It’s supposed to be the spell caster that can tweak spells on the fly. It’s supposed to be the character that can adapt the spells it has. The one that can amplify and twist and force. That’s what it should be. And it needs more mandatory spells known, more metamagics at all levels, more sorcery points and a way to regain some (not all) on a short rest. Hell regain proficiency bonus sorcery points on a long rest. Even two times that bonus
It's surprisingly even so far, at least compared to what I was expecting (Like 90% fix the current) though I don't know how to check how many people have actually voted.
To make a point for consideration, as it stands now the sorcerer is technically a decently strong class what it lacks is identity, and I don't see WOTC giving to much more identity on it's current path.
I don't want to see a nerf to it's caster status for the sake of improved combat potential; it's easy enough to make a combat proficient sorceror with a small multiclass dip into Hexblade or Eldritch Knight.
Rather I'm disapointed by the extraordinarily narrow quantity of spells known reletive to the available spell slots and spells on the sorceror spell list. I would rather resurect an aspect of 3e and suggest a class feature that adds bonus spells known based on your CHA (or perhaps CON) modifier so insted of a level 3 for example, only knowing 4 spells across 6 slots, they may know 4+~3 or 7 spells across 6 slots.
Similarly, I don't think it needs more focus on metamagic and sorcery points as much as it just needs a little more actualized versatility in its casting potential.
One last thing is for all that the sorceror and wizard spell lists are practically identical, it boggles my mind the one spell wizards have that sorceror's don't in 5e by default is Summon Familiar. 5.5 should put Summon Familiar back on the Sorceror spell list.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
I'd be happier with the narrow spell list if the list were more truly considerate with the metamagic system. Sorcerers are supposed to be sort of more rawly creative magic users and the narrow list and the ho hum metamagic options are basically too prescriptive a grammar.
I think, wild magic could be more suffused in the sorcerer base, but make it less twee whimsy and more volatile and potentially dangerous. Let them twin AOE spells, but presume there will be a high chance of heavy blowback (which a more powerful sorcerer _may_ be able to shape and contain).
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
In 2e and 3e there was no sorceror, but there was psionics, especially the psion. They had a limited but large selection of abilities (spells) and psi PowerPoints to cast them with based on the wisdom, intel and charisma stats of the character and the level. Pulling a lot of stuff from that would go a long way towards making the sorceror what it should be and differentiating it from the Wizard and the warlock.
I don't want to see a nerf to it's caster status for the sake of improved combat potential; it's easy enough to make a combat proficient sorceror with a small multiclass dip into Hexblade or Eldritch Knight.
This is probably my biggest problem with the sorcerer, whenever anyone has a problem with it everyone just tells them to multiclass, also in my opinion the dndnext sorc had far more RP and potentially even exploration potential then the current one ever will.
Realised that in my prior post I didn't actually mention the changes I'd like to see happen to the sorcerer in 5.5.
- Metamagic should be integrated into the class better, so it feels less bolted on. It should also interact with the subclasses in a meaningful way. Each subclass should get a unique and thematic metamagic which is automatically picked alongside the initial two metamagics at the start.
- Origin spells. A sorcerers entire defining point is their bloodline. Each should get unique spells known like the new two subclasses (though I'd argue it should be one of each spell level, and not two).
- Their capstone should be defining in the same way as the Paladin. Each should be able to become an 'avatar' of their bloodline for a minute, with each subclasses capstone offering massively varied abilities in comparison with each other.
Edit: The idea of powerful bloodlines is classic fantasy but it's also sketchy as hell. That's not even the thing I think kills the Sorcerer, though. Metamagic is not enough to build a whole class on, and there's no reason it couldn't be spread out to other classes instead. The Sorcerer doesn't have anything else cool aside from subclasses, and those could easily be refitted for other classes. Even the lore idea of having powers because of your lineage could easily be explained as a Warlock (3.5e warlocks often inherited their pacts) or even any of the other classes (magical aptitude being a starting point for Wizards and Bards is pretty obvious).
They're just not worth preserving. Sorry, Sorcerer fans, but you know I'm right.
