Is Dual Wielder Necessary?

Quote from jl8e >>

Every time you attack with a light weapon as part of the Attack action, you're fulfilling those conditions and activating the Light ability again. When Nick pulls the light extra attack into the attack action, that is another trigger. Without Nick's cap, only the Bonus action economy stops you using it more.

If your interpretation is actually impossible per the rules -- which this one is -- it probably needs some work

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Every time you attack with a light weapon as part of the Attack action, you're fulfilling those conditions and activating the Light ability again. When Nick pulls the light extra attack into the attack action, that is another trigger. Without Nick's cap, only the Bonus action economy stops you using it more.

 

If your interpretation is actually impossible per the rules -- which this one is -- it probably needs some work

 That's only the case if the interpretation is specific, and it's not -- this kind of template is common throughout the 5e rules. (And it's also an extremely common thing in exception-based rules systems in general.) 

One of the whole points of analyzing rules is to figure out the underlying systems, so you can generalize to cases you haven't seen before.

Also, if you're correct about the light attack being inherently capped, why does Nick have that limitation?

In terms of the "this" under Nick referring to a completely different set of text rather than the specific attack mentioned in the previous sentence that it would ordinarily refer to in the English language, consider what happens if you:

1. Attack Action: Light weapon #1
2. Bonus Action: Light property attack with Light weapon #2
3. Attack Action: Light Weapon #1
4. Attack Action: Nick/Light property attack with Light weapon #2

Even if you believe that Nick shuts down all Light property triggers for the rest of the turn rather than just the Nick ability itself, it can't perform that shutdown until you've used it (at which point it is too late to 'take back' that attack you've already made). For contrast, consider the ability Steady Aim that requires you not being moving. It's explicitly written to be unusable if you've already moved precisely to avoid this issue.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

In terms of the "this" under Nick referring to a completely different set of text rather than the specific attack mentioned in the previous sentence that it would ordinarily refer to in the English language, consider what happens if you:

1. Attack Action: Light weapon #1
2. Bonus Action: Light property attack with Light weapon #2
3. Attack Action: Light Weapon #1
4. Attack Action: Nick/Light property attack with Light weapon #2

Even if you believe that Nick shuts down all Light property triggers for the rest of the turn rather than just the Nick ability itself, it can't perform that shutdown until you've used it (at which point it is too late to 'take back' that attack you've already made). For contrast, consider the ability Steady Aim that requires you not being moving. It's explicitly written to be unusable if you've already moved precisely to avoid this issue.

 

I was going to post this sequence earlier, but decided not to because (a) it requires you to also assume that a BA can inherently interrupt and Action, which I don't think it can do without specific timing rules that allow it, and (b) part 4 really just kind of puts the Nick attack in this quasi-quantum state where it's available to you unless you use it and then it's retroactively unavailable to you. For part (b) I think you couldn't use it because using it would violate it.

Note that if you don't subscribe to the notion that a BA can interrupt an Action without special timing rules in the BA you are choosing to take, this never comes up.

Quote from jl8e >>

Also, if you're correct about the light attack being inherently capped, why does Nick have that limitation?

It doesn't have the same limitation. Nick is specifically once per turn, not once per Attack action

If you have Action Surge, you can use both on the same turn (one Light/Nick attack as part of one of your Attack actions, and one usual Light attack as a Bonus Action) but not two -- or more -- Light/Nick attacks

Quote from sabin76 >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

In terms of the "this" under Nick referring to a completely different set of text rather than the specific attack mentioned in the previous sentence that it would ordinarily refer to in the English language, consider what happens if you:

1. Attack Action: Light weapon #1
2. Bonus Action: Light property attack with Light weapon #2
3. Attack Action: Light Weapon #1
4. Attack Action: Nick/Light property attack with Light weapon #2

Even if you believe that Nick shuts down all Light property triggers for the rest of the turn rather than just the Nick ability itself, it can't perform that shutdown until you've used it (at which point it is too late to 'take back' that attack you've already made). For contrast, consider the ability Steady Aim that requires you not being moving. It's explicitly written to be unusable if you've already moved precisely to avoid this issue.

 

I was going to post this sequence earlier, but decided not to because (a) it requires you to also assume that a BA can inherently interrupt and Action, which I don't think it can do without specific timing rules that allow it, and (b) part 4 really just kind of puts the Nick attack in this quasi-quantum state where it's available to you unless you use it and then it's retroactively unavailable to you. For part (b) I think you couldn't use it because using it would violate it.

