Uh huh. That's the sort of single sentence power limitation that is missing from Healing Spirit to prevent it being misused.
As has been pointed out many times, this thread is not trying to claim that Healing Spirit breaks games often or at all, nor that a DM can't very easily home rule a solution or ban the spell entirely. The point of the thread is that a DM shouldn't have to. No other spell at this level needs anywhere near this amount of thought from a DM.
Unless you're playing Adventurer's League in which case you're forced to accept it as written.
I'll agree in a home brew this is easily and immediately fixable.
Even so, the developers know perfectly well how it is used and how it functions and they do not have an issue with it in Adventurer's League as written. You still have to ask, "what is the true issue around the spell if the person or persons who wrote it don't have a problem with it in their regulated organized gameplay?"
This all boils down to adversarial DM's stating "my players used a spell to get to full health without a short rest and I as the DM did not want them to do that, I wanted them to stay lower health, this was not fair to me the DM, therefore it is broken."
Nah, what he's saying is it's not fair to the players who focussed their character build on effective healing to be made ineffective by comparison.
I'd say that's not an issue. Features like the healer feat or Song of Rest are worthless? Only if you think there's no value in not spending a spell slot when the alternative is to spend a spell slot.
There are situations where this spell could and will be used to extraordinary effect. That's ok. There are still situations (many more of them in fact) where it won't work out that way, and your healers should be happy to have extra spell slots available when that time comes.
Unless you're playing Adventurer's League in which case you're forced to accept it as written.
I'll agree in a home brew this is easily and immediately fixable.
Even so, the developers know perfectly well how it is used and how it functions and they do not have an issue with it in Adventurer's League as written. You still have to ask, "what is the true issue around the spell if the person or persons who wrote it don't have a problem with it in their regulated organized gameplay?"
This all boils down to adversarial DM's stating "my players used a spell to get to full health without a short rest and I as the DM did not want them to do that, I wanted them to stay lower health, this was not fair to me the DM, therefore it is broken."
That's really not what I'm saying at all. Boiled down to bullet points my stance is essentially this:
Healing spirit when used out of combat heals so effectively that all other healing feats, spells, classes are garbage in comparison.
This makes the game feel unbalanced.
This makes other characters - especially healing specialists like Life Clerics - feel like their character is garbage next to the Healing Spirit wielder.
Some adventures - like Adventurers League epics - are designed to wear down player resources over time so that the final fight feels truly difficult
Healing Spirit is so efficacious in this regard that it is nearly impossible to achieve the desired level of resource drain since any party that survives a fight rockets back to full health with a single 2nd level slot.
Not sure if I mentioned it but a 2nd level spell that can heal between 35 - 70 pts per party member in a minute is stupidly overpowered compared to all other healing spells and mechanisms.
I recommend building a Healing Spirit Sled in any campaign dumb enough to allow the spell as is so your party can push each other through the healing square in rapid rotation and ramp this obviously broken bad boy up to a glaring 60d6 or 70d6 (depends on party size) PER party member in a minute. Meanwhile the Bard's song of rest heals for 1d6 - 1d8. I bet the Bard feels like he's really helping out.
Based on my personal experience, and many of the comments made in this thread, can we at least agree that when used in combat the spell is fine as it is? There are lots of ways to close it down, it requires character agency (which most healing does not) and (and here's the part I REALLY like), the bad guys can do it too.
My players nearly shit themselves when they realized that all of the mooks they were fighting (trying to go one on one) were ducking out, getting healed in the other room, then coming back!
So it's the out-of-combat part that people seem to have issue with. Okay, let's focus on that. To me, the biggest issue with the spell is that it breaks many of the normal conventions for Healing magic. Most Healing spells are either cast and done for a specific amount or (in the case of Regenerate) they heal 1 HP per turn or 10 per minute. Now in a resting situation Regenerate can heal a single target up but it's 7th level and only works on ONE target.