Drawing from the 2-3e psion you could grant the sorceror the use of the short sword and light armor to give them a somewhat better combat ability rather than having to multiclass to get combat effectiveness. The sorceror is not a melee type but that gives them some defensive ability if they haven’t taken mage armor as one of their limited spells.
Sorcerers suffer from this particularly, but the 5e has always had a problem with class spell lists--they are all too similar to one another with so much overlap the classes start to bleed together. I would really like to see a massive expansion in the spell options, with many of these new spells being unique to particularly classes. Having a Sorcerer be the only class that can access certain spells (or a Warlock or a Wizard or etc.) would go a long way toward decreasing the homogenization of casting that 5e tends toward.
Edit: The idea of powerful bloodlines is classic fantasy but it's also sketchy as hell. That's not even the thing I think kills the Sorcerer, though. Metamagic is not enough to build a whole class on, and there's no reason it couldn't be spread out to other classes instead. The Sorcerer doesn't have anything else cool aside from subclasses, and those could easily be refitted for other classes. Even the lore idea of having powers because of your lineage could easily be explained as a Warlock (3.5e warlocks often inherited their pacts) or even any of the other classes (magical aptitude being a starting point for Wizards and Bards is pretty obvious).
They're just not worth preserving. Sorry, Sorcerer fans, but you know I'm right.
Honestly I've wondered the same a few times. Sorcerers entire mechanical identity was spontaneous casting, which is now standard for all casters this edition. To compensate the metamagic feat got glued onto the side instead.
Most of their theme is shared with warlock, as anything which is a bloodline can also be a patron. The draconic sorcerer is already mentioned to be able to be got from a pact. Simply merging sorcerer into the warlock class might be the best option. Just switch the warlocks fluff to 'powers can be got from a patron or bloodine', while integrating the most interesting sorcerer features would work fine.
If I were rebuilding the classes, I'd actually remove the wizard class, and give the sorcerer a dual path similar to how warlocks work, with a patron and a pact. In the case of the sorcerer, you'd get a subclass proper and a school (similar but not identical to how current wizard subclasses work). Then I would make "wizard" a sorcerer subclass, where you only got a taste of magic from your bloodline, and the rest comes from study.
Notably, you would pick your sorc subclass right at 1st level, and it would be your subclass that determines your spellcasting ability (this would include the existing sorcerer subclasses, or approximations thereof). For non-wizards, your ability would be CHA, but if you pick the wizard subclass you use INT, and that's when you get your spellbook. The wizard subclass would get fewer sorcery points than the others in exchange for wizardy things like casting rituals right out of your book. Other existing wizard subclasses, like Bladesinger, would get reworked to fit better into the sorcerer chassis. Your school choice would come at 3rd level, and would grant you extra efficiency and power with spells of that school, but it would be independent of your subclass.
I'm not sure exactly what I'd do with warlock to make it distinct from both the sorcerer and the cleric (in terms of a higher power granting magical ability). I guess I'd mostly leave it as is. It's weird and funky.
Or go full caster gish. Give them medium or heavy armor proficiency. A spell list with some unique sorcerer only spells to complement with aura spells, aoe and single target ranged, and buff/debuff options. Utility can be left to wizards. And metamagic to really buff the gish play style. Maybe make them d8 hit die.
I don’t know if they need to be trashed, 5.5E is supposed to be backwards compatible, so it could be a good time to take them in a different direction.