Note that if you don't subscribe to the notion that a BA can interrupt an Action without special timing rules in the BA you are choosing to take, this never comes up.

 How you rule (a) doesn't really matter (recent debate about this topic here a question about a nick combo I've been thinking to use)

If you choose to make the extra attack as a Bonus Action and don't use the Nick Mastery Property to shift it into your Attack action, then the Bonus Action is consumed. This means you can't use Nick that turn because you've already used the Light property's extra attack once during your turn.

EDIT: for clarity.

Quote from sabin76 >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

In terms of the "this" under Nick referring to a completely different set of text rather than the specific attack mentioned in the previous sentence that it would ordinarily refer to in the English language, consider what happens if you:

1. Attack Action: Light weapon #1
2. Bonus Action: Light property attack with Light weapon #2
3. Attack Action: Light Weapon #1
4. Attack Action: Nick/Light property attack with Light weapon #2

Even if you believe that Nick shuts down all Light property triggers for the rest of the turn rather than just the Nick ability itself, it can't perform that shutdown until you've used it (at which point it is too late to 'take back' that attack you've already made). For contrast, consider the ability Steady Aim that requires you not being moving. It's explicitly written to be unusable if you've already moved precisely to avoid this issue.

 

I was going to post this sequence earlier, but decided not to because (a) it requires you to also assume that a BA can inherently interrupt and Action, which I don't think it can do without specific timing rules that allow it, and (b) part 4 really just kind of puts the Nick attack in this quasi-quantum state where it's available to you unless you use it and then it's retroactively unavailable to you. For part (b) I think you couldn't use it because using it would violate it.

Note that if you don't subscribe to the notion that a BA can interrupt an Action without special timing rules in the BA you are choosing to take, this never comes up.

 It can, because of haste and action surge.

I just don't think it creates a problem with Nick's restriction.

I admit, because we've never got anything resembling an official ruling on the whole light weapon complex, that it's possible that they intended that Attack #1, Light BA, Attack #2 with Nick would be legitimate, but that sort of sequencing trap, where you can do the thing but only if you know the rules well enough do it in the right order, is bad design.

Just leaving here some threads about this same discussion in the subforum, in case anyone here or future visitors want to revisit explanations from other folks:

• 2024 PH: Confusion with Light Property and Nick Mastery Property 
• 2024 Two-Weapon Fighting With Dual Wielder and Mastery 
• Equip or Unequip a weapon - once per attack or once per Attack [Action]?
• Dual wield, Nick and light weapons.
• Confusion about extra attack with nick 
• New Two-Weapon Fight Rules - Rules & Game Mechanics
• Dual wielding two light weapons, one has Nick weapon mastery (2024 rules)
• Dual Wielder, Two-Weapon Fighting, and the Light weapon property (PHB 2024)
• Nick, Dual Wielding, and non-light weapons.
• A Question Re Combining Nick and Vex 
• Someone Explain Nick 
• 5e 2024 "Nick" weapon + Shadow blade combo 
• Two-Weapon Fighting v Two-Weapon Fighting Style v Dual Wielding
• Ranger Hunter lvl 5 4 attacks possible with PHB2024? 
• Can you use the Nick property to make 3 attacks over one turn?

Btw, one of them includes an example using Action Surge:

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from Paradox_Traveler >>

     RAW for both BA and Nick is once per turn, so unless you have a class or Species feature that allows  extra attacks for the attack action, the best one can accomplish is only 3 attacks even with DW.

      DW states one weapon has to be light, the other can be anything other than a two-handed weapon, and basically reuses the same wording as TWF from 2014. But thats the thing, you can’t use Nick twice, so your basically trying to use your BA twice, which by RAW is a no.

If you use a Nick Weapon, the extra attack no longer requires a bonus action. You are restricted to using one Bonus Action a turn.

I think I see a potential source of confusion. See if this clarifies things.

