First: Every thing from "I'm Offended... through... $1 apeice" we agree with.
second: Oh, they shouldn't hijack your hobby. I guess you feel they just don't belong here if they are offended by the status quo. or do I misunderstand
Third: None of this is more important than the stuff we agree about in the first, not even close to it. Doesn't make it unimportant.
Fourth: yeah, that pedigree you just gave was "I'm white, descended from white, and white, but because one of the people I trace ancestory back through is also the root word for the english word 'slave' I understand what people of color go through.
Fifth: Snowflake? careful, sounding a bit like Fox-news yourself.
First, good.
Second, you misunderstood. It’s not “my” hobby. And if they don’t like the lore, they are free to write their own. They do not have the right to sensor the artistic vision of the people who wrote the story just because they don’t like it. “If you don’t like what the DJ is playing, you have the right to change the station.”
Third, it is unimportant. It’s a work of fiction.
Fourth, yes, I am Caucasian. What of it? I am also openly bisexual, and have been verbally, emotionally, and physically assaulted because of it. I am also Catholic, people used to feed us to lions for sport. My Grandmother spent years being tortured in a Nazi concentration camp for it. Should I go on listing all of the persecuted demographics I belong to?
Fifth, if the biggest thing you have to worry about is a body of fiction, then yes, ❄️
I’m offended that you think you have the right to stomp on an artists control over their work. The minute you start censoring art, the next step is book burning and then you’re no better than the Nazis who tortured my grandmother.
@Iamsposta: No the biggest thing they have to worry about are things you apparently can't imagine because it isn't a white person problem. No this is not important in the grand scheme, but that's doesn't mean it can't be improved. I'm sorry if them wanting to feel more welcomed in a hobby makes you feel less welcome. Why is the idea of changing those parts of the lore offend you so much. Don't give me artistic integrity. Why do you need racial (Species whatever) bonuses written in? Why does removing that offend you?
@Golaryan: Yes, because subtext is not a thing that exists and has been used to hurt people using fiction for centuries. And we are only talking about those initial bonuses, the +1 and +2 that are given by race right now. No one is telling you how to assign your ability scores or ASI's. Get real.
Why is it so offensive to update things, to be less offensive and exclusionary? Why does that change scare you?
I’m offended that you think you have the right to stomp on an artists control over their work. The minute you start censoring art, the next step is book burning and then you’re no better than the Nazis who tortured my grandmother.
FIGHT CENSORSHIP!!!
What the hell, pulling the Godwin cord pretty hard there. Hoping a company will be less offensive is now like being a nazi?
@Iamsposta: No the biggest thing they have to worry about are things you apparently can't imagine because it isn't a white person problem. No this is not important in the grand scheme, but that's doesn't mean it can't be improved. I'm sorry if them wanting to feel more welcomed in a hobby makes you feel less welcome. Why is the idea of changing those parts of the lore offend you so much. Don't give me artistic integrity. Why do you need racial (Species whatever) bonuses written in? Why does removing that offend you?
@Golaryan: Yes, because subtext is not a thing that exists and has been used to hurt people using fiction for centuries. And we are only talking about those initial bonuses, the +1 and +2 that are given by race right now. No one is telling you how to assign your ability scores or ASI's. Get real.
Why is it so offensive to update things, to be less offensive and exclusionary? Why does that change scare you?
Subtext is implied by the writer. What you are doing is projecting.
It doesn’t offend me. What offends me is people insisting that the world bend over backwards to prevent them from being offended. Get the **** over it. I have spent the last 40 years being offended by the world at large on a daily basis. Now all of a sudden being offensive is the worst thing in the world because of people who have never actually experienced anything worse than being offended. What offends me is people actively looking for things as ridiculous as the stats an Elf gets, or that Orcs are seen as “savages.” If D and ******* D offends you so much, play something that offends you less.
