Gothmog. Smaug has hard scales, but they're not immune to everything, and Gothmog is a Maia.
Actually they are. Tolkien has clarified that. Gothmog would have no way of physically harming Smaug, and magic doesn’t really work on dragons. He’d have no way of harming Smaug.
Smaug may not be as powerful as Sauron, Gothmog, and similar, but none of them would be able to kill him just cause of Smaug’s immunity to physical attacks, and the natural resistance of dragons to magic and charms (and Smaug is considerably more powerful then nearly all dragons, so he’d be nigh immune to most magic).
That being said, Smaug would probably not be able to kill either of them. Gothmog is immune to fire, and I don’t see biting him as being very effective. Same with Sauron. It’s have to be a tie, since neither party could kill the other.
Smaug may not be as powerful as Sauron, Gothmog, and similar, but none of them would be able to kill him just cause of Smaug’s immunity to physical attacks, and the natural resistance of dragons to magic and charms (and Smaug is considerably more powerful then nearly all dragons, so he’d be nigh immune to most magic).
That being said, Smaug would probably not be able to kill either of them. Gothmog is immune to fire, and I don’t see biting him as being very effective. Same with Sauron. It’s have to be a tie, since neither party could kill the other.
There's still the weak patch on smaug's belly, and if a lousy arrow can pierce it, the leader of the balrogs sure can...
Smaug may not be as powerful as Sauron, Gothmog, and similar, but none of them would be able to kill him just cause of Smaug’s immunity to physical attacks, and the natural resistance of dragons to magic and charms (and Smaug is considerably more powerful then nearly all dragons, so he’d be nigh immune to most magic).
That being said, Smaug would probably not be able to kill either of them. Gothmog is immune to fire, and I don’t see biting him as being very effective. Same with Sauron. It’s have to be a tie, since neither party could kill the other.
The primary source on the impervious nature of Smaug's scales is... Smaug himself, a braggart with a vested interest in promoting his own invulnerability. I would be extremely skeptical of taking that information at face value, especially since we know that dragons died in droves during the War of Wrath, indicating they are not as impervious as they might otherwise think.
Smaug may not be as powerful as Sauron, Gothmog, and similar, but none of them would be able to kill him just cause of Smaug’s immunity to physical attacks, and the natural resistance of dragons to magic and charms (and Smaug is considerably more powerful then nearly all dragons, so he’d be nigh immune to most magic).
That being said, Smaug would probably not be able to kill either of them. Gothmog is immune to fire, and I don’t see biting him as being very effective. Same with Sauron. It’s have to be a tie, since neither party could kill the other.
There's still the weak patch on smaug's belly, and if a lousy arrow can pierce it, the leader of the balrogs sure can...
That’s the problem. A small arrow could get it. Wacking it with a giant axe or whip sure isn’t.
I still think Smaug’s imperviousness is against normal damage dealt by mortals. Gothmog would have no problem overcoming it. He’s a corrupted lesser god and Smaug’s only a dragon.
I still think Smaug’s imperviousness is against normal damage dealt by mortals. Gothmog would have no problem overcoming it. He’s a corrupted lesser god and Smaug’s only a dragon.
Tolkien explicitly said any physical damage. There’s a reason Elrond or Thranduil or any of those mega powerful elf lords who are nearly as good as Gothmog didn’t just match up and bash his head in. They couldn’t have.
Also, even if we say Gothmogs axe did some damage, it wouldn’t do much. Smaug is massive. With fire being useless on Smaug (can’t debate that, Smaug is most definitely immune to fire), Gothmog would just have his axe. Which looks like a penknife next to Smaug.
To be fair, you haven’t seen the Hobbit movies, so you haven’t seen Smaug in full glory. He’s the size of 12 jumbo jets, tip to tail. He’s as big as Laketown. One tiny Balrog axe sure as hell isn’t gonna do much, since it’s to big to hit his tiny weak spot.
And btw, in Tolkien’s legendarium, dragons are mega powerful. The dragons pushed back the Valar themselves in the War of Wrath. Glaurung could have eaten Sauron for breakfast. Dragons outrank pretty much everything except the Valar, and a few more powerful Maia, in power. Gandalf was worried about Smaug for a good reason. He’s beyond the skill of most Maia, and during the Third Age nothing in Middle Earth, even Sauron with the Ring, could have killed him except by chance.
I still think Smaug’s imperviousness is against normal damage dealt by mortals. Gothmog would have no problem overcoming it. He’s a corrupted lesser god and Smaug’s only a dragon.
