the time requirement is overridden by this specific rule, but this specific rule does not also say "... and reduces the gold required to 0", so mechanically you have to conclude that the gold cost remains.
As stated above, you can come up with any fantasy-rationale for why that is or what that looks like, it's pretty easy to make one up, it's just of debatable usefulness because the rule is still the rule regardless.
I agree for game balance that copying the spells does cost gold. I'm arguing for a rules clarification in Adventure League.
Vs
From the basic wizard
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
- - - - - - -
Order of Scribe doesn't require ink and doesn't require material components because the spellbook itself is the focus. Again badly worded justification, just declare game balance and do a version update for AL rules.
But the real answer is it costs 50 gold for game design purposes and then they threw out some flavor as to why. On close inspection, those stated costs don't make a lot of sense - ink is cheap even if you're grinding up gold into it, most spell components are functionally free, and the spells that require super expensive spell components are no more expensive to learn. One of the many areas where 5e's blurred lines between mechanics and flavor causes confusion and undermines their intended design.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Pretty much the same thing I said in comment 4, 3 weeks ago.
On "using book as a focus," see my past comment on how, when transcribing a spell, in-fiction you probably still need the components until you understand the basic form of the spell well enough to substitute them out with a focus. That's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why you'd have to do that if that's what you're really getting hung up on. Gotta walk before you can run, gotta learn multiplication tables yourself before teacher lets you use a calculator in class, and you need to figure out your material components before you can cast with a focus.
Not to mention, a spell focus only replaces material components of a spell when there is no gold cost otherwise associated with them. Transcribing a spell does have a cost associated with it, so a focus wouldn't work. This isn't even specific to Sribe wizards, as a Divination wizard with a wand wouldn't be able to ignore the gold cost either.
I think of it like this: a spell is like a light-bulb. You can't go from light-bulb blueprints to a working flashlight without a few materials. You're not going to need new glass for the bulb, new thread for the filament, new wiring, or new metal screwy part EVERY time you turn on the light-- you just need a little electricity and you need to figure out how much the bulb can take-- but you do need ALL that stuff, the blueprints, and the money to buy it, and a little extra in case you need to revise your lightbulb designs along the way, you need ALL that stuff the FIRST time you make it.
Now imagine a spell has just as many base components and design specifications as that lightbulb (we don't have to know what they are, we're not IRL wizards, we just have to accept that they're there), and think of the transcribing process as decoding the blueprints, modifying the design, and building that lightbulb.
The scribe wizard comes with a laptop (Awakened Spellbook) that's programmed to streamline the design process, but you still have to build the light-bulb.
Again, I'm not arguing game balance. I'm arguing AL needs to come out with a clear rules update.
And again nothing is unclear. Wizard sets a price and order of scribes does not change the price, so the price is the same.
The very fact that you can probably copy spells without using downtime in AL is already a pretty good buff.
This is like trying to argue that a coupon for a 1$ burger doesn't say you have to pay full price for fries and drink so they should be free. It just doesn't work that way.