I hate that the majority modern rap music has something as offensive as “The N Word” repeated every three words. I’m not about to tell those musicians that they have to change their lyrics because they offend me. I just simply will not purchase their albums. I’ll stick to Run DMC and Salt and Pepper for my rap, hold the N bomb thank you.
I’m offended that state legislatures all over the country are making abortions illegal. The people in those states are offended that my state has not. If nobody is allowed to ever offend anyone else, who wins that argument? Hmm...???
If everybody all of a sudden is not allowed to think or say or do something because it might offend someone else, then the whole world will come to a massive conflict of impasses. Sooner or later, the world is just gonna have to learn to live with being offended from time to time.
I LOVE that you have the right to say/do/think things that offend me. That’s how we know that the system is working.
I’m offended that you think you have the right to stomp on an artists control over their work. The minute you start censoring art, the next step is book burning and then you’re no better than the Nazis who tortured my grandmother.
FIGHT CENSORSHIP!!!
What the hell, pulling the Godwin cord pretty hard there. Hoping a company will be less offensive is now like being a nazi?
Are you trolling or just lost all perspective?
No. I simply recognize that the freedom of speech (including art) is the single most important tool we have to make sure that nobody ever has their voice silenced again. The minute we tell people what not to say, is the minute everything falls apart.
@Iamsposta: The persecuted demographic you belong to is the LGBTQIA+, and even there bisexuals are often marginalized. I am so sorry for the way y'all are treated. No sarcasm, it's a shame.
What your ancestors went through, does not equate to what YOU go through. Racism is not gone, it is still very much a thing that POC's deal with daily
and @Golaryn, as I said when i started this conversation (Argument? Rant? fight?) I'm not trying to accuse anyone of intentional racism. But the fact that these things can so easily be read in the work is problematic. I'm not the first person to bring it up. DNDBeyond's chief writer has gone over possible options in the past. I am just calling out an issue that loads of people have commented on.
Wow, everyone seems to have missed the point of what i was saying about racial/species bonuses and why so many people want to move away from them, why wizards even put out a guide for how to tie the bonuses to class instead.
this actiually sounds really interesting, what UA is that?
You're right. There is nothing problematic with things like the Drow. An entire race (RACE) of dark skinned people who are definitely evil, because they worship the wrong god. They are also one of the few cannonically matriarchal races. I'm sure the fact that they are all evil doesn't sound like a commentary at all.
Or Orcs, who are capable of interbreeding with humans, but are all just savages and brutes who are stupid, and will kill you immediately. yeah, that doesn't sound like common rhetoric at all.
I know no one in your circle talks about this, but maybe consider that is because your circle is small. I have heard people who are offended by this, and feel targeted by this. I'm sorry if I'm more empathetic than others.
Unless these people you speak of are Orcs, then how could they feel targeted. News flash, Orcs are not real. They are not a representation of anything other than a fictional Neanderthal like species that pride themselves in the their physical might.
I am offended by the Idea that a Wizard MUST put their stat bonus into Int! What, I can't choose to play a wizard that works out? Are all educated people weak and physically incapable of becoming strong?
Or how about this, so Fighters can't be smart so they MUST put there stat bonus in Strength?! That is offensive! Why can't Fighters be smart? If they swing a sword does that make them incapable of reading a book?
THE WHOLE GIMMIC ARROUND FIGHTERS IS THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SMART, COMBATANTS WHO WELL AND TRULY STUDY THE ART OF COMBAT, WHY IS AN 18 INT FIGHTER NO MORE EFFECTIVE ON THE BATTLEFIELD THAN AN 6 INT FIGHTER!
