The problem with this U.A is that it gives all the other classes some huge buffs while the wizard gets absolutely nothing, so it's like an indirect nerf. Take for example the evocation wizard and compare it with any cleric, now the cleric does more damage with both spells and cantrips and has a better AC, hit dice, saves and stronger subclasses, so why should i play a wizard instead of a cleric?
maybe thats because the wizard was stronger than the other classes? In many cases the wizard is still stronger than those classes so Im not seeing the issue
The wizard is nowhere near as strong as many people claim it to be, it has no class features except arcane recovey, subpar subclasses and the worst damage potential of the game after maybe the bard, rigth now it's mostly an out of combat utility class.
Even their spell list, although the widest in the game, is also full of extremely situational utility spells that you would never prepare, I really can't see how they are stronger than the other classes
The Reason why an Evoker deals less damage, than a Cleric ist first and foremost, because Wizards are not the Damage Dealers in DnD 5e. And another Reason why the Subclass-Features are not as Strong than other Classes is because a Wizard don't loose any Options for choosing one School of Magic. A Fighter can choose Eldritch Knight and get Spellcasting but will not be able to get the awesome abilities of a Battle Master and vice versa. An Evoker is especially good in Evocation Magic (he can blast alle day long and will never hurt his Partymembers, which is a HUGE buff for AoE-Damage at 2nd Level) but don't loose any versatility in his Class possibilities at all. He still has, or may have, any spell from any school for any Situation in his Book, but he exceeds in Blasting Things up.
A high level Wizard with less than a Week downtime can create a Simulacrum with a perfect spell List for Combat Situation and hide it in a Demiplane. In a Situation in your campaign in which more spellpower is highly needed he can summon a full caster Support in the blink of an Eye. This is very Powerful and in my opinion really cool and fun! I would never underestimate a wizard in the hand of skilled player. But just looking at the spells that are exclusive to the wizard creates a false sense of the class at all. A Wizard can cast nearly any spell that the other classes have access too with a few exceptions (for which the Wizard has other options) and healing . And even the part about healing is not true at all, because the best healers prevent damage and buff partymembers. Both disciplines in which a wizard have good options in his subclasses and Spellbook. He may not restore Hitpoints, but he has a lot of other options to guaranty the survival of his allies. Which leads me to my last point:
As far as i can see your point, you're disappointed with a wizards AC and damage-output. While you're maybe right in this points, an out of combat utility class is far away from useless. And i highly doubt that a wizard is only an out of Combat class at all. In the first Levels Spells like sleep, Hideous Laughter, hold Person and the like are way more impactful on the outcome of a combat Situation than just another d12+4 on the damage table. Sure other classes may cast this spells as well, but this is a stupid argument considering that there are often more than one fighting archetype in every group. The wizard has advantage in this situation against a cleric and druid in the case, that he has a way more flexible Spell List and against Bards and Sorcerers that he has way more spells prepared. He is able to pick a well suited List for a lot more situations at once. This is a huge upside in my opinion, but is often considered less useful by a lot of other folk.... In my opinion the biggest "mistake" in your argumentation is that you only look at the combat-aspect of the game and that you only evaluate armor class and damage output in your consideration. Obviously it's not a mistake, it's another opinion that evaluates different aspects of the game in different ways. So maybe the conclusion is, that the wizard is not the right class for you.
I would play a Wizard because I want to play an Arcane Caster, don’t like that Sorcerers get nothing back on a Short Rest, and don’t like that Warlocks only ever have enough slots to limp from short rest to short rest like a wounded animal. To put it quite simple, deferent players prioritize different things when making a character. If for you, D&D stands for “defense and damage” then you are absolutely correct, you should never play a Wizard.
The main problem with this UA is the fact that Wizards are still limited to their spellbook, while nearly every other spellcaster now has access to their whole spell list. The spellbook is a good restriction, and it works mechanically, but once you give all the other casters access to their WHOLE LIST ONCE A DAY, this makes Wizards feel more restricted, as if their spellbook is a drawback, instead of the boon that it should be. Artificers, Druids, Clerics, and Paladins can change all of their spells every time they take a long rest, so can Wizards, but the main difference is that Wizards are limited to their spellbook, while Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Artificers have access to their whole list, every long rest. If a Wizard wants access to their whole class list, they have to spend thousands and thousands of gold pieces and many many hours sitting at a desk writing spells into their spellbook, after they find other spellbooks with those spells in it, or spell scrolls that they have to waste in order just to put them into their spellbook.
Now, with this UA, the Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Ranger now gets the ability to change one of their known spells for any other spell on their spell list of the same level that they want to get. If a Warlock wants to change Fly for Animate Dead, when they didn't know Animate Dead before, they now have the ability to do so.
This UA restricts the Wizard more by giving the other classes more versatility, which they should have. All the other classes are extremely limited in their spell choices, but when you give them the ability to change their spells for any spell from their list that they want, the Wizard feels really restricted, and is now the only caster that has to choose spells from a source that isn't their whole spell list.
I like that the other classes get Spell Versatility, but this creates a problem that Wizards of the Coast needs to fix.
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Lol, sorcerers can transform points into more slots than a wizard ends up with but no one plays a sorcerer to not use metamagic. Metamagic is the only reason to play a sorcerer outside of fluff reasons.
The best reason to play a wizard is because the prep more spells than sorcerers or bards know. Typically they prep more than a warlock knows but a warlock can take invocations that give them comparable spells known. Wizard and warlock would still be very different in casting mechanics and those invocations are generally weaker choices.
The other main reasons are because of the ritual casting mechanic differences, the huge selection from a large list that other classes do not match, and the desire to take a specific specialty because wizard traditions are good, and if a game goes high enough spell mastery is ridiculously good.
Wizard have more spell options during actual game play than other arcane casters. That was true before and it's true with the UA options. Nothing changed in that regard.
After this U.A the wizard only has 26 exclusive spells, considering that they only get one class feature (arcane recovery) and that the subclasses are quite weak I don't think it's enough. And even a fighter can get ritual casting through a feat.
They would still have to have the spellcasting feature, and level and everything else.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
After this U.A the wizard only has 26 exclusive spells, considering that they only get one class feature (arcane recovery) and that the subclasses are quite weak I don't think it's enough. And even a fighter can get ritual casting through a feat.
Sure, but the wizard still has a feat to use compared to any other class the picks up ritual casting for a feat. The UA didn't change that in any way.
26 exclusive spells is still more than any other arcane caster has and nothing has changed in the fact wizards have more spells prepped during play that the other classes know. Swapping spells during rests wasn't the significant reason to play a wizard in the first place. They usually just run a main list they like and keep it most of the time.
The UA made changes to those other classes to address a concern where those classes were not performing in the aspect of how often they were expected to swap spells in the first place. It doesn't make sense to fix a class that doesn't have an issue just because there was a fix proposed for classes that did have an identified issue.
As I said it's like an indirect nerf because all other classes have been buffed, like the cleric damage buff, while the wizard hasn't received anything. At least give them some useful spells like command and heat metal.
As I said it's like an indirect nerf because all other classes have been buffed, like the cleric damage buff, while the wizard hasn't received anything. At least give them some useful spells like command and heat metal.
It might seem like that to you but it was a fix for an issue with some classes when a wizard did not need any fixes. Wizards can also spend a lot of spell preparation on high level slots for a level of versatility with the most powerful spell slots simply not available to other arcane casters if they choose. It's not that common of an argument because spell preparation wasn't the main draw anyway but it's not like bards, sorcerers, or warlocks suddenly have 4 9th-level spells available to make use of the slot at 17th level like the wizard can.
Wizards did not suddenly became crippled just because a UA article moved other classes closer to a spell swapping rate closer to what was originally expected and not met.
This UA and the survey for it also came and went. The time to push the point was before the survey. If other people agree with you WotC already has that information. If you are in the minority then WotC already has that information. You'll find out where the feedback led the development when or if the UA proposed changes come out in an official release. UA is never official play material at any rate.
I could agree that that the wizard was stronger than the sorcerer, but they were absolutely not stronger than other classes such as the cleric and the bard ad even the druid, if anything the opposite.
I could agree that that the wizard was stronger than the sorcerer, but they were absolutely not stronger than other classes such as the cleric and the bard ad even the druid, if anything the opposite.
What class might be stronger wasn't the consideration. It was a solution for an issue that was identified in the mechanics where spell swapping on classes using spells known was not meeting expectations.
Clerics and druids already use spell swapping too so that hasn't changed and the source for spell versatility precludes using it for magical secrets. I did not agree with harness divine power (that looks like it is meant to give channel divinity a use for when it might not have any use in an adventure) and I have misgivings on blessed strikes (that looks like it is meant to open up melee vs caster builds based on domains when domains are more locked in to melee or caster without it) and put that in my feedback. Using wildshape for a summon instead doesn't seem excessive.
I think the problem is that the costs for writing a spell into your spell book are ridiculously high and makes the main feature of the wizard unusable.
I think the problem is that the costs for writing a spell into your spell book are ridiculously high and makes the main feature of the wizard unusable.
If you think the reason people play wizards is because they can scribes scrolls I'm going to call that an alternative perspective. ;-)
The free spells scribed leveling are enough. There was never a need to scribe more. I wish some of my characters had a bonus mechanic where spending gold improved their features, lol.
I think the problem is that the costs for writing a spell into your spell book are ridiculously high and makes the main feature of the wizard unusable.
If you think the reason people play wizards is because they can scribes scrolls I'm going to call that an alternative perspective. ;-)
The free spells scribed leveling are enough. There was never a need to scribe more. I wish some of my characters had a bonus mechanic where spending gold improved their features, lol.
But, the spellbook just has all the spells they can prepare in a day, choosing which ones they want. Druids, Artificers, Clerics, and Paladins all get to choose from their whole spell list every day, not just a limited source that can be destroyed.
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I think the problem is that the costs for writing a spell into your spell book are ridiculously high and makes the main feature of the wizard unusable.
Yeah it feels like they came up with that cost while making assumptions of wealth similar to 3e D&D. Instead all the published adventures are like hey you fought off an army of dragons here is 500GP at level 20.
I think the problem is that the costs for writing a spell into your spell book are ridiculously high and makes the main feature of the wizard unusable.
Yeah it feels like they came up with that cost while making assumptions of wealth similar to 3e D&D. Instead all the published adventures are like hey you fought off an army of dragons here is 500GP at level 20.
Actually, I don’t think the cost to scribe spells has changed From 50gp/level since 2e.
maybe thats because the wizard was stronger than the other classes? In many cases the wizard is still stronger than those classes so Im not seeing the issue
The wizard is nowhere near as strong as many people claim it to be, it has no class features except arcane recovey, subpar subclasses and the worst damage potential of the game after maybe the bard, rigth now it's mostly an out of combat utility class.
Even their spell list, although the widest in the game, is also full of extremely situational utility spells that you would never prepare, I really can't see how they are stronger than the other classes
The Reason why an Evoker deals less damage, than a Cleric ist first and foremost, because Wizards are not the Damage Dealers in DnD 5e. And another Reason why the Subclass-Features are not as Strong than other Classes is because a Wizard don't loose any Options for choosing one School of Magic.
A Fighter can choose Eldritch Knight and get Spellcasting but will not be able to get the awesome abilities of a Battle Master and vice versa.
An Evoker is especially good in Evocation Magic (he can blast alle day long and will never hurt his Partymembers, which is a HUGE buff for AoE-Damage at 2nd Level) but don't loose any versatility in his Class possibilities at all. He still has, or may have, any spell from any school for any Situation in his Book, but he exceeds in Blasting Things up.
A high level Wizard with less than a Week downtime can create a Simulacrum with a perfect spell List for Combat Situation and hide it in a Demiplane. In a Situation in your campaign in which more spellpower is highly needed he can summon a full caster Support in the blink of an Eye. This is very Powerful and in my opinion really cool and fun! I would never underestimate a wizard in the hand of skilled player.
But just looking at the spells that are exclusive to the wizard creates a false sense of the class at all. A Wizard can cast nearly any spell that the other classes have access too with a few exceptions (for which the Wizard has other options) and healing . And even the part about healing is not true at all, because the best healers prevent damage and buff partymembers. Both disciplines in which a wizard have good options in his subclasses and Spellbook. He may not restore Hitpoints, but he has a lot of other options to guaranty the survival of his allies. Which leads me to my last point:
As far as i can see your point, you're disappointed with a wizards AC and damage-output. While you're maybe right in this points, an out of combat utility class is far away from useless. And i highly doubt that a wizard is only an out of Combat class at all. In the first Levels Spells like sleep, Hideous Laughter, hold Person and the like are way more impactful on the outcome of a combat Situation than just another d12+4 on the damage table. Sure other classes may cast this spells as well, but this is a stupid argument considering that there are often more than one fighting archetype in every group. The wizard has advantage in this situation against a cleric and druid in the case, that he has a way more flexible Spell List and against Bards and Sorcerers that he has way more spells prepared. He is able to pick a well suited List for a lot more situations at once. This is a huge upside in my opinion, but is often considered less useful by a lot of other folk....
In my opinion the biggest "mistake" in your argumentation is that you only look at the combat-aspect of the game and that you only evaluate armor class and damage output in your consideration.
Obviously it's not a mistake, it's another opinion that evaluates different aspects of the game in different ways. So maybe the conclusion is, that the wizard is not the right class for you.
I would play a Wizard because I want to play an Arcane Caster, don’t like that Sorcerers get nothing back on a Short Rest, and don’t like that Warlocks only ever have enough slots to limp from short rest to short rest like a wounded animal. To put it quite simple, deferent players prioritize different things when making a character. If for you, D&D stands for “defense and damage” then you are absolutely correct, you should never play a Wizard.
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I absolutely love wizards, so much, as a concept. But I feel like they simply don't work in battle in 5e.
The main problem with this UA is the fact that Wizards are still limited to their spellbook, while nearly every other spellcaster now has access to their whole spell list. The spellbook is a good restriction, and it works mechanically, but once you give all the other casters access to their WHOLE LIST ONCE A DAY, this makes Wizards feel more restricted, as if their spellbook is a drawback, instead of the boon that it should be. Artificers, Druids, Clerics, and Paladins can change all of their spells every time they take a long rest, so can Wizards, but the main difference is that Wizards are limited to their spellbook, while Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Artificers have access to their whole list, every long rest. If a Wizard wants access to their whole class list, they have to spend thousands and thousands of gold pieces and many many hours sitting at a desk writing spells into their spellbook, after they find other spellbooks with those spells in it, or spell scrolls that they have to waste in order just to put them into their spellbook.
Now, with this UA, the Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Ranger now gets the ability to change one of their known spells for any other spell on their spell list of the same level that they want to get. If a Warlock wants to change Fly for Animate Dead, when they didn't know Animate Dead before, they now have the ability to do so.
This UA restricts the Wizard more by giving the other classes more versatility, which they should have. All the other classes are extremely limited in their spell choices, but when you give them the ability to change their spells for any spell from their list that they want, the Wizard feels really restricted, and is now the only caster that has to choose spells from a source that isn't their whole spell list.
I like that the other classes get Spell Versatility, but this creates a problem that Wizards of the Coast needs to fix.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Lol, sorcerers can transform points into more slots than a wizard ends up with but no one plays a sorcerer to not use metamagic. Metamagic is the only reason to play a sorcerer outside of fluff reasons.
The best reason to play a wizard is because the prep more spells than sorcerers or bards know. Typically they prep more than a warlock knows but a warlock can take invocations that give them comparable spells known. Wizard and warlock would still be very different in casting mechanics and those invocations are generally weaker choices.
The other main reasons are because of the ritual casting mechanic differences, the huge selection from a large list that other classes do not match, and the desire to take a specific specialty because wizard traditions are good, and if a game goes high enough spell mastery is ridiculously good.
Wizard have more spell options during actual game play than other arcane casters. That was true before and it's true with the UA options. Nothing changed in that regard.
After this U.A the wizard only has 26 exclusive spells, considering that they only get one class feature (arcane recovery) and that the subclasses are quite weak I don't think it's enough. And even a fighter can get ritual casting through a feat.
They would still have to have the spellcasting feature, and level and everything else.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Sure, but the wizard still has a feat to use compared to any other class the picks up ritual casting for a feat. The UA didn't change that in any way.
26 exclusive spells is still more than any other arcane caster has and nothing has changed in the fact wizards have more spells prepped during play that the other classes know. Swapping spells during rests wasn't the significant reason to play a wizard in the first place. They usually just run a main list they like and keep it most of the time.
The UA made changes to those other classes to address a concern where those classes were not performing in the aspect of how often they were expected to swap spells in the first place. It doesn't make sense to fix a class that doesn't have an issue just because there was a fix proposed for classes that did have an identified issue.
This thread looks like over-reaction to me.
As I said it's like an indirect nerf because all other classes have been buffed, like the cleric damage buff, while the wizard hasn't received anything. At least give them some useful spells like command and heat metal.
Has it maybe occurred to anyone that this was done that way to bring everything else up to par with how good Wizards already were?
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It might seem like that to you but it was a fix for an issue with some classes when a wizard did not need any fixes. Wizards can also spend a lot of spell preparation on high level slots for a level of versatility with the most powerful spell slots simply not available to other arcane casters if they choose. It's not that common of an argument because spell preparation wasn't the main draw anyway but it's not like bards, sorcerers, or warlocks suddenly have 4 9th-level spells available to make use of the slot at 17th level like the wizard can.
Wizards did not suddenly became crippled just because a UA article moved other classes closer to a spell swapping rate closer to what was originally expected and not met.
This UA and the survey for it also came and went. The time to push the point was before the survey. If other people agree with you WotC already has that information. If you are in the minority then WotC already has that information. You'll find out where the feedback led the development when or if the UA proposed changes come out in an official release. UA is never official play material at any rate.
I could agree that that the wizard was stronger than the sorcerer, but they were absolutely not stronger than other classes such as the cleric and the bard ad even the druid, if anything the opposite.
What class might be stronger wasn't the consideration. It was a solution for an issue that was identified in the mechanics where spell swapping on classes using spells known was not meeting expectations.
Clerics and druids already use spell swapping too so that hasn't changed and the source for spell versatility precludes using it for magical secrets. I did not agree with harness divine power (that looks like it is meant to give channel divinity a use for when it might not have any use in an adventure) and I have misgivings on blessed strikes (that looks like it is meant to open up melee vs caster builds based on domains when domains are more locked in to melee or caster without it) and put that in my feedback. Using wildshape for a summon instead doesn't seem excessive.
I think the problem is that the costs for writing a spell into your spell book are ridiculously high and makes the main feature of the wizard unusable.
If you think the reason people play wizards is because they can scribes scrolls I'm going to call that an alternative perspective. ;-)
The free spells scribed leveling are enough. There was never a need to scribe more. I wish some of my characters had a bonus mechanic where spending gold improved their features, lol.
But, the spellbook just has all the spells they can prepare in a day, choosing which ones they want. Druids, Artificers, Clerics, and Paladins all get to choose from their whole spell list every day, not just a limited source that can be destroyed.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yeah it feels like they came up with that cost while making assumptions of wealth similar to 3e D&D. Instead all the published adventures are like hey you fought off an army of dragons here is 500GP at level 20.
Actually, I don’t think the cost to scribe spells has changed From 50gp/level since 2e.
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