Am I missing something? All races that were updated in MMotM now universally have at least 30 move, lost things like sunlight sensitivity, etc. But the OG players handbook races did not get the same updates. Gnomes, halflings and dwarves still have 25 move, deep gnomes and duergar have 30. Kobold and duergar lost sunlight sensitivity, but drow elf did not. Players handbook races are still locked to set stat bonuses. MmotM get to use bonuses however they want.
Has this been addressed somewhere? Or is this legitimately a nerf for the PHB races?
The races in MotM are being treated as their own unique races, not as updates. There are two versions of the races on Dndbeyond so you may be looking at the PHB version and not the MotM version.
Did you even read my post? Call it an update or not, the point is the MMotM across the board got changed so they lost slow movement and sunlight sensitivity and gained the ability to use bonus stats in any way. PHB races are still crippled by slow move, sunlight sensitivity and locked stat bonuses.
Did you read mine? They didn't change any of the old races, they (WOTC and DnDbeyond) are treating the races in MotM as unique races. Given that, why would they change any of the old races, especially ones that didn't get a new version in MotM?
When thing C comes out (debatably) “better” that’s not a “nerf” to thing A. Thing A stayed exactly the same as it always was, nothing got nerfed at all. Thing C is just (debatably) better. (I say debatably because I prefer the PHB and Legacy races, I feel they have much more character than the new ones. The new ones all seem kinda… bland/boring/samesame to me now. In my opinion, the PHB & Legacy races are superior because of their differences.)
The species that were updated/retuned in M3 were variously found in sources outside the Player's Handbook. M3's job, in significant part, was collecting all these incidental critters together in a single convenient* book.
The PHB species did not get mucked with because they cannot be mucked with. Wizards needs to release a new version of the Player's Handbook in order to fix PHB species, since the Player's Handbook trumps every other source in 5e including the DMG. We're getting a new Player's Handbook in 2014 which will almost certainly include Tasha's Cauldron style rebakes of the PHB species, but until then consider the game to be in a state of very slow, piece by piece reboot. Like a computer program that's taking five years to update to the latest software version.
I did read yours and from both your posts it's painfully clear you don't understand what I am saying. Grey dwarf/duergar was in the PHB. It got a "new" race that increased its move speed and lost it's sunlight sensitivity. The other dwarves (as well as other small races) in the PHB are still stuck at 25 speed. Drow elf did not lose sunlight sensitivity but duergar did not. Why was the subrace grey dwarf from PHB given a new race with no disablitoes when the subrace drow elf AlSO from PHB not accorded the same treatment? Why?!?! It makes no sense that some sub races would become new races and lose those disabilities while the rest of the PHB races did not get the same.
I did read yours and from both your posts it's painfully clear you don't understand what I am saying. Grey dwarf/duergar was in the PHB. It got a "new" race that increased its move speed and lost it's sunlight sensitivity. The other dwarves (as well as other small races) in the PHB are still stuck at 25 speed. Drow elf did not lose sunlight sensitivity but duergar did not. Why was the subrace grey dwarf from PHB given a new race with no disablitoes when the subrace drow elf AlSO from PHB not accorded the same treatment? Why?!?! It makes no sense that some sub races would become new races and lose those disabilities while the rest of the PHB races did not get the same.
The Duergar were not in the PHB, only the Mountain and Hill Dwarves were. The legacy Gray Dwarves were in Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes.
MotM did not revisit any PHB races, to my recall. Duergar weren't in PHB and Drow are not in MotM (as a playable race, I mean). The reason why PHB races weren't updated in MotM (despite the almost certainly fact that WotC are itching to) is because MotM was an update to VGtM and MToF. I daresay in 2024 when the new PHB comes out, they will revisit those races and get rid of Sunlight Sensitivity. I believe they'll also revise the roster a little bit, but that's my conjecture. You can bet that Hill and Mountain Dwarves will become their own race rather than subtracts, following the pattern MotM. I was disappointed that the Kobolds were so significantly changed, their Sunlight Sensitivity really worked well with their abilities. Drow seriously need to lose it, though. It really doesn't achieve what it intends to.
As for nerfing, they can be nerfed that way. How go a speciea (or class, etc) is, is only meaningful in the context of others. If everyone apart from Dragonborn suddenly got Blindsight, you could say that they were effectively nerfed - because they have slipped significantly behind in comparison to everyone else.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
People talk about edition 5.5 as if it will be a hard reset with a clear Before and After to it. I think it's much more likely that it's already being phased in, released in increments that started with Tasha's. Things will be patched and replaced here and there and then the new PHB will release in 2024 to tie it all together and officially make it the new way forward.
Yes, that means PHB races are just going to be waiting around for a while to catch up. That's a legitimate complaint. But it's not like a deliberate slight or oversight, it's just a consequence of how they decided to roll out their product.
The set ability scores in PHB races is easily fixed. There is an optional rule in Tasha's that allows you to swap ability scores, though you cannot switch from a +2 and a +1 to three +1s.
I admit more races in MotM got made more powerful than less (Yuan ti are an example of the later), which mean PHB got relatively (but not absolutely) less powerful. What is for debate is whether this is p,aying catch up or making them more powerful tan PHB classes. Getting a feat at level 1 is extremely powerful and flexible, vhuman is probably the optimizer's favorite race. Half elf and mountain dwarf get a total of 4 ASI which can also be good for many builds.
I am not a fan of the change, I think their should 9nly be one goblin race and having a legacy and an updated is confusing. I also think source books should either be player focused or dm focussed if as a player I get MotM so I can choose the new racial features for my PCs I also get the stat blocks of the monsters my DM might put against me. (My choice is to metagame or not read the majority of the book. This is an issued that is at least as old as Volos however.
We're getting a new Player's Handbook in 2014 which will almost certainly include Tasha's Cauldron style rebakes of the PHB species
Pretty sure we aren’t getting the new book in 2014.
But jokes aside, yes, there is going to be a big update in 2024. I’m not sure that the details have been confirmed but it’s widely assumed that it will include a new players handbook, with the races updated to match the newly released M3 and Tasha’s. There is also speculation that with the move from short rest mechanics to pb times per day - PBTPD (here’s looking at you Colby) that some of the class abilities will be updated to match as well. So I’m super curious to see what they do with the Warlock.
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Am I missing something? All races that were updated in MMotM now universally have at least 30 move, lost things like sunlight sensitivity, etc. But the OG players handbook races did not get the same updates. Gnomes, halflings and dwarves still have 25 move, deep gnomes and duergar have 30. Kobold and duergar lost sunlight sensitivity, but drow elf did not. Players handbook races are still locked to set stat bonuses. MmotM get to use bonuses however they want.
Has this been addressed somewhere? Or is this legitimately a nerf for the PHB races?
The races in MotM are being treated as their own unique races, not as updates. There are two versions of the races on Dndbeyond so you may be looking at the PHB version and not the MotM version.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
Did you even read my post? Call it an update or not, the point is the MMotM across the board got changed so they lost slow movement and sunlight sensitivity and gained the ability to use bonus stats in any way. PHB races are still crippled by slow move, sunlight sensitivity and locked stat bonuses.
Did you read mine? They didn't change any of the old races, they (WOTC and DnDbeyond) are treating the races in MotM as unique races. Given that, why would they change any of the old races, especially ones that didn't get a new version in MotM?
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
When thing C comes out (debatably) “better” that’s not a “nerf” to thing A. Thing A stayed exactly the same as it always was, nothing got nerfed at all. Thing C is just (debatably) better. (I say debatably because I prefer the PHB and Legacy races, I feel they have much more character than the new ones. The new ones all seem kinda… bland/boring/samesame to me now. In my opinion, the PHB & Legacy races are superior because of their differences.)
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Content Troubleshooting
The species that were updated/retuned in M3 were variously found in sources outside the Player's Handbook. M3's job, in significant part, was collecting all these incidental critters together in a single convenient* book.