Fixing the sorceror may be a major task - if for no other reason than there are so many different opinions about what needs fixing. Here are my take always from the discussion so far: problems: 1) known spells too limited, needs more 2) needs more sorceror points 3) needs more & better integrated metamagic 4) no functional melee ability (note - this doesn’t mean they need to be a melee monster, just need to have something more than skin, clothes and a dagger/stick)
here are some ideas I’ve had for solutions: 1) raise the known spells from 15 to 20, then each subclass gets 5 additional spells specific to the subclass - 1 each at L1, 5, 10, 15 & 18 spells TBD. 2) as the sorceror now but also +1 for each Charisma bonus point, I’ve also considered granting a much larger number @85 at L20 but requiring 1/spell level to cast any spell. So a magic missile cast at L1 would take 1SP but cast at L3 would take 3 SPs. These SPs would be added based on new spell slots gained (ie if you gain a L4 slot you also gain 4 SPs). 3) still working on these but ideas include taking at least some of the Wizard school abilities like evocation’s shape spell And making them into metamagic. As for integrating them better perhaps gaining them more frequently (instead of L 3,10,17 maybe L 3, 7, 10, 13, 17) . Or gaining subclass specific “metamagic” abilities with at least 2 of the subclass ability boots. Doing much more than that would call for further increasing the sorcery points and I’m not sure that is reasonable. 4) This is probably the easiest - allow sorcerors to wear light and hide armor, bucklers (+1AC) and wield simple weapons (melee and missile) except for the short bow. This gives them a little protection in melee ( equal to base mage armor) and some close combat capability. Against a determined attack they are still toast but hey have some defensive ability. 5) Take most of the Wizard subclass/school abilities and turn them into feats/subclass abilities available to the sorceror.
I hate you and I hate the fact that you technically correct. Though I will in all seriousness urge you to take a look at the old dndnext sorcerer. The mechanics are obviously out of date, but I think it has enough of a mechanical and maybe not thematic, but certainly enough of an aesthetic niche to justify it's existence separate from the Warlock. Which would be heavily bloated if it tried to fit the Transformation mechanic in alongside Invocations and such.
Edit: @ChoirOfFire I don't know if @ing works on this site but
I hate you and I hate the fact that you technically correct. Though I will in all seriousness urge you to take a look at the old dndnext sorcerer. The mechanics are obviously out of date, but I think it has enough of a mechanical and maybe not thematic, but certainly enough of an aesthetic niche to justify it's existence separate from the Warlock. Which would be heavily bloated if it tried to fit the Transformation mechanic in alongside Invocations and such.
Edit: @ChoirOfFire I don't know if @ing works on this site but
I just read the document with the Dragon Sorcerer. It's definitely neat. But I'd call it "cute." As in, it's very appealing from the perspective of a designer -- reading it does tell you the story of the class, and it's clever -- but that says nothing about its quality as a game element. I'd want to try it out for sure, but I'm guessing they did, and that it wasn't great.
It's possible that the audience that would appreciate it just wasn't quite big enough to justify including it or spending the money on fully developing it over other options. By which I mean, it might be a perfectly good design, just without as broad an appeal. Without testing it, I can't say. That kind of thing is usually a great fit for a subclass, but for obvious reasons this doesn't really fit as a subclass for anything that exists currently. (Though, with the minimal number of spell "slots," maybe it could be a Warlock patron...)
It's weird how different it feels from the final product.
I hate you and I hate the fact that you technically correct. Though I will in all seriousness urge you to take a look at the old dndnext sorcerer. The mechanics are obviously out of date, but I think it has enough of a mechanical and maybe not thematic, but certainly enough of an aesthetic niche to justify it's existence separate from the Warlock. Which would be heavily bloated if it tried to fit the Transformation mechanic in alongside Invocations and such.
Edit: @ChoirOfFire I don't know if @ing works on this site but
I just read the document with the Dragon Sorcerer. It's definitely neat. But I'd call it "cute." As in, it's very appealing from the perspective of a designer -- reading it does tell you the story of the class, and it's clever -- but that says nothing about its quality as a game element. I'd want to try it out for sure, but I'm guessing they did, and that it wasn't great.
It's possible that the audience that would appreciate it just wasn't quite big enough to justify including it or spending the money on fully developing it over other options. By which I mean, it might be a perfectly good design, just without as broad an appeal. Without testing it, I can't say. That kind of thing is usually a great fit for a subclass, but for obvious reasons this doesn't really fit as a subclass for anything that exists currently. (Though, with the minimal number of spell "slots," maybe it could be a Warlock patron...)
It's weird how different it feels from the final product.
I think the issue people had was that it was too different to what was expected from the sorcerer. In prior editions it was basically wizard with no spellbook and spontaneous casting. They tried to give the sorcerer its own identity in the playtest (pushing it into the gish niche) and got mixed responses.
So it then disappeared the the entire playtest, only to come back in the final product as a ****** wizard with the metamagic feat glued on.
Was a two for one disaster imo. They simultaneously made the sorcerer uninspired and dull, while killing the swordmage class at the same time as the sorcerers initial plan was to slot into that role.
I'd love to see an Elemental Sorcerer that has a very limited list of spells, but lots of options for metamagic. So, a pyromancer could have only a fire attack spell plus a few options of utility /defense spells, but could modify that fire spell in a number of ways that wouldn't apply to other spells - increasing the radius of the effect, increasing the damage, increasing the accuracy, making it a continuous beam of fire attack or a cone attack. They'd have lots of sorcery points that they could use and get them earlier.
I'd love to see an Elemental Sorcerer that has a very limited list of spells, but lots of options for metamagic. So, a pyromancer could have only a fire attack spell plus a few options of utility /defense spells, but could modify that fire spell in a number of ways that wouldn't apply to other spells - increasing the radius of the effect, increasing the damage, increasing the accuracy, making it a continuous beam of fire attack or a cone attack. They'd have lots of sorcery points that they could use and get them earlier.
It's criminal that the elemental sorcerers got cut and never made it through UA. I'm still sore about that one several years on.
Elemental themes in general are very neglected in DnD.
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It’s supposed to be the spell caster that can tweak spells on the fly. It’s supposed to be the character that can adapt the spells it has. The one that can amplify and twist and force. That’s what it should be. And it needs more mandatory spells known, more metamagics at all levels, more sorcery points and a way to regain some (not all) on a short rest. Hell regain proficiency bonus sorcery points on a long rest. Even two times that bonus
It's surprisingly even so far, at least compared to what I was expecting (Like 90% fix the current) though I don't know how to check how many people have actually voted.
To make a point for consideration, as it stands now the sorcerer is technically a decently strong class what it lacks is identity, and I don't see WOTC giving to much more identity on it's current path.
I don't want to see a nerf to it's caster status for the sake of improved combat potential; it's easy enough to make a combat proficient sorceror with a small multiclass dip into Hexblade or Eldritch Knight.
Rather I'm disapointed by the extraordinarily narrow quantity of spells known reletive to the available spell slots and spells on the sorceror spell list. I would rather resurect an aspect of 3e and suggest a class feature that adds bonus spells known based on your CHA (or perhaps CON) modifier so insted of a level 3 for example, only knowing 4 spells across 6 slots, they may know 4+~3 or 7 spells across 6 slots.
Similarly, I don't think it needs more focus on metamagic and sorcery points as much as it just needs a little more actualized versatility in its casting potential.
One last thing is for all that the sorceror and wizard spell lists are practically identical, it boggles my mind the one spell wizards have that sorceror's don't in 5e by default is Summon Familiar. 5.5 should put Summon Familiar back on the Sorceror spell list.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
I'd be happier with the narrow spell list if the list were more truly considerate with the metamagic system. Sorcerers are supposed to be sort of more rawly creative magic users and the narrow list and the ho hum metamagic options are basically too prescriptive a grammar.
I think, wild magic could be more suffused in the sorcerer base, but make it less twee whimsy and more volatile and potentially dangerous. Let them twin AOE spells, but presume there will be a high chance of heavy blowback (which a more powerful sorcerer _may_ be able to shape and contain).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
In 2e and 3e there was no sorceror, but there was psionics, especially the psion. They had a limited but large selection of abilities (spells) and psi PowerPoints to cast them with based on the wisdom, intel and charisma stats of the character and the level. Pulling a lot of stuff from that would go a long way towards making the sorceror what it should be and differentiating it from the Wizard and the warlock.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This is probably my biggest problem with the sorcerer, whenever anyone has a problem with it everyone just tells them to multiclass, also in my opinion the dndnext sorc had far more RP and potentially even exploration potential then the current one ever will.
Realised that in my prior post I didn't actually mention the changes I'd like to see happen to the sorcerer in 5.5.