• Light gives you an extra attack.
  • If the Nick Mastery doesn't apply, you need to use a Bonus Action to make this attack and your Bonus Action is not available for other activities, such as the extra attack from Enhanced Dual Wielding.
  • If you are benefitting from Nick, this extra attack does not use a Bonus Action and it is available to use.
  • The once per round limit from Nick only applies to the extra attack from the Light Property and only that source of extra attacks.
  • Effectively the Light property with Nick reads like this:
    • "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action part of the same Attack action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You make this extra attack only once per turn.  For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."
• Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you an extra attack.
  • this extra attack always requires that you use a Bonus Action to make the attack.
  • In order to make this extra attack, you must use the Attack and attack with a Light weapon, but it does not use or change the extra attack from the Light weapon property. Notice how Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property..." and Enhanced Dual Wielding says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property...", Nick changes the behavior of the Light property, but Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you a separate source of an extra attack.
• Because Nick removes the Bonus Action requirement of the extra attack from the Light property, they can be combined.
  • A level 20 Fighter has 4 attacks per turn.
  • With a level 20 Fighter and the Nick Weapon Mastery, that becomes 5 attacks with an Attack action.
  • With a level 20 Fighter that has the Nick Mastery and using a Bonus Action for Enhanced Dual Wielding, that becomes 6 attacks per turn.
  • If the same Fighter uses an Action Surge, they can use an additional Attack action to get 4 more attacks (a total of 10) because Nick limited the extra attack from the Light weapon property to once per turn.

Does that help?

If the extra attack of the Light property wasn't limited to both

1. When you take the Attack action on your turn 
2. and attack with a Light weapon

Then it could be enabled with Extra Attack or Nick Mastery within itself.

It's effectively limited to 1/Action.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

If the extra attack of the Light property wasn't limited to both

1. When you take the Attack action on your turn 
2. and attack with a Light weapon

Then it could be enabled with Extra Attack or Nick Mastery within itself.

It's effectively limited to 1/Action.

This one-and-only-one trigger argument applies equally to Light and Dual Wielder (since they have the same verbiage). So if we take a standard Scimitar/Short Sword configuration, this means that the first attack you make during your Attack Action must be with a different weapon than you use for both Nick and Bonus Action.

This is itself a substantial change from the consensus appraisal of how dual wield works. Under the most common interpretation, a level 5 Ranger with the above combo can attack Short Sword (first attack), Short Sword (extra attack), Scimitar (Nick attack), Short Sword (Bonus attack). Under your interpretation, that last Short Sword attack is required to be a Scimitar attack instead.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

If the extra attack of the Light property wasn't limited to both

1. When you take the Attack action on your turn 
2. and attack with a Light weapon

Then it could be enabled with Extra Attack or Nick Mastery within itself.

It's effectively limited to 1/Action.

This one-and-only-one trigger argument applies equally to Light and Dual Wielder (since they have the same verbiage). So if we take a standard Scimitar/Short Sword configuration, this means that the first attack you make during your Attack Action must be with a different weapon than you use for both Nick and Bonus Action.

This is itself a substantial change from the consensus appraisal of how dual wield works. Under the most common interpretation, a level 5 Ranger with the above combo can attack Short Sword (first attack), Short Sword (extra attack), Scimitar (Nick attack), Short Sword (Bonus attack). Under your interpretation, that last Short Sword attack is required to be a Scimitar attack instead.

Both the extra attack of the Light property and the extra attack of Dual Wielder feat has to be made with a different weapon than the one you use when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon.

Both have been enabled as soon as the first Shortsword attack.

I don't think it's one and only trigger though, If you have Extra Attack, the second attack can be the one used to enable it but it's also a Shortsword in given attack sequence.

But if you have multiple instance, it's still 1/Action based on how they intended from Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook. 

The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action. Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

If the extra attack of the Light property wasn't limited to both

1. When you take the Attack action on your turn 
2. and attack with a Light weapon

Then it could be enabled with Extra Attack or Nick Mastery within itself.

It's effectively limited to 1/Action.

This one-and-only-one trigger argument applies equally to Light and Dual Wielder (since they have the same verbiage). So if we take a standard Scimitar/Short Sword configuration, this means that the first attack you make during your Attack Action must be with a different weapon than you use for both Nick and Bonus Action.

This is itself a substantial change from the consensus appraisal of how dual wield works. Under the most common interpretation, a level 5 Ranger with the above combo can attack Short Sword (first attack), Short Sword (extra attack), Scimitar (Nick attack), Short Sword (Bonus attack). Under your interpretation, that last Short Sword attack is required to be a Scimitar attack instead.

I don't see how that follows. If the ability can only activate once a turn (still disagree), then you ought to be able to choose what activates it. You've made three attacks with light weapons as part of your attack action. Any one of them ought to be eligible.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

If the extra attack of the Light property wasn't limited to both

1. When you take the Attack action on your turn 
2. and attack with a Light weapon

Then it could be enabled with Extra Attack or Nick Mastery within itself.

It's effectively limited to 1/Action.

This one-and-only-one trigger argument applies equally to Light and Dual Wielder (since they have the same verbiage). So if we take a standard Scimitar/Short Sword configuration, this means that the first attack you make during your Attack Action must be with a different weapon than you use for both Nick and Bonus Action.