So if we unpack Healing Spirit, what exactly is the problem with it out of combat? Is it that it heals so much, that it heals EVERYONE so much or that it's 2nd level? IMHO it's the last one. At 2nd level, in order to keep the spell more in line with other 2nd level Healing spells, it should heal the party for 2 HP per minute for ten minutes or 20 HP per character. This perfectly balances Prayer of Healing (2d8 + Wis modifier, 30' radius, 10 minutes to cast) or a whole bunch of Cure spells cast at 2nd level.
It’s a legitimate spell. Why would you punish the party for doing something legitimate, especially when the prepared in advance so as to not be surprised by an encounter?
We actually balance the game assuming player characters are at full health. We have to do that, since an encounter could happen at any point. An extra powerful healing spell doesn't unbalance the game. But it can disrupt what feels right to a group. That's what concerns us.
We run it by saying it only works on one person per round, so whoever is the first target of a round gets the healing. Makes the spell very useful, but removes the crazy part.
Would you apply that same logic to multiple round duration Area damage spell, as for example wall of fire? Same variable effect - either really effective or rubbish based on number of targets hit and number of rounds it does so.
couldn't you just make every time the group cast it become an encounter scenario ie. roll initiative and get 10 turns of action = 1min, each person would get a chance to enter into the "encounter" with the spirit? it would basically be 10d6 of healing but also the group can't really choose because there's no real delay action...
that way it works the same mechanically no matter what
Jon the argument is that if you had 1000(for example) people, then all could benefit each round from the healing spirit. (providing movement scores allowed) This was stated by its opponents as way too much as its more than the highest healing spell of ninth level. Which is true.
It works as dragons breath, which deals 3d6 to everyone in its radius each round, dealing a possible maximum (with a battlegrid) 180d6 damage with a 2nd level spell - clearly more than some ninth level damage dealing spells. Which is true.
The reasonable argument is that healing spirit disrupts a game because it heals the entire party 'guaranteed' out of combat. Where as in combat its rather tricky to have it benefit everyone / not lose concentration / provoke more Attacks going to heal than is worth what you could recover. This is true
The healer feat using Bandage-Fu also heals a lot, oddly more than many healing spells of the same level will manage if the entire party is bandaged . This is mostly ignored but also true.
Some appear to be disheartened that the cleric is no longer the clear front runner for best healer because of this one spell. This is unreasonable but also true.
If you are running a game and healing spirit is causing you problems then you may need to work with the caster to avoid it continuing to cause you problems. Good advice for any issues and also true!
If you think any of this is a problem for your game, wait until you get a load of the ring(s) of shared suffering in wayfinders guide to eberron (if it remains as is) placed on the little finger of a vegepygmy it will provide unlimited healing of two per round to you whilst the vegepygmy remains happily in a garden somewhere else on the planet. This is hilarious but also true.
ah i get it now. yeah that makes sense. it seems like a cool, tactical spell in combat but out of combat yes, broken.
Maybe there's an easy way to theme it as mostly a battle spell ie. when in combat the spirit gains strength and the effect lasts longer. when cast out of combat it lasts only 15 seconds or so because the spirit realizes you're not in danger.
ah i get it now. yeah that makes sense. it seems like a cool, tactical spell in combat but out of combat yes, broken.
Maybe there's an easy way to theme it as mostly a battle spell ie. when in combat the spirit gains strength and the effect lasts longer. when cast out of combat it lasts only 15 seconds or so because the spirit realizes you're not in danger.
Yeah the whole thing with this spell is how ridiculously good it is out of combat. I think it was initially designed the way that it was to sort of mirror HoT (Heal over time) mechanics from MMOs; drop the spirit on the square the main tank is on with the expectation that they probably won't be moving, but with the ability to move it to a different "target" as needed. It's this loop that makes the spell controversial. I'd suggest just making the spell be targeted on a single creature at any time, bonus action to move it to another creature. Spell otherwise functions exactly the same as normal. Still a super amazing 2nd level spell that outperforms every other form of healing at equivalent level.