- Metamagic should be integrated into the class better, so it feels less bolted on. It should also interact with the subclasses in a meaningful way. Each subclass should get a unique and thematic metamagic which is automatically picked alongside the initial two metamagics at the start.
- Origin spells. A sorcerers entire defining point is their bloodline. Each should get unique spells known like the new two subclasses (though I'd argue it should be one of each spell level, and not two).
- Their capstone should be defining in the same way as the Paladin. Each should be able to become an 'avatar' of their bloodline for a minute, with each subclasses capstone offering massively varied abilities in comparison with each other.
Nix the whole class. Kill your darlings.
Edit: The idea of powerful bloodlines is classic fantasy but it's also sketchy as hell. That's not even the thing I think kills the Sorcerer, though. Metamagic is not enough to build a whole class on, and there's no reason it couldn't be spread out to other classes instead. The Sorcerer doesn't have anything else cool aside from subclasses, and those could easily be refitted for other classes. Even the lore idea of having powers because of your lineage could easily be explained as a Warlock (3.5e warlocks often inherited their pacts) or even any of the other classes (magical aptitude being a starting point for Wizards and Bards is pretty obvious).
They're just not worth preserving. Sorry, Sorcerer fans, but you know I'm right.
Drawing from the 2-3e psion you could grant the sorceror the use of the short sword and light armor to give them a somewhat better combat ability rather than having to multiclass to get combat effectiveness. The sorceror is not a melee type but that gives them some defensive ability if they haven’t taken mage armor as one of their limited spells.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Sorcerers suffer from this particularly, but the 5e has always had a problem with class spell lists--they are all too similar to one another with so much overlap the classes start to bleed together. I would really like to see a massive expansion in the spell options, with many of these new spells being unique to particularly classes. Having a Sorcerer be the only class that can access certain spells (or a Warlock or a Wizard or etc.) would go a long way toward decreasing the homogenization of casting that 5e tends toward.
Honestly I've wondered the same a few times. Sorcerers entire mechanical identity was spontaneous casting, which is now standard for all casters this edition. To compensate the metamagic feat got glued onto the side instead.
Most of their theme is shared with warlock, as anything which is a bloodline can also be a patron. The draconic sorcerer is already mentioned to be able to be got from a pact. Simply merging sorcerer into the warlock class might be the best option. Just switch the warlocks fluff to 'powers can be got from a patron or bloodine', while integrating the most interesting sorcerer features would work fine.
If I were rebuilding the classes, I'd actually remove the wizard class, and give the sorcerer a dual path similar to how warlocks work, with a patron and a pact. In the case of the sorcerer, you'd get a subclass proper and a school (similar but not identical to how current wizard subclasses work). Then I would make "wizard" a sorcerer subclass, where you only got a taste of magic from your bloodline, and the rest comes from study.
Notably, you would pick your sorc subclass right at 1st level, and it would be your subclass that determines your spellcasting ability (this would include the existing sorcerer subclasses, or approximations thereof). For non-wizards, your ability would be CHA, but if you pick the wizard subclass you use INT, and that's when you get your spellbook. The wizard subclass would get fewer sorcery points than the others in exchange for wizardy things like casting rituals right out of your book. Other existing wizard subclasses, like Bladesinger, would get reworked to fit better into the sorcerer chassis. Your school choice would come at 3rd level, and would grant you extra efficiency and power with spells of that school, but it would be independent of your subclass.
I'm not sure exactly what I'd do with warlock to make it distinct from both the sorcerer and the cleric (in terms of a higher power granting magical ability). I guess I'd mostly leave it as is. It's weird and funky.
Or go full caster gish. Give them medium or heavy armor proficiency. A spell list with some unique sorcerer only spells to complement with aura spells, aoe and single target ranged, and buff/debuff options. Utility can be left to wizards. And metamagic to really buff the gish play style. Maybe make them d8 hit die.
I don’t know if they need to be trashed, 5.5E is supposed to be backwards compatible, so it could be a good time to take them in a different direction.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Fix the current sorcerer - I'd like to see the sorcerer beefed up a bit. For me, at minimum, that would translate into increased sorcery points.