anyways yes the default flavour of the races in dnd can soetimes be a little bit weird, but you know what? that can easily be changed, want the drow to be less overtly evil and also want them to worship bees instead of spiders? shure as heck can you go for that! want to do do away with races entirely becuase the concept gets a little iffy? shure thing, go ahead. Ignore the lore however much you want and start treating the diffrent races as just a set of arbitrary mechanics and you are good to go, an gnome wizard might just be ether an very young person or a very short person who is more intelegent than normal, an orc barbarian might just be a stronger human, an drow sorcerer just an charismatic person more magically gifted than others, or similarly an tiefling might be an magically gifted person but nothing more, all the races are just some aspect of humanity given a bit more form. Nobody is forcing you to use the races in the way the designers intended, in fact some of the point is that the lore is a little vague so you can change or modify it to suit your interests. And of course, the concept races might be considered more of a problem of fantasy in general, while a little on the offensive side they can make for more interesting characters. Not all orcs are savage brutes, having an orc wizard who rebells against the savagery of his own kind and seeks peace can make them feel extra special, as can one who partially rejects their orcish heritage but still has an tendency towards evocation, an drow does not have to be evil (in fact i am pretty shure by now 80 - 97% of drow players are all good aligned paragons who protect the weak). Play and use races however you so choose, there is a lot of utillity in having diffrent races but in more grounded worlds or low magic settings not having them can probably be fine.
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
So this seems to stem from a mismatch between “implication” and “inference.” What you are suggesting is that the entire system be changed to cater to the “inferences” of a small percentage of the 7,000,000,000+ people on the planet. That is censorship.
OOF. Just woke up this morning, came on this thread. Read it. Apparently D&D is racist now? I mean, I heard about that asia-themed product that offended some people, but this takes it to another level.
Racial Ability Scores make sense because Nature and Nurture are equal in importance in real life and fantasy worlds. Who raised you can determine how you turn out, but a lot of who you are is also written in your DNA. We are designed to be disgusted by insects, it isn't something we can choose, it is just how we are. We are designed to walk on 2 legs, and now you are arguing what class you have should determine that? Nah. I'm not going for that. Nurture and Training through life is important, but the fact that one thing is important doesn't make the other void. Neanderthals had stronger muscles than us Homo Sapiens Sapiens, it is just how their DNA makes them. Why should Orcs not get a +2 to Strength +1 Constitution? Because you want to be an Orc Wizard? Okay, be an Orc Wizard, or Kobold Barbarian, but there are certain people who are inherently born at being better at specific things than others. I should know. I have autism. It doesn't make me any less smart than anyone else, but it does make me less coordinated, less "dexterous", and less "charismatic". I was born this way.
News Flash: You can't choose how you're born. I didn't choose to be born with autism into a screwed up family, but you play with the cards you're dealt.
Racial Ability Score bonuses aren't meant to offend anyone, they're meant to be a view on reality that is CORRECT!
Not sure if there's much more to say about UA, unless someone has playtested the new spells and tattoos. Then I'd be interested in how those performed.
I think that's information for the Spells and Tattoos thread, but what I meant was upcoming UA ideas that don't start racial/political/snowflake debates on this thread.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I'd like more crafting rules, but that's never happening.
An alchemical book with different monster/plant substances that can be used as drugs or potions would be great, like Rising from the Last War and Explorer's Guide to Wildemount both had drugs that could be bought and the affects that they have on the user. Explorer's Guide to Wildemount also has plants that can cure petrification, and stuff like that. I'd like to see more rules like that
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Can we do that, changing something to fit the whims of a "Small percentage of the... yadda yadda yadda". That would be censorship... or you know, listening to your fanbase and market. Nope, no, that's not it, shut down UA, changing what is, is censorship, you know, despite the fact that it isn't government mandated. Sorry, a little salty there.
Oh, and to answer the question that was asked of me, it wasn't a UA it was here on DNDBeyond, one of their writers did an article on the idea.
Can we do that, changing something to fit the whims of a "Small percentage of the... yadda yadda yadda". That would be censorship... or you know, listening to your fanbase and market. Nope, no, that's not it, shut down UA, changing what is, is censorship, you know, despite the fact that it isn't government mandated. Sorry, a little salty there.