Tolkien explicitly said any physical damage. There’s a reason Elrond or Thranduil or any of those mega powerful elf lords who are nearly as good as Gothmog didn’t just match up and bash his head in. They couldn’t have.
Also, even if we say Gothmogs axe did some damage, it wouldn’t do much. Smaug is massive. With fire being useless on Smaug (can’t debate that, Smaug is most definitely immune to fire), Gothmog would just have his axe. Which looks like a penknife next to Smaug.
To be fair, you haven’t seen the Hobbit movies, so you haven’t seen Smaug in full glory. He’s the size of 12 jumbo jets, tip to tail. He’s as big as Laketown. One tiny Balrog axe sure as hell isn’t gonna do much, since it’s to big to hit his tiny weak spot.
1. "My armor is like tenfold shields." I think Gothmog could break that. Also, Smaug's weak underbelly is coated in treasure, because Smaug's scales are weaker there, but that's still not as powerful a defense as the rest of his scales.
2. Smaug is, in the Atlas of Middle Earth, listed as being 59 feet long. Even the movies, which are veryunreliable, made him about 427 feet long, which is less than three jumbo jets. So yeah, Smaug isn't Ancalagon.
I still think Smaug’s imperviousness is against normal damage dealt by mortals. Gothmog would have no problem overcoming it. He’s a corrupted lesser god and Smaug’s only a dragon.
Tolkien explicitly said any physical damage. There’s a reason Elrond or Thranduil or any of those mega powerful elf lords who are nearly as good as Gothmog didn’t just match up and bash his head in. They couldn’t have.
Also, even if we say Gothmogs axe did some damage, it wouldn’t do much. Smaug is massive. With fire being useless on Smaug (can’t debate that, Smaug is most definitely immune to fire), Gothmog would just have his axe. Which looks like a penknife next to Smaug.
To be fair, you haven’t seen the Hobbit movies, so you haven’t seen Smaug in full glory. He’s the size of 12 jumbo jets, tip to tail. He’s as big as Laketown. One tiny Balrog axe sure as hell isn’t gonna do much, since it’s to big to hit his tiny weak spot.
1. "My armor is like tenfold shields." I think Gothmog could break that. Also, Smaug's weak underbelly is coated in treasure, because Smaug's scales are weaker there, but that's still not as powerful a defense as the rest of his scales.
2. Smaug is, in the Atlas of Middle Earth, listed as being 59 feet long. Even the movies, which are veryunreliable, made him about 427 feet long, which is less than three jumbo jets. So yeah, Smaug isn't Ancalagon.
Sorry, nope. Smaug is at least 2000 feet long in the movies. He’s quite distinctly as long as Laketown. Even if Gothmog can break his scales, his axe is still like a penknife next to Smaug. The general consensus across pretty much every Tolkien blog out there is that Smaug just couldn’t be killed by anything in Middle Earth during the Third Age, just cause of his size.
I still think Smaug’s imperviousness is against normal damage dealt by mortals. Gothmog would have no problem overcoming it. He’s a corrupted lesser god and Smaug’s only a dragon.
Tolkien explicitly said any physical damage. There’s a reason Elrond or Thranduil or any of those mega powerful elf lords who are nearly as good as Gothmog didn’t just match up and bash his head in. They couldn’t have.
Also, even if we say Gothmogs axe did some damage, it wouldn’t do much. Smaug is massive. With fire being useless on Smaug (can’t debate that, Smaug is most definitely immune to fire), Gothmog would just have his axe. Which looks like a penknife next to Smaug.
To be fair, you haven’t seen the Hobbit movies, so you haven’t seen Smaug in full glory. He’s the size of 12 jumbo jets, tip to tail. He’s as big as Laketown. One tiny Balrog axe sure as hell isn’t gonna do much, since it’s to big to hit his tiny weak spot.
1. "My armor is like tenfold shields." I think Gothmog could break that. Also, Smaug's weak underbelly is coated in treasure, because Smaug's scales are weaker there, but that's still not as powerful a defense as the rest of his scales.
2. Smaug is, in the Atlas of Middle Earth, listed as being 59 feet long. Even the movies, which are veryunreliable, made him about 427 feet long, which is less than three jumbo jets. So yeah, Smaug isn't Ancalagon.
Sorry, nope. Smaug is at least 2000 feet long in the movies. He’s quite distinctly as long as Laketown. Even if Gothmog can break his scales, his axe is still like a penknife next to Smaug. The general consensus across pretty much every Tolkien blog out there is that Smaug just couldn’t be killed by anything in Middle Earth during the Third Age, just cause of his size.