Fixing the sorceror may be a major task - if for no other reason than there are so many different opinions about what needs fixing. Here are my take always from the discussion so far:
problems:
1) known spells too limited, needs more
2) needs more sorceror points
3) needs more & better integrated metamagic
4) no functional melee ability (note - this doesn’t mean they need to be a melee monster, just need to have something more than skin, clothes and a dagger/stick)
here are some ideas I’ve had for solutions:
1) raise the known spells from 15 to 20, then each subclass gets 5 additional spells specific to the subclass - 1 each at L1, 5, 10, 15 & 18 spells TBD.
2) as the sorceror now but also +1 for each Charisma bonus point, I’ve also considered granting a much larger number @85 at L20 but requiring 1/spell level to cast any spell. So a magic missile cast at L1 would take 1SP but cast at L3 would take 3 SPs. These SPs would be added based on new spell slots gained (ie if you gain a L4 slot you also gain 4 SPs).
3) still working on these but ideas include taking at least some of the Wizard school abilities like evocation’s shape spell And making them into metamagic. As for integrating them better perhaps gaining them more frequently (instead of L 3,10,17 maybe L 3, 7, 10, 13, 17) . Or gaining subclass specific “metamagic” abilities with at least 2 of the subclass ability boots. Doing much more than that would call for further increasing the sorcery points and I’m not sure that is reasonable.
4) This is probably the easiest - allow sorcerors to wear light and hide armor, bucklers (+1AC) and wield simple weapons (melee and missile) except for the short bow. This gives them a little protection in melee ( equal to base mage armor) and some close combat capability. Against a determined attack they are still toast but hey have some defensive ability.
5) Take most of the Wizard subclass/school abilities and turn them into feats/subclass abilities available to the sorceror.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I hate you and I hate the fact that you technically correct. Though I will in all seriousness urge you to take a look at the old dndnext sorcerer. The mechanics are obviously out of date, but I think it has enough of a mechanical and maybe not thematic, but certainly enough of an aesthetic niche to justify it's existence separate from the Warlock. Which would be heavily bloated if it tried to fit the Transformation mechanic in alongside Invocations and such.
Edit: @ChoirOfFire I don't know if @ing works on this site but
I just read the document with the Dragon Sorcerer. It's definitely neat. But I'd call it "cute." As in, it's very appealing from the perspective of a designer -- reading it does tell you the story of the class, and it's clever -- but that says nothing about its quality as a game element. I'd want to try it out for sure, but I'm guessing they did, and that it wasn't great.
It's possible that the audience that would appreciate it just wasn't quite big enough to justify including it or spending the money on fully developing it over other options. By which I mean, it might be a perfectly good design, just without as broad an appeal. Without testing it, I can't say. That kind of thing is usually a great fit for a subclass, but for obvious reasons this doesn't really fit as a subclass for anything that exists currently. (Though, with the minimal number of spell "slots," maybe it could be a Warlock patron...)
It's weird how different it feels from the final product.
I think the issue people had was that it was too different to what was expected from the sorcerer. In prior editions it was basically wizard with no spellbook and spontaneous casting. They tried to give the sorcerer its own identity in the playtest (pushing it into the gish niche) and got mixed responses.
So it then disappeared the the entire playtest, only to come back in the final product as a ****** wizard with the metamagic feat glued on.
Was a two for one disaster imo. They simultaneously made the sorcerer uninspired and dull, while killing the swordmage class at the same time as the sorcerers initial plan was to slot into that role.
I'd love to see an Elemental Sorcerer that has a very limited list of spells, but lots of options for metamagic. So, a pyromancer could have only a fire attack spell plus a few options of utility /defense spells, but could modify that fire spell in a number of ways that wouldn't apply to other spells - increasing the radius of the effect, increasing the damage, increasing the accuracy, making it a continuous beam of fire attack or a cone attack. They'd have lots of sorcery points that they could use and get them earlier.
https://sayeth.itch.io/
It's criminal that the elemental sorcerers got cut and never made it through UA. I'm still sore about that one several years on.
Elemental themes in general are very neglected in DnD.