Alternatively, just make it function like an actual summoned spirit (or like spiritual weapon, to a degree). Make the spirit actually occupy a square, give it an AC & HP score, and let it heal a target once per round (no action needed).
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
ah i get it now. yeah that makes sense. it seems like a cool, tactical spell in combat but out of combat yes, broken.
Broken depends on whether you need your party to remain knackered after a combat ends. Even if they heal up, they are still down on spells and other resources. So why do you need them to remain injured?
Yeah the whole thing with this spell is how ridiculously good it is out of combat. I think it was initially designed the way that it was to sort of mirror HoT (Heal over time) mechanics from MMOs; drop the spirit on the square the main tank is on with the expectation that they probably won't be moving, but with the ability to move it to a different "target" as needed. It's this loop that makes the spell controversial. I'd suggest just making the spell be targeted on a single creature at any time, bonus action to move it to another creature. Spell otherwise functions exactly the same as normal. Still a super amazing 2nd level spell that outperforms every other form of healing at equivalent level.
Alternatively, just make it function like an actual summoned spirit (or like spiritual weapon, to a degree). Make the spirit actually occupy a square, give it an AC & HP score, and let it heal a target once per round (no action needed).
And this is a common view. Do note it doesnt touch on this being the same mechanic as damage per round spells. This is hopefully because the majority of people havent had tunnels or rooms turned into ovens with wall of fire whilst the party bars the exit and sits down to wait out the xp farm, with no chance of any further combat or damage taken. If however it is the potential recovery out of combat that is the concern the observer has to account for why other multi heal options arent equally considered problems - Bandage Fu being a prime contender, prayer of healing if its simply the out of combat aspect is also in trouble. Does healing spirit heal more? Yes, potentially dependant on party size.
Why and where is the line to be drawn for when a spell is a problem? When running a game, its a rare one indeed that has three or more non casters and one healer. In that scenario the melee will find that the lack of reliance of long rest resources means that one of the only limits to their ability to continue is healing. If it is a druid/bard* healer using healing spirit then the group may well be able to continue on further than say, if the healer was a cleric. This will result in the non casters having a blast. And where is the problem in that? Players use abilities and plans to overcome obstacles. Healing being poured into a party like alchohol on a stag night suggests something went wrong. Would you want an adventure to end before its time due to a healer having to use all their spells on healing, never getting to use anything else just to recover? I hope not. Its no fun for them if they dont get to try out their arsenal.
Maybe you do. In my nightmares I dont see healing spirit. I do hear the seemingly innocent 'I send my invisible familiar into the caves scouting through his eyes' which started a mapping of a cave with no secondary exit. Two stoneshapes and small access slot in a blocked exit later for a party taking turns with a decanter of endless water to flood the place and drown a dungeon? Yeah that is where you learn as DM - Having no secondary exit / run off is a problem.
Really glad you mentioned Prayer of Healing since that's the other extreme of healing spell (im)balance.
Healing Spirit:
2nd level spell
6 second cast time
Does not have ritual tag
Castable both in and out of combat
Capable of healing multiple people
Capable of healing across multiple rounds (up to 10)
1d6 (no modifier) healing per person (up to 10d6)
No limit on # of people it can affect
Prayer of Healing:
2nd level spell
10 minute cast time
Does not have ritual tag
Castable out of combat (when are you going to have 10 full minutes in combat, and why would you ever spend it casting this spell?!)
Capable of healing multiple people
Not capable of healing across multiple rounds
2d8 + modifier healing per person (up to total of 12d8 + (6 * mod) total healing)
Capped at a maximum of 6 people
If we assume a party size of 4, then the issue of maximum targets is moot. Out of combat healing is what we're looking at:
Healing spirit can supply the entire party with up to 40d6 (10d6 per person) for an average of 30HP per person (120HP to party). Takes a maximum of 1 minute to do this.