This is itself a substantial change from the consensus appraisal of how dual wield works. Under the most common interpretation, a level 5 Ranger with the above combo can attack Short Sword (first attack), Short Sword (extra attack), Scimitar (Nick attack), Short Sword (Bonus attack). Under your interpretation, that last Short Sword attack is required to be a Scimitar attack instead.

I don't see how that follows. If the ability can only activate once a turn (still disagree), then you ought to be able to choose what activates it. You've made three attacks with light weapons as part of your attack action. Any one of them ought to be eligible.

The argument I'm responding to is that the trigger is singular - that it triggers the moment both conditions are satisfied and can only trigger once. To work the way you're suggesting, the text would need to be written in the past tense like: "if you attacked during your Attack Action with a Light weapon".

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

If the extra attack of the Light property wasn't limited to both

1. When you take the Attack action on your turn 
2. and attack with a Light weapon

Then it could be enabled with Extra Attack or Nick Mastery within itself.

It's effectively limited to 1/Action.

This one-and-only-one trigger argument applies equally to Light and Dual Wielder (since they have the same verbiage). So if we take a standard Scimitar/Short Sword configuration, this means that the first attack you make during your Attack Action must be with a different weapon than you use for both Nick and Bonus Action.

This is itself a substantial change from the consensus appraisal of how dual wield works. Under the most common interpretation, a level 5 Ranger with the above combo can attack Short Sword (first attack), Short Sword (extra attack), Scimitar (Nick attack), Short Sword (Bonus attack). Under your interpretation, that last Short Sword attack is required to be a Scimitar attack instead.

I don't see how that follows. If the ability can only activate once a turn (still disagree), then you ought to be able to choose what activates it. You've made three attacks with light weapons as part of your attack action. Any one of them ought to be eligible.

The argument I'm responding to is that the trigger is singular - that it triggers the moment both conditions are satisfied and can only trigger once. To work the way you're suggesting, the text would need to be written in the past tense like: "if you attacked during your Attack Action with a Light weapon".

 No, it just doesn't have the "can only trigger once" idea, because there's nothing that says it can only trigger once. In the rule model I'm working with, it triggers every time the conditions are fulfilled (attacking with a light weapon during the attack action). It's constrained by the requirement to use a resource to activate the ability it grants on triggering. (And by Nick.)

Again, this is an extremely common construct in the 5e rules (For instance, the free weapon interactions of the attack action), and those don't have an inherent once-only restriction to triggering, so I don't see why this one would without an explicit piece of text saying so. It has a practical restriction, but that doesn't stop you from picking which activation you use, giving you more flexibility in which weapon you take the BA/Nick/DW attacks with.

There's nothing in the Light property directly saying it can only trigger once, it instead say how it can trigger and what limit it practically thereafter;

• When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
• You can’t take more than one Bonus Action on a turn.
• With Nick Mastery You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

For example as a Level 20 Fighter When you take the Attack action on your turn and and attack 4 times with a Light weapon, effectively;

1. you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon.
2. you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon.
3. you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon.
4. you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon.

Making one extra attack of the Light property eat up your Bonus Action, or not with Nick Mastery but is capped when done as part of the Attack action instead of a Bonus Action. One way or another, the 3 others are wasted because you made one extra attack of the Light property already when taking this Attack action.

On this turn, in order to be able to do make another extra attack of the Light property, you will need to be able to again take the Attack action on your turn and and attack with a Light weapon, such as Action Surge or Haste for example. Or be able to take more than one Bonus Action if Nick Mastery didn't cap it already.

This is at least how i've always understood it to work.

Equipping and Unequipping Weapons featturefrom the Attack action is not worded the exact same way than Light is, hence why they aren't as permissive; 1/attack vs 1/Action

If the Light property said ""You can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn when you make an attack as part of Attack action" it would be different.

Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.

This is one where it's pretty easy to read either way. The wording (with Nick, especially) is too precious, and you read it as:
1) You can only do the Light extra attack once per turn, whether it be Bonus Action or part of the Attack Action.
2) You can only use Nick once.

And yes, if #2 is the right reading, you can get Attack / Nick Attack / Bonus Action Attack without Dual Wielder.

Which is, probably, the best argument that it's #1, because that would make Dual Wielder weak in comparison. Having all 3 of Light/Nick/DW required to get both extra attacks is what makes all 3 of those feel fairly balanced against each other. Even if it is really ideosyncratic design.