Sources for the movies listed Smaug's length as 427 feet--and if I had to choose between the non-canon sources of Atlas of Middle Earth (which is excellent) and the Hobbit Trilogy (which is unwatchable rubbish), I know which of the two I am picking.
Fortunately, we can look at something better than both--Tolkien's own artwork. Here is a watercolor, drawn by Tolkien, of Smaug:
Hobbits are described as around half the height of men--which puts Bilbo probably around three feet in height. Using the somewhat unexacting science of a piece of string to measure Bilbo's height and then tracing the length of Smaug's scales, I counted Smaug was about 17 Bilbo-lengths--51 feet in this estimate--which gives credibility to the Atlas' 59 feet figure.
I still think Smaug’s imperviousness is against normal damage dealt by mortals. Gothmog would have no problem overcoming it. He’s a corrupted lesser god and Smaug’s only a dragon.
Tolkien explicitly said any physical damage. There’s a reason Elrond or Thranduil or any of those mega powerful elf lords who are nearly as good as Gothmog didn’t just match up and bash his head in. They couldn’t have.
Also, even if we say Gothmogs axe did some damage, it wouldn’t do much. Smaug is massive. With fire being useless on Smaug (can’t debate that, Smaug is most definitely immune to fire), Gothmog would just have his axe. Which looks like a penknife next to Smaug.
To be fair, you haven’t seen the Hobbit movies, so you haven’t seen Smaug in full glory. He’s the size of 12 jumbo jets, tip to tail. He’s as big as Laketown. One tiny Balrog axe sure as hell isn’t gonna do much, since it’s to big to hit his tiny weak spot.
1. "My armor is like tenfold shields." I think Gothmog could break that. Also, Smaug's weak underbelly is coated in treasure, because Smaug's scales are weaker there, but that's still not as powerful a defense as the rest of his scales.
2. Smaug is, in the Atlas of Middle Earth, listed as being 59 feet long. Even the movies, which are veryunreliable, made him about 427 feet long, which is less than three jumbo jets. So yeah, Smaug isn't Ancalagon.
Sorry, nope. Smaug is at least 2000 feet long in the movies. He’s quite distinctly as long as Laketown. Even if Gothmog can break his scales, his axe is still like a penknife next to Smaug. The general consensus across pretty much every Tolkien blog out there is that Smaug just couldn’t be killed by anything in Middle Earth during the Third Age, just cause of his size.
Sources for the movies listed Smaug's length as 427 feet--and if I had to choose between the non-canon sources of Atlas of Middle Earth (which is excellent) and the Hobbit Trilogy (which is unwatchable rubbish), I know which of the two I am picking.
Fortunately, we can look at something better than both--Tolkien's own artwork. Here is a watercolor, drawn by Tolkien, of Smaug:
Hobbits are described as around half the height of men--which puts Bilbo probably around three feet in height. Using the somewhat unexacting science of a piece of string to measure Bilbo's height and then tracing the length of Smaug's scales, I counted Smaug was about 17 Bilbo-lengths--51 feet in this estimate--which gives credibility to the Atlas' 59 feet figure.
Really? In the behind the scenes, Peter Jackson referred to him as at least a thousand feet long (I can’t remember the phrase perfectly, so it may have been “thousands” or just “thousand”). And just based off watching the movies, Smaug looks far, far bigger then 450 feet.
I’m going with the movies, cause in the Hobbit book Smaug is frankly nerfed and made considerably less powerful and terrifying then he should have been, cause it’s a kids book. Smaug would have been very different if he’d been in LotR or the Silmarillion, Tolkien has confirmed this. The movies are about the closest you can get to Smaug as he was intended (gigantic, mega intelligent, terrifyingly evil monster).
WEAK POINT! Gothmog is a GOD, he could easily smash the weak point in and then Smaug goes dead.
Actually, I don’t think he could. The weak point is tiny, his axe would be to big to penetrate it.
I never said he'd use his axe...
Let’s assume arguendo that Smaug’s scales are impenetrable - this is a poor assumption for reasons aforestated and evidently ignored, but let us make the assumption regardless.
1. Crushing blows bypass armour by either caving in the armor or transferring energy through the armour to the fragile organs inside the body. This is why knights - whose armour in reality was far more impregnable than movies might make it seem - had to wear gambesons, providing a layer of cushion to soften the impact of blows.
2. Smaug’s underbelly was not protected by the same “impenetrable” scales as his back. Smaug, knowing his belly to be weak, slept on his pile of gems until his stomach was encrusted with jewel armour.
For your argument to stand, Smaug would have to both have an immunity to physics and his gem armour must be as impregnable as Smaug suggests it to be. I’m not sure there is cause for either belief.
WEAK POINT! Gothmog is a GOD, he could easily smash the weak point in and then Smaug goes dead.
Actually, I don’t think he could. The weak point is tiny, his axe would be to big to penetrate it.
I never said he'd use his axe...
Let’s assume arguendo that Smaug’s scales are impenetrable - this is a poor assumption for reasons aforestated and evidently ignored, but let us make the assumption regardless.
1. Crushing blows bypass armour by either caving in the armor or transferring energy through the armour to the fragile organs inside the body. This is why knights - whose armour in reality was far more impregnable than movies might make it seem - had to wear gambesons, providing a layer of cushion to soften the impact of blows.
2. Smaug’s underbelly was not protected by the same “impenetrable” scales as his back. Smaug, knowing his belly to be weak, slept on his pile of gems until his stomach was encrusted with jewel armour.
For your argument to stand, Smaug would have to both have an immunity to physics and his gem armour must be as impregnable as Smaug suggests it to be. I’m not sure there is cause for either belief.
Ok, let’s say that Smaug isn’t immune to physical damage. The fact still remains that Gothmog’s tiny axe isn’t gonna hurt Smaug, since it looks like a penknife next to him.
Not to mention, Smaug could swallow Gothmog whole.
WEAK POINT! Gothmog is a GOD, he could easily smash the weak point in and then Smaug goes dead.
Actually, I don’t think he could. The weak point is tiny, his axe would be to big to penetrate it.
I never said he'd use his axe...
Let’s assume arguendo that Smaug’s scales are impenetrable - this is a poor assumption for reasons aforestated and evidently ignored, but let us make the assumption regardless.
1. Crushing blows bypass armour by either caving in the armor or transferring energy through the armour to the fragile organs inside the body. This is why knights - whose armour in reality was far more impregnable than movies might make it seem - had to wear gambesons, providing a layer of cushion to soften the impact of blows.
2. Smaug’s underbelly was not protected by the same “impenetrable” scales as his back. Smaug, knowing his belly to be weak, slept on his pile of gems until his stomach was encrusted with jewel armour.
For your argument to stand, Smaug would have to both have an immunity to physics and his gem armour must be as impregnable as Smaug suggests it to be. I’m not sure there is cause for either belief.
Ok, let’s say that Smaug isn’t immune to physical damage. The fact still remains that Gothmog’s tiny axe isn’t gonna hurt Smaug, since it looks like a penknife next to him.
Not to mention, Smaug could swallow Gothmog whole.
Except we already already established, with evidence from Tolkien himself, that Smaug is 50-60 feet long. Another point which was evidently glossed over.
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Actually they are. Tolkien has clarified that. Gothmog would have no way of physically harming Smaug, and magic doesn’t really work on dragons. He’d have no way of harming Smaug.
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Smaug may not be as powerful as Sauron, Gothmog, and similar, but none of them would be able to kill him just cause of Smaug’s immunity to physical attacks, and the natural resistance of dragons to magic and charms (and Smaug is considerably more powerful then nearly all dragons, so he’d be nigh immune to most magic).
That being said, Smaug would probably not be able to kill either of them. Gothmog is immune to fire, and I don’t see biting him as being very effective. Same with Sauron. It’s have to be a tie, since neither party could kill the other.
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There's still the weak patch on smaug's belly, and if a lousy arrow can pierce it, the leader of the balrogs sure can...
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The primary source on the impervious nature of Smaug's scales is... Smaug himself, a braggart with a vested interest in promoting his own invulnerability. I would be extremely skeptical of taking that information at face value, especially since we know that dragons died in droves during the War of Wrath, indicating they are not as impervious as they might otherwise think.
That’s the problem. A small arrow could get it. Wacking it with a giant axe or whip sure isn’t.
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I still think Smaug’s imperviousness is against normal damage dealt by mortals. Gothmog would have no problem overcoming it. He’s a corrupted lesser god and Smaug’s only a dragon.
Tolkien explicitly said any physical damage. There’s a reason Elrond or Thranduil or any of those mega powerful elf lords who are nearly as good as Gothmog didn’t just match up and bash his head in. They couldn’t have.
Also, even if we say Gothmogs axe did some damage, it wouldn’t do much. Smaug is massive. With fire being useless on Smaug (can’t debate that, Smaug is most definitely immune to fire), Gothmog would just have his axe. Which looks like a penknife next to Smaug.
To be fair, you haven’t seen the Hobbit movies, so you haven’t seen Smaug in full glory. He’s the size of 12 jumbo jets, tip to tail. He’s as big as Laketown. One tiny Balrog axe sure as hell isn’t gonna do much, since it’s to big to hit his tiny weak spot.
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And btw, in Tolkien’s legendarium, dragons are mega powerful. The dragons pushed back the Valar themselves in the War of Wrath. Glaurung could have eaten Sauron for breakfast. Dragons outrank pretty much everything except the Valar, and a few more powerful Maia, in power. Gandalf was worried about Smaug for a good reason. He’s beyond the skill of most Maia, and during the Third Age nothing in Middle Earth, even Sauron with the Ring, could have killed him except by chance.
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1. "My armor is like tenfold shields." I think Gothmog could break that. Also, Smaug's weak underbelly is coated in treasure, because Smaug's scales are weaker there, but that's still not as powerful a defense as the rest of his scales.
2. Smaug is, in the Atlas of Middle Earth, listed as being 59 feet long. Even the movies, which are very unreliable, made him about 427 feet long, which is less than three jumbo jets. So yeah, Smaug isn't Ancalagon.
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Sorry, nope. Smaug is at least 2000 feet long in the movies. He’s quite distinctly as long as Laketown. Even if Gothmog can break his scales, his axe is still like a penknife next to Smaug. The general consensus across pretty much every Tolkien blog out there is that Smaug just couldn’t be killed by anything in Middle Earth during the Third Age, just cause of his size.
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Sources for the movies listed Smaug's length as 427 feet--and if I had to choose between the non-canon sources of Atlas of Middle Earth (which is excellent) and the Hobbit Trilogy (which is unwatchable rubbish), I know which of the two I am picking.
Fortunately, we can look at something better than both--Tolkien's own artwork. Here is a watercolor, drawn by Tolkien, of Smaug:
Hobbits are described as around half the height of men--which puts Bilbo probably around three feet in height. Using the somewhat unexacting science of a piece of string to measure Bilbo's height and then tracing the length of Smaug's scales, I counted Smaug was about 17 Bilbo-lengths--51 feet in this estimate--which gives credibility to the Atlas' 59 feet figure.
Really? In the behind the scenes, Peter Jackson referred to him as at least a thousand feet long (I can’t remember the phrase perfectly, so it may have been “thousands” or just “thousand”). And just based off watching the movies, Smaug looks far, far bigger then 450 feet.
I’m going with the movies, cause in the Hobbit book Smaug is frankly nerfed and made considerably less powerful and terrifying then he should have been, cause it’s a kids book. Smaug would have been very different if he’d been in LotR or the Silmarillion, Tolkien has confirmed this. The movies are about the closest you can get to Smaug as he was intended (gigantic, mega intelligent, terrifyingly evil monster).
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WEAK POINT! Gothmog is a GOD, he could easily smash the weak point in and then Smaug goes dead.
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Actually, I don’t think he could. The weak point is tiny, his axe would be to big to penetrate it.
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I never said he'd use his axe...
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The whip is made of fire, which Smaug is totally immune to, so I don’t see him having many other options.
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Let’s assume arguendo that Smaug’s scales are impenetrable - this is a poor assumption for reasons aforestated and evidently ignored, but let us make the assumption regardless.
1. Crushing blows bypass armour by either caving in the armor or transferring energy through the armour to the fragile organs inside the body. This is why knights - whose armour in reality was far more impregnable than movies might make it seem - had to wear gambesons, providing a layer of cushion to soften the impact of blows.
2. Smaug’s underbelly was not protected by the same “impenetrable” scales as his back. Smaug, knowing his belly to be weak, slept on his pile of gems until his stomach was encrusted with jewel armour.
For your argument to stand, Smaug would have to both have an immunity to physics and his gem armour must be as impregnable as Smaug suggests it to be. I’m not sure there is cause for either belief.
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I am an Arachpriest, Cat Cultist, Sauce Monk, Angel of Death, and First Spinjitzu Master.
I play Thirteen the necromancer elf, Timber the tabaxi child, and more at the tavern. Hope you like yams!
Oh yeah, don't forget to be kind and loving and stuff. Not on during weekends.
Ok, let’s say that Smaug isn’t immune to physical damage. The fact still remains that Gothmog’s tiny axe isn’t gonna hurt Smaug, since it looks like a penknife next to him.
Not to mention, Smaug could swallow Gothmog whole.
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Except we already already established, with evidence from Tolkien himself, that Smaug is 50-60 feet long. Another point which was evidently glossed over.