Oh, and to answer the question that was asked of me, it wasn't a UA it was here on DNDBeyond, one of their writers did an article on the idea.
Sorry, I'm not understanding what you're commenting on.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
So this seems to stem from a mismatch between “implication” and “inference.” What you are suggesting is that the entire system be changed to cater to the “inferences” of a small percentage of the 7,000,000,000+ people on the planet. That is censorship.
One not change the entire system, a small part.
two: you really want to say minorities don't deserve to be heard in this hobby? Really?
Three: it's not censorship.
Four, I probably should have stopped a while back with: Okay, boomer.
So this seems to stem from a mismatch between “implication” and “inference.” What you are suggesting is that the entire system be changed to cater to the “inferences” of a small percentage of the 7,000,000,000+ people on the planet. That is censorship.
One not change the entire system, a small part.
two: you really want to say minorities don't deserve to be heard in this hobby? Really?
Three: it's not censorship.
Four, I probably should have stopped a while back with: Okay, boomer.
STOP! This is not the place for personal attacks. I politely asked for a change in topic, stop coming back to this!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Can we do that, changing something to fit the whims of a "Small percentage of the... yadda yadda yadda". That would be censorship... or you know, listening to your fanbase and market. Nope, no, that's not it, shut down UA, changing what is, is censorship, you know, despite the fact that it isn't government mandated. Sorry, a little salty there.
Oh, and to answer the question that was asked of me, it wasn't a UA it was here on DNDBeyond, one of their writers did an article on the idea.
Sorry, I'm not understanding what you're commenting on.
They’re commenting on my last post, and the post where someone asked for a link to the UA about getting them is of Racial bonuses in D&D. Zoken originally stated that a WotC was discussing it, but it wasn’t WotC, it was DDB.
Now, different topic, please. Take this to PM if you want to debate about this. I'm not against having this discussion, but this isn't the place for it.
And to be 100% clear, I never said that minorities shouldn’t be heard under any circumstance. Or did you miss that the entire basis for my argument is freedom of speech/expression?!? I never said that you don’t have the right to be offended. I’m simply defending my right to disagree with your inference that the concept of “Orcs” is implicitly racist. Are you gonna sue Tolkien’s estate and force them to edit TLotR?!?
First, good.
Second, you misunderstood. It’s not “my” hobby. And if they don’t like the lore, they are free to write their own. They do not have the right to sensor the artistic vision of the people who wrote the story just because they don’t like it. “If you don’t like what the DJ is playing, you have the right to change the station.”
Third, it is unimportant. It’s a work of fiction.
Fourth, yes, I am Caucasian. What of it? I am also openly bisexual, and have been verbally, emotionally, and physically assaulted because of it. I am also Catholic, people used to feed us to lions for sport. My Grandmother spent years being tortured in a Nazi concentration camp for it. Should I go on listing all of the persecuted demographics I belong to?
Fifth, if the biggest thing you have to worry about is a body of fiction, then yes, ❄️
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I’m offended that you think you have the right to stomp on an artists control over their work. The minute you start censoring art, the next step is book burning and then you’re no better than the Nazis who tortured my grandmother.
FIGHT CENSORSHIP!!!
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
@Iamsposta: No the biggest thing they have to worry about are things you apparently can't imagine because it isn't a white person problem. No this is not important in the grand scheme, but that's doesn't mean it can't be improved. I'm sorry if them wanting to feel more welcomed in a hobby makes you feel less welcome. Why is the idea of changing those parts of the lore offend you so much. Don't give me artistic integrity. Why do you need racial (Species whatever) bonuses written in? Why does removing that offend you?
@Golaryan: Yes, because subtext is not a thing that exists and has been used to hurt people using fiction for centuries. And we are only talking about those initial bonuses, the +1 and +2 that are given by race right now. No one is telling you how to assign your ability scores or ASI's. Get real.