Prayer of Healing can supply the party with up to 8d8 + (4 * mod). If we assume a spellcasting modifier of +4, then PoH can supply an average of 12HP per person (48HP to party). This takes a minimum of 10 minutes to do. WHAT?!?
Healing spirit is insanely more effective at healing out of combat than the one spell that is explicitly designed to be the "out of combat healing spell"
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
And again we return to- why does it matter how effective out of combat healing is? Your party out of combat can rest and recover by spell potion bandage or rest, the difference is how long it takes - what is the issue with the timescale that damages the adventure? The argument that it heals more than prayer of healing means that druids heal more than clerics, is what? Ignoring the fact that before it existed prayer of healing was a class specific spell which made clerics sought out for out of combat recovery, and when druids received a spell that facilitated this out of combat healing became a problem. Sig, whats the threshhold for your adventures at which healing (and continuing on with an adventure) becomes a problem, and importantly why? You will likely find it isnt when you play it out.
Sig, your conclusion is that HS is better than PoH, whats really happened is now druids are currently capable of more restoration than clerics. Times changed.
The problem isn't that players starting with full healing breaks the game. It's that druids and rangers can outheal Life Clerics - you know, the subclass designed entirely around being the best healer - and that's a pretty feelbad thing for the Life Cleric player. And this wasn't some deliberate push to make druids the best healer; it was a QA miss on the D&D team's part.The spell wasn't intended to be anywhere as good as it is.
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Catnap repeatedly? I thought Catnap couldnt be benefited from twice unless there was a long rest between them, now I have to research!
Dag, your right. *crumbles a sheet and tosses it in the bin*
Extended Signature
Uh huh. That's the sort of single sentence power limitation that is missing from Healing Spirit to prevent it being misused.
As has been pointed out many times, this thread is not trying to claim that Healing Spirit breaks games often or at all, nor that a DM can't very easily home rule a solution or ban the spell entirely. The point of the thread is that a DM shouldn't have to. No other spell at this level needs anywhere near this amount of thought from a DM.
Unless you're playing Adventurer's League in which case you're forced to accept it as written.
I'll agree in a home brew this is easily and immediately fixable.
Even so, the developers know perfectly well how it is used and how it functions and they do not have an issue with it in Adventurer's League as written. You still have to ask, "what is the true issue around the spell if the person or persons who wrote it don't have a problem with it in their regulated organized gameplay?"
This all boils down to adversarial DM's stating "my players used a spell to get to full health without a short rest and I as the DM did not want them to do that, I wanted them to stay lower health, this was not fair to me the DM, therefore it is broken."
Nah, what he's saying is it's not fair to the players who focussed their character build on effective healing to be made ineffective by comparison.
I'd say that's not an issue. Features like the healer feat or Song of Rest are worthless? Only if you think there's no value in not spending a spell slot when the alternative is to spend a spell slot.
There are situations where this spell could and will be used to extraordinary effect. That's ok. There are still situations (many more of them in fact) where it won't work out that way, and your healers should be happy to have extra spell slots available when that time comes.
Extended Signature
That's really not what I'm saying at all. Boiled down to bullet points my stance is essentially this:
Based on my personal experience, and many of the comments made in this thread, can we at least agree that when used in combat the spell is fine as it is? There are lots of ways to close it down, it requires character agency (which most healing does not) and (and here's the part I REALLY like), the bad guys can do it too.
My players nearly shit themselves when they realized that all of the mooks they were fighting (trying to go one on one) were ducking out, getting healed in the other room, then coming back!
So it's the out-of-combat part that people seem to have issue with. Okay, let's focus on that. To me, the biggest issue with the spell is that it breaks many of the normal conventions for Healing magic. Most Healing spells are either cast and done for a specific amount or (in the case of Regenerate) they heal 1 HP per turn or 10 per minute. Now in a resting situation Regenerate can heal a single target up but it's 7th level and only works on ONE target.
So if we unpack Healing Spirit, what exactly is the problem with it out of combat? Is it that it heals so much, that it heals EVERYONE so much or that it's 2nd level? IMHO it's the last one. At 2nd level, in order to keep the spell more in line with other 2nd level Healing spells, it should heal the party for 2 HP per minute for ten minutes or 20 HP per character. This perfectly balances Prayer of Healing (2d8 + Wis modifier, 30' radius, 10 minutes to cast) or a whole bunch of Cure spells cast at 2nd level.
It’s a legitimate spell. Why would you punish the party for doing something legitimate, especially when the prepared in advance so as to not be surprised by an encounter?
You also have to consider how D&D is balanced. Per Crawford: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/935995896637964290
We actually balance the game assuming player characters are at full health. We have to do that, since an encounter could happen at any point. An extra powerful healing spell doesn't unbalance the game. But it can disrupt what feels right to a group. That's what concerns us.
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We run it by saying it only works on one person per round, so whoever is the first target of a round gets the healing. Makes the spell very useful, but removes the crazy part.
Would you apply that same logic to multiple round duration Area damage spell, as for example wall of fire? Same variable effect - either really effective or rubbish based on number of targets hit and number of rounds it does so.
couldn't you just make every time the group cast it become an encounter scenario ie. roll initiative and get 10 turns of action = 1min, each person would get a chance to enter into the "encounter" with the spirit? it would basically be 10d6 of healing but also the group can't really choose because there's no real delay action...
that way it works the same mechanically no matter what
Jon the argument is that if you had 1000(for example) people, then all could benefit each round from the healing spirit. (providing movement scores allowed) This was stated by its opponents as way too much as its more than the highest healing spell of ninth level. Which is true.
It works as dragons breath, which deals 3d6 to everyone in its radius each round, dealing a possible maximum (with a battlegrid) 180d6 damage with a 2nd level spell - clearly more than some ninth level damage dealing spells. Which is true.
The reasonable argument is that healing spirit disrupts a game because it heals the entire party 'guaranteed' out of combat. Where as in combat its rather tricky to have it benefit everyone / not lose concentration / provoke more Attacks going to heal than is worth what you could recover. This is true
The healer feat using Bandage-Fu also heals a lot, oddly more than many healing spells of the same level will manage if the entire party is bandaged . This is mostly ignored but also true.
Some appear to be disheartened that the cleric is no longer the clear front runner for best healer because of this one spell. This is unreasonable but also true.
If you are running a game and healing spirit is causing you problems then you may need to work with the caster to avoid it continuing to cause you problems. Good advice for any issues and also true!
If you think any of this is a problem for your game, wait until you get a load of the ring(s) of shared suffering in wayfinders guide to eberron (if it remains as is) placed on the little finger of a vegepygmy it will provide unlimited healing of two per round to you whilst the vegepygmy remains happily in a garden somewhere else on the planet. This is hilarious but also true.
ah i get it now. yeah that makes sense. it seems like a cool, tactical spell in combat but out of combat yes, broken.
Maybe there's an easy way to theme it as mostly a battle spell ie. when in combat the spirit gains strength and the effect lasts longer. when cast out of combat it lasts only 15 seconds or so because the spirit realizes you're not in danger.
Yeah the whole thing with this spell is how ridiculously good it is out of combat. I think it was initially designed the way that it was to sort of mirror HoT (Heal over time) mechanics from MMOs; drop the spirit on the square the main tank is on with the expectation that they probably won't be moving, but with the ability to move it to a different "target" as needed. It's this loop that makes the spell controversial. I'd suggest just making the spell be targeted on a single creature at any time, bonus action to move it to another creature. Spell otherwise functions exactly the same as normal. Still a super amazing 2nd level spell that outperforms every other form of healing at equivalent level.