The PHB species did not get mucked with because they cannot be mucked with. Wizards needs to release a new version of the Player's Handbook in order to fix PHB species, since the Player's Handbook trumps every other source in 5e including the DMG. We're getting a new Player's Handbook in 2014 which will almost certainly include Tasha's Cauldron style rebakes of the PHB species, but until then consider the game to be in a state of very slow, piece by piece reboot. Like a computer program that's taking five years to update to the latest software version.
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I did read yours and from both your posts it's painfully clear you don't understand what I am saying. Grey dwarf/duergar was in the PHB. It got a "new" race that increased its move speed and lost it's sunlight sensitivity. The other dwarves (as well as other small races) in the PHB are still stuck at 25 speed. Drow elf did not lose sunlight sensitivity but duergar did not. Why was the subrace grey dwarf from PHB given a new race with no disablitoes when the subrace drow elf AlSO from PHB not accorded the same treatment? Why?!?! It makes no sense that some sub races would become new races and lose those disabilities while the rest of the PHB races did not get the same.
The Duergar were not in the PHB, only the Mountain and Hill Dwarves were. The legacy Gray Dwarves were in Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes.
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DDB Buyers' Guide
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MotM did not revisit any PHB races, to my recall. Duergar weren't in PHB and Drow are not in MotM (as a playable race, I mean). The reason why PHB races weren't updated in MotM (despite the almost certainly fact that WotC are itching to) is because MotM was an update to VGtM and MToF. I daresay in 2024 when the new PHB comes out, they will revisit those races and get rid of Sunlight Sensitivity. I believe they'll also revise the roster a little bit, but that's my conjecture. You can bet that Hill and Mountain Dwarves will become their own race rather than subtracts, following the pattern MotM. I was disappointed that the Kobolds were so significantly changed, their Sunlight Sensitivity really worked well with their abilities. Drow seriously need to lose it, though. It really doesn't achieve what it intends to.
As for nerfing, they can be nerfed that way. How go a speciea (or class, etc) is, is only meaningful in the context of others. If everyone apart from Dragonborn suddenly got Blindsight, you could say that they were effectively nerfed - because they have slipped significantly behind in comparison to everyone else.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
People talk about edition 5.5 as if it will be a hard reset with a clear Before and After to it. I think it's much more likely that it's already being phased in, released in increments that started with Tasha's. Things will be patched and replaced here and there and then the new PHB will release in 2024 to tie it all together and officially make it the new way forward.
Yes, that means PHB races are just going to be waiting around for a while to catch up. That's a legitimate complaint. But it's not like a deliberate slight or oversight, it's just a consequence of how they decided to roll out their product.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The set ability scores in PHB races is easily fixed. There is an optional rule in Tasha's that allows you to swap ability scores, though you cannot switch from a +2 and a +1 to three +1s.
I admit more races in MotM got made more powerful than less (Yuan ti are an example of the later), which mean PHB got relatively (but not absolutely) less powerful. What is for debate is whether this is p,aying catch up or making them more powerful tan PHB classes. Getting a feat at level 1 is extremely powerful and flexible, vhuman is probably the optimizer's favorite race. Half elf and mountain dwarf get a total of 4 ASI which can also be good for many builds.
I am not a fan of the change, I think their should 9nly be one goblin race and having a legacy and an updated is confusing. I also think source books should either be player focused or dm focussed if as a player I get MotM so I can choose the new racial features for my PCs I also get the stat blocks of the monsters my DM might put against me. (My choice is to metagame or not read the majority of the book. This is an issued that is at least as old as Volos however.
Pretty sure we aren’t getting the new book in 2014.
But jokes aside, yes, there is going to be a big update in 2024. I’m not sure that the details have been confirmed but it’s widely assumed that it will include a new players handbook, with the races updated to match the newly released M3 and Tasha’s. There is also speculation that with the move from short rest mechanics to pb times per day - PBTPD (here’s looking at you Colby) that some of the class abilities will be updated to match as well. So I’m super curious to see what they do with the Warlock.