Why is it so offensive to update things, to be less offensive and exclusionary? Why does that change scare you?
What the hell, pulling the Godwin cord pretty hard there. Hoping a company will be less offensive is now like being a nazi?
Are you trolling or just lost all perspective?
Subtext is implied by the writer. What you are doing is projecting.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
It doesn’t offend me. What offends me is people insisting that the world bend over backwards to prevent them from being offended. Get the **** over it. I have spent the last 40 years being offended by the world at large on a daily basis. Now all of a sudden being offensive is the worst thing in the world because of people who have never actually experienced anything worse than being offended. What offends me is people actively looking for things as ridiculous as the stats an Elf gets, or that Orcs are seen as “savages.” If D and ******* D offends you so much, play something that offends you less.
I hate that the majority modern rap music has something as offensive as “The N Word” repeated every three words. I’m not about to tell those musicians that they have to change their lyrics because they offend me. I just simply will not purchase their albums. I’ll stick to Run DMC and Salt and Pepper for my rap, hold the N bomb thank you.
I’m offended that state legislatures all over the country are making abortions illegal. The people in those states are offended that my state has not. If nobody is allowed to ever offend anyone else, who wins that argument? Hmm...???
If everybody all of a sudden is not allowed to think or say or do something because it might offend someone else, then the whole world will come to a massive conflict of impasses. Sooner or later, the world is just gonna have to learn to live with being offended from time to time.
I LOVE that you have the right to say/do/think things that offend me. That’s how we know that the system is working.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
No. I simply recognize that the freedom of speech (including art) is the single most important tool we have to make sure that nobody ever has their voice silenced again. The minute we tell people what not to say, is the minute everything falls apart.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
@Iamsposta: The persecuted demographic you belong to is the LGBTQIA+, and even there bisexuals are often marginalized. I am so sorry for the way y'all are treated. No sarcasm, it's a shame.
What your ancestors went through, does not equate to what YOU go through. Racism is not gone, it is still very much a thing that POC's deal with daily
and @Golaryn, as I said when i started this conversation (Argument? Rant? fight?) I'm not trying to accuse anyone of intentional racism. But the fact that these things can so easily be read in the work is problematic. I'm not the first person to bring it up. DNDBeyond's chief writer has gone over possible options in the past. I am just calling out an issue that loads of people have commented on.
No one talked about Censorship.
ladies and gentlemen i think this thread has gotten a little political, two breif things to say before i dive in
this actiually sounds really interesting, what UA is that?
THE WHOLE GIMMIC ARROUND FIGHTERS IS THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SMART, COMBATANTS WHO WELL AND TRULY STUDY THE ART OF COMBAT, WHY IS AN 18 INT FIGHTER NO MORE EFFECTIVE ON THE BATTLEFIELD THAN AN 6 INT FIGHTER!
anyways yes the default flavour of the races in dnd can soetimes be a little bit weird, but you know what? that can easily be changed, want the drow to be less overtly evil and also want them to worship bees instead of spiders? shure as heck can you go for that! want to do do away with races entirely becuase the concept gets a little iffy? shure thing, go ahead. Ignore the lore however much you want and start treating the diffrent races as just a set of arbitrary mechanics and you are good to go, an gnome wizard might just be ether an very young person or a very short person who is more intelegent than normal, an orc barbarian might just be a stronger human, an drow sorcerer just an charismatic person more magically gifted than others, or similarly an tiefling might be an magically gifted person but nothing more, all the races are just some aspect of humanity given a bit more form. Nobody is forcing you to use the races in the way the designers intended, in fact some of the point is that the lore is a little vague so you can change or modify it to suit your interests. And of course, the concept races might be considered more of a problem of fantasy in general, while a little on the offensive side they can make for more interesting characters. Not all orcs are savage brutes, having an orc wizard who rebells against the savagery of his own kind and seeks peace can make them feel extra special, as can one who partially rejects their orcish heritage but still has an tendency towards evocation, an drow does not have to be evil (in fact i am pretty shure by now 80 - 97% of drow players are all good aligned paragons who protect the weak). Play and use races however you so choose, there is a lot of utillity in having diffrent races but in more grounded worlds or low magic settings not having them can probably be fine.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
So this seems to stem from a mismatch between “implication” and “inference.” What you are suggesting is that the entire system be changed to cater to the “inferences” of a small percentage of the 7,000,000,000+ people on the planet. That is censorship.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
OOF. Just woke up this morning, came on this thread. Read it. Apparently D&D is racist now? I mean, I heard about that asia-themed product that offended some people, but this takes it to another level.