Alternatively, just make it function like an actual summoned spirit (or like spiritual weapon, to a degree). Make the spirit actually occupy a square, give it an AC & HP score, and let it heal a target once per round (no action needed).
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Broken depends on whether you need your party to remain knackered after a combat ends. Even if they heal up, they are still down on spells and other resources. So why do you need them to remain injured?
And this is a common view. Do note it doesnt touch on this being the same mechanic as damage per round spells. This is hopefully because the majority of people havent had tunnels or rooms turned into ovens with wall of fire whilst the party bars the exit and sits down to wait out the xp farm, with no chance of any further combat or damage taken. If however it is the potential recovery out of combat that is the concern the observer has to account for why other multi heal options arent equally considered problems - Bandage Fu being a prime contender, prayer of healing if its simply the out of combat aspect is also in trouble. Does healing spirit heal more? Yes, potentially dependant on party size.
Why and where is the line to be drawn for when a spell is a problem? When running a game, its a rare one indeed that has three or more non casters and one healer. In that scenario the melee will find that the lack of reliance of long rest resources means that one of the only limits to their ability to continue is healing. If it is a druid/bard* healer using healing spirit then the group may well be able to continue on further than say, if the healer was a cleric. This will result in the non casters having a blast. And where is the problem in that? Players use abilities and plans to overcome obstacles. Healing being poured into a party like alchohol on a stag night suggests something went wrong. Would you want an adventure to end before its time due to a healer having to use all their spells on healing, never getting to use anything else just to recover? I hope not. Its no fun for them if they dont get to try out their arsenal.
Maybe you do. In my nightmares I dont see healing spirit. I do hear the seemingly innocent 'I send my invisible familiar into the caves scouting through his eyes' which started a mapping of a cave with no secondary exit. Two stoneshapes and small access slot in a blocked exit later for a party taking turns with a decanter of endless water to flood the place and drown a dungeon? Yeah that is where you learn as DM - Having no secondary exit / run off is a problem.
Really glad you mentioned Prayer of Healing since that's the other extreme of healing spell (im)balance.
Healing Spirit:
Prayer of Healing:
If we assume a party size of 4, then the issue of maximum targets is moot. Out of combat healing is what we're looking at:
Healing spirit can supply the entire party with up to 40d6 (10d6 per person) for an average of 30HP per person (120HP to party). Takes a maximum of 1 minute to do this.
Prayer of Healing can supply the party with up to 8d8 + (4 * mod). If we assume a spellcasting modifier of +4, then PoH can supply an average of 12HP per person (48HP to party). This takes a minimum of 10 minutes to do. WHAT?!?
Healing spirit is insanely more effective at healing out of combat than the one spell that is explicitly designed to be the "out of combat healing spell"
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
And again we return to- why does it matter how effective out of combat healing is? Your party out of combat can rest and recover by spell potion bandage or rest, the difference is how long it takes - what is the issue with the timescale that damages the adventure? The argument that it heals more than prayer of healing means that druids heal more than clerics, is what? Ignoring the fact that before it existed prayer of healing was a class specific spell which made clerics sought out for out of combat recovery, and when druids received a spell that facilitated this out of combat healing became a problem. Sig, whats the threshhold for your adventures at which healing (and continuing on with an adventure) becomes a problem, and importantly why? You will likely find it isnt when you play it out.
Sig, your conclusion is that HS is better than PoH, whats really happened is now druids are currently capable of more restoration than clerics. Times changed.
The problem isn't that players starting with full healing breaks the game. It's that druids and rangers can outheal Life Clerics - you know, the subclass designed entirely around being the best healer - and that's a pretty feelbad thing for the Life Cleric player. And this wasn't some deliberate push to make druids the best healer; it was a QA miss on the D&D team's part.The spell wasn't intended to be anywhere as good as it is.