Racial Ability Scores make sense because Nature and Nurture are equal in importance in real life and fantasy worlds. Who raised you can determine how you turn out, but a lot of who you are is also written in your DNA. We are designed to be disgusted by insects, it isn't something we can choose, it is just how we are. We are designed to walk on 2 legs, and now you are arguing what class you have should determine that? Nah. I'm not going for that. Nurture and Training through life is important, but the fact that one thing is important doesn't make the other void. Neanderthals had stronger muscles than us Homo Sapiens Sapiens, it is just how their DNA makes them. Why should Orcs not get a +2 to Strength +1 Constitution? Because you want to be an Orc Wizard? Okay, be an Orc Wizard, or Kobold Barbarian, but there are certain people who are inherently born at being better at specific things than others. I should know. I have autism. It doesn't make me any less smart than anyone else, but it does make me less coordinated, less "dexterous", and less "charismatic". I was born this way.
News Flash: You can't choose how you're born. I didn't choose to be born with autism into a screwed up family, but you play with the cards you're dealt.
Racial Ability Score bonuses aren't meant to offend anyone, they're meant to be a view on reality that is CORRECT!
Now, back to UA, please.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I think that's information for the Spells and Tattoos thread, but what I meant was upcoming UA ideas that don't start racial/political/snowflake debates on this thread.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'd like more crafting rules, but that's never happening.
An alchemical book with different monster/plant substances that can be used as drugs or potions would be great, like Rising from the Last War and Explorer's Guide to Wildemount both had drugs that could be bought and the affects that they have on the user. Explorer's Guide to Wildemount also has plants that can cure petrification, and stuff like that. I'd like to see more rules like that
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Can we do that, changing something to fit the whims of a "Small percentage of the... yadda yadda yadda". That would be censorship... or you know, listening to your fanbase and market. Nope, no, that's not it, shut down UA, changing what is, is censorship, you know, despite the fact that it isn't government mandated. Sorry, a little salty there.
Oh, and to answer the question that was asked of me, it wasn't a UA it was here on DNDBeyond, one of their writers did an article on the idea.
Sorry, I'm not understanding what you're commenting on.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
One not change the entire system, a small part.
two: you really want to say minorities don't deserve to be heard in this hobby? Really?
Three: it's not censorship.
Four, I probably should have stopped a while back with: Okay, boomer.
STOP! This is not the place for personal attacks. I politely asked for a change in topic, stop coming back to this!
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
They’re commenting on my last post, and the post where someone asked for a link to the UA about getting them is of Racial bonuses in D&D. Zoken originally stated that a WotC was discussing it, but it wasn’t WotC, it was DDB.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Now, different topic, please. Take this to PM if you want to debate about this. I'm not against having this discussion, but this isn't the place for it.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
My parents are boomers, I was born in ‘81.
And to be 100% clear, I never said that minorities shouldn’t be heard under any circumstance. Or did you miss that the entire basis for my argument is freedom of speech/expression?!? I never said that you don’t have the right to be offended. I’m simply defending my right to disagree with your inference that the concept of “Orcs” is implicitly racist. Are you gonna sue Tolkien’s estate and force them to edit TLotR?!?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting