So I've been pondering this, and I've seen some info about Nick interacting with Shadow blade as the TWF attack.
For example, taking the Attack Action, you swing a dagger with the mastery active, and this could trigger the TWF Shadow blade attack within the attack action (I assume this means you can't use TWF as a bonus action anymore, which means it's open for a different option.) I can see this being a wild move to add to the bladesong extra attack, since it _is_ the Attack Action, and you could booming blade with a dagger, trigger nick, but this leaves me to ponder something.
Regardless as to whether or not you're doing bladesong shenanigans, and are, for example, running eldritch knight and have access to Shadow blade, is the following combo within RAW?
ATTACK ACTION, EXTRA ATTACK
Right hand Dagger, nick trigger lefthand Shadow blade, second attack ALSO left hand shadow blade? Or would you be RAW unable to have any attacks following the nick trigger be that shadow blade?
So I've been pondering this, and I've seen some info about Nick interacting with Shadow blade as the TWF attack.
For example, taking the Attack Action, you swing a dagger with the mastery active, and this could trigger the TWF Shadow blade attack within the attack action (I assume this means you can't use TWF as a bonus action anymore, which means it's open for a different option.) I can see this being a wild move to add to the bladesong extra attack, since it _is_ the Attack Action, and you could booming blade with a dagger, trigger nick, but this leaves me to ponder something.
Regardless as to whether or not you're doing bladesong shenanigans, and are, for example, running eldritch knight and have access to Shadow blade, is the following combo within RAW?
ATTACK ACTION, EXTRA ATTACK
Right hand Dagger, nick trigger lefthand Shadow blade, second attack ALSO left hand shadow blade? Or would you be RAW unable to have any attacks following the nick trigger be that shadow blade?
The Nick property just says that you can only make its extra attack once per turn. It doesn't place any restrictions on what else you can do with that weapon on that turn. If you have some other means of making yet another attack as part of that Attack action (including the Extra Attack feature from the Fighter class or from the Bladesinging subclass) you can make that attack with whichever weapon you like.
However, a Bladesinger Wizard does not have access to any weapon mastery properties, so they wouldn't be able to use the Nick property. They would need to have access to it from some other source, like another class or the 2024 Weapon Master feat. The Eldritch Knight example would be fine, since the Fighter class provides access to several weapon mastery properties.
Maybe I'm missing something from the OP, but just a couple of comments:
Shadow Blade doesn't have any Mastery Property
Debatable at the moment, but the scenario changes or becomes invalid if you consider Nick to be activated when you attack with that weapon for the Light additional attack.
If you’re wielding a weapon and have learned its mastery property, you’ll be able to use that mastery property every turn when you make an attack with the weapon.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
Maybe I'm missing something from the OP, but just a couple of comments:
Shadow Blade doesn't have any Mastery Property
Debatable at the moment, but the scenario changes or becomes invalid if you consider Nick to be activated when you attack with that weapon for the Light additional attack.
If you’re wielding a weapon and have learned its mastery property, you’ll be able to use that mastery property every turn when you make an attack with the weapon.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
The intention is to have a build that acquires the mastery property, either by class feature (fighter) or feat (edit: weapon master). Shadow blade has no such mastery trait, correct.
So the proposed idea is to take the attack action, Attack with a weapon that you have acquired the Nick mastery for for the first hit, trigger a Shadow blade swing to go with that first hit, (whose TWF position is bumped up away from bonus action) and still use shadow blade for any following Extra Attacks you have with that Attack Action. This would be a considerable boon to higher level multi classed or feat enhanced Bladesinger's or Eldritch Knights, because part of their Extra Attack Attack action let's them weapon cantrip for one of their swings, with a weapon whose mastery feature triggers "on an attack roll with that weapon using the Attack Action."
The intention is to have a build that acquires the mastery property, either by class feature (fighter) or feat (skill master). Shadow blade has no such mastery trait, correct.
So the proposed idea is to take the attack action, Attack with a weapon that you have acquired the Nick mastery for for the first hit, trigger a Shadow blade swing to go with that first hit, (whose TWF position is bumped up away from bonus action) and still use shadow blade for any following Extra Attacks you have with that Attack Action. This would be a considerable boon to higher level multi classed or feat enhanced Bladesinger's or Eldritch Knights, because part of their Extra Attack Attack action let's them weapon cantrip for one of their swings, with a weapon whose mastery feature triggers "on an attack roll with that weapon using the Attack Action."
Shadow Blade doesn't have any weapon masteries so the order of operations with Nick doesn't really matter. Just ask the GM/decide as the GM and attack once with the Shadow Blade and once with the Dagger/Light Hammer/Sickle/Scimitar as part of the Attack action. Any additional attacks (Extra Attacks, Dual Wielding, etc) can use the Shadow Blade (unless you have a particularly awesome dagger).
If you want to use a weapon cantrip, do note the costly material requirements for Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, and True Strike. These can't be used with the Shadow Blade and I don't think you can substitute the extra attack from Light for one of these spells so you'll have to attack with the Dagger for the spell.
Happy stabbing.
Edit: I forgot True Strike had a costly weapon component too.
BoomingBlade with (insert Nick weapon here), unlock condition for offhand light weapon to be moved into the Attack Action, use that offhand attack option (shadow blade in this case), and also use that shadow blade for any additional attacks allowed within the Extra attack parameters
This assumes the extra attack has the "substitute one of your attacks with a cantrip" parameters.
Would having used the shadow blade for that moved TWF slot mean that those additional attacks within Extra attack need to be swung with the Nick weapon that was part of the Booming Blade cantrip?
BoomingBlade with (insert Nick weapon here), unlock condition for offhand light weapon to be moved into the Attack Action, use that offhand attack option (shadow blade in this case), and also use that shadow blade for any additional attacks allowed within the Extra attack parameters
It is not clear that you need to attack with the Nick weapon during the attack action or you that you need to use it for the extra attack from the Light property. I think the majority opinion here is that it can be used for either. Consult with your table to avoid surprises.
Would having used the shadow blade for that moved TWF slot mean that those additional attacks within Extra attack need to be swung with the Nick weapon that was part of the Booming Blade cantrip?
I don't know what you mean by "that moved TWF slot". The Two Weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to add your attribute modifier. Dual Wielder allows you to attack with a second weapon that does not have the two-handed property as a bonus action. Nick does not change the bonus action requirement of Enhanced Dual Wielder from the Dual Wielder feat.
If you use your Nick weapon during the Attack action, you can use a bonus action to attack with the Shadow Blade. Since Nick moves the extra Attack from Light to within the Attack action, technically it should be eligible allow the bonus action from Dual Wielder. Check with your table.
BoomingBlade with (insert Nick weapon here), unlock condition for offhand light weapon to be moved into the Attack Action, use that offhand attack option (shadow blade in this case), and also use that shadow blade for any additional attacks allowed within the Extra attack parameters
It is not clear that you need to attack with the Nick weapon during the attack action or you that you need to use it for the extra attack from the Light property. I think the majority opinion here is that it can be used for either. Consult with your table to avoid surprises.
Would having used the shadow blade for that moved TWF slot mean that those additional attacks within Extra attack need to be swung with the Nick weapon that was part of the Booming Blade cantrip?
I don't know what you mean by "that moved TWF slot". The Two Weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to add your attribute modifier. Dual Wielder allows you to attack with a second weapon that does not have the two-handed property as a bonus action. Nick does not change the bonus action requirement of Enhanced Dual Wielder from the Dual Wielder feat.
If you use your Nick weapon during the Attack action, you can use a bonus action to attack with the Shadow Blade. Since Nick moves the extra Attack from Light to within the Attack action, technically it should be eligible allow the bonus action from Dual Wielder. Check with your table.
By "TWF slot," I'm referring to the "extra attack provided by attacking with a weapon with the light property by attacking with a different weapon of the light property" because it really frustrates me how the 2024 book goes out of its way to make that wording unwieldy. It's 2014's Two Weapon Fighting mechanic worded bad as far as I can tell.
The problem is Nick turns two weapon fighting into a Multi-Attack action, and basically removes the Light Weapon bonus action choice of an extra attack.
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
Considering that Shadow Blade has to be a Simple Melee Weapon, and only three simple melee weapons are considered light and have nick as a mastery, a dagger being the closest match to the weapon Shadow Blade creates given the weapon properties granted, then wouldn’t someone who can use weapon mastery use a Shadow Blade Dagger weapon and still use the Nick mastery?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The problem is Nick turns two weapon fighting into a Multi-Attack action, and basically removes the Light Weapon bonus action choice of an extra attack.
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
Considering that Shadow Blade has to be a Simple Melee Weapon, and only three simple melee weapons are considered light and have nick as a mastery, a dagger being the closest match to the weapon Shadow Blade creates given the weapon properties granted, then wouldn’t someone who can use weapon mastery use a Shadow Blade Dagger weapon and still use the Nick mastery?
Shadow blade doesn't necessarily let you create a weapon to particular stats of your choice outside of how you flavor it's appearance. It creates a 2d8+Dex weapon with the light, thrown, and finesse properties. The only part of that which makes it relevant to discussion is that it has the Light property, meaning for the purpose of the Nick Mastery weapon, it qualifies as a "separate Light weapon".
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
That is not stated anywhere. If it is clarified later, I would expect that Nick needs to be used in the extra attack.
Considering that Shadow Blade has to be a Simple Melee Weapon, and only three simple melee weapons are considered light and have nick as a mastery, a dagger being the closest match to the weapon Shadow Blade creates given the weapon properties granted, then wouldn’t someone who can use weapon mastery use a Shadow Blade Dagger weapon and still use the Nick mastery?
Shadow Blade creates a Shadow Blade that is a Simple Weapon with specified properties. It does not create a dagger, light hammer, or sickle. The Shadow Blade does not have any mastery properties.
The problem is Nick turns two weapon fighting into a Multi-Attack action, and basically removes the Light Weapon bonus action choice of an extra attack.
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
Considering that Shadow Blade has to be a Simple Melee Weapon, and only three simple melee weapons are considered light and have nick as a mastery, a dagger being the closest match to the weapon Shadow Blade creates given the weapon properties granted, then wouldn’t someone who can use weapon mastery use a Shadow Blade Dagger weapon and still use the Nick mastery?
Shadow blade doesn't necessarily let you create a weapon to particular stats of your choice outside of how you flavor it's appearance. It creates a 2d8+Dex weapon with the light, thrown, and finesse properties. The only part of that which makes it relevant to discussion is that it has the Light property, meaning for the purpose of the Nick Mastery weapon, it qualifies as a "separate Light weapon".
Text from Shadow Blade( XGtE ):
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you a re proficient. … and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60).
The list of RAW Simple Melee Weapons that have the same relative weapon properties are the aforementioned Dagger, Light Mace, and Sickle ( that according to 2024 also has the Nick Mastery )
[ Note: A Scimitar is considered a Martial Melee Weapon not a Simple Melee Weapon, but because Shadow Blade auto grants proficiency with the conjuring weapon, one could debate the spell turns a Scimitar into a Simple Melee Weapon for purposes of allowing the greater damage.]
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
That is not stated anywhere. If it is clarified later, I would expect that Nick needs to be used in the extra attack.
The Article aforementioned and cited actually does state that using Nick requires the ability to use a bonus action. If you can’t use bonus actions, then nick can’t be triggered to Multi-attack. That means you have to choose to ether multi-attack single action or single attack and bonus action dual wield nick granting 3 attacks before any class or creature ability grants extra attacks.
Raw states you only have the ability to use one and only one use of a bonus action, and even though nick frees the bonus action for other uses, TWF uses the bonus action to allow for a second attack with a different weapon.
So, action sequences like nick weapon first, trigger multiattack, means bonus action is preserved for Dual wielding bonus action,
or
attack action non nick weapon, bonus action attack ( bonus action used ) and nick mastery unable to be used.( Nick requires the ability to use a bonus action, if you don’t have the ability to use a bonus action ( Raw only one BA per turn, choose wisely, BA used to make another attack[ TWF ]), then you can’t use the nick ability as you no longer have the ability to use bonus actions. ( remember BA was used in TWF to make an offhand attack with a different weapon, so BA is no longer available for nick to transfer.)
The Nick Mastery relies on the ability to be able to use a bonus action when TWF, if you use a bonus action before using TWF or Nick the the required bonus action for ether is unavailable for use.
It’s a massive headache for little gain RAW wise, and uses terms that can be easily contradicted by other RAW based rules.
It would have been better to just have said, when using nick make a second attack with a second light weapon as part of the attack, you use this once per turn. ( and just completely left TWF bonus action extra attack out of the wording)
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
This topic isn't about using the bonus action anymore, that Light weapon attack is bumped into the Attack action. And apparently shadow blade is causing confusion too, so let's try something much simpler in scale. You have a Dagger, and have the Nick Mastery for it in one hand, and you have a short sword in the other hand, maybe you even have the Vex mastery learned for it.
You have the Extra attack feature, letting you make two weapon attacks, attack A, and attack B, when you take the Attack Action.
What I'm trying to deduce is if when you take the attack action, you swing "attack A" with the weapon with the Nick mastery, and the Mastery allows you to make the "Light weapon property attack" using the short sword (we'll call B2) within that attack action, maybe immediately after "attack A".
Do the rules allow you to use that short sword again for "attack B", or, do the rules suggest that you are meant to use the Dagger for "attack B".
The bonus action is removed from the equation for this topic because Nick relocates when that extra Light weapon property attack weapon can occur.
So I've been pondering this, and I've seen some info about Nick interacting with Shadow blade as the TWF attack.
For example, taking the Attack Action, you swing a dagger with the mastery active, and this could trigger the TWF Shadow blade attack within the attack action (I assume this means you can't use TWF as a bonus action anymore, which means it's open for a different option.) I can see this being a wild move to add to the bladesong extra attack, since it _is_ the Attack Action, and you could booming blade with a dagger, trigger nick, but this leaves me to ponder something.
Regardless as to whether or not you're doing bladesong shenanigans, and are, for example, running eldritch knight and have access to Shadow blade, is the following combo within RAW?
ATTACK ACTION, EXTRA ATTACK
Right hand Dagger, nick trigger lefthand Shadow blade, second attack ALSO left hand shadow blade? Or would you be RAW unable to have any attacks following the nick trigger be that shadow blade?
No, this isn't legal.
The order in which you do things matters. Making your first attack with a Dagger, or any other weapon with the Nick mastery, does not let you move the next attack to the Attack action. This is because Nick mastery only lets you move that specific attack to the Attack action. You could cast Shadow Blade and attack with it, which would then allow a Bonus Action attack with another weapon with the Light property. And you can move this additional to the Attack action via the Nick mastery. But that's also your Bonus Action for the first turn.
You could do...
Bonus Action (cast Shadow Blade), Attack action (Shadow Blade, weapon with Nick mastery, Extra Attack if available)
Light property: "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative"
Nick Mastery: "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
You are literally moving the Light weapon extra attack from bonus action, to the Attack Action
Edit: Furthermore, the mastery properties are things you unlock for specific weapons. You don't learn the Nick mastery and apply it to every Light weapon, you learn the Mastery for a Specific Weapons. In the aforementioned example case, I refer to attacking with a Dagger where you learned the Nick Mastery for Daggers. Shadow Blade does not have mastery properties, the only way it would tie into the equation is as the "second weapon with the light property in your other hand"
Okay so I think I'm seeing what's throwing me off.
I was under the impression that making an attack with the Nick weapon enabled the offhand attack, but it's actually the reverse, apparently.
The sequence for Nick apparently works as follows,
Attack Action, swing with (insert light weapon here) in main hand, the Nick weapon mastery activates on your Offhand, allowing you to make your "offhand attack" within your Attack Action instead of your bonus action. And if you have an Extra attack feature in your Attacks action, any additional attacks can be with whatever weapon on you.
The order in which the attacks are made still matters, so no putting the cart before the horse. Attacking first with a Dagger doesn't mean you get to count that attack as the Bonus Action attack you move to the Attack action because you're using the Dagger to initiate the action in the first place.
Attacking with Shadow Blade can happen at any point during the Attack. It's a Simple weapon with the Finesse, Light, and Thrown properties. It meets the requirement to trigger two-weapon fighting; weapon mastery not necessary. You cast it with your Bonus Action so you can attack with it during your Attack action, and it's only because you attack with it that you can move a subsequent attack with a Light weapon that also has the Nick mastery (Dagger, Light Hammer, Sickle, or Scimitar) to the Attack action.
Okay so I think I'm seeing what's throwing me off.
I was under the impression that making an attack with the Nick weapon enabled the offhand attack, but it's actually the reverse, apparently.
The sequence for Nick apparently works as follows,
Attack Action, swing with (insert light weapon here) in main hand, the Nick weapon mastery activates on your Offhand, allowing you to make your "offhand attack" within your Attack Action instead of your bonus action. And if you have an Extra attack feature in your Attacks action, any additional attacks can be with whatever weapon on you.
Apart form Jounichi's explanation, if it's useful for you, in one of the DDB threads about Nick (Dual wield, Nick and light weapons), there's a good example combining Light, Nick and Dual Wielder Feat:
You use your first attack and the Light property is triggered, giving you an extra attack as a bonus action
You use your second weapon with Nick to consume the extra attack but without consuming the bonus action
You use your level 5 Extra Attack feature to attack with the Light weapon again
You want to now use your Bonus action because you think your 3rd attack triggered Light again. At that point your DM will point to Nick and say that Nick clarifies that your Light property has been modified to only once per turn. Alternatively: You have the Dual Wielder Feat and explain to your DM that the Dual Wielder Feat gives you another source of a bonus action attack that is separate from Light and Nick. Yay, thanks to the feat you get a 4th attack!
This is all correct, but it should be made clear that you don't need the extra attack in step 3 to use the Dual Wielder bonus action attack.
Once you make the attack in step 1, you have two available bonus action attacks: one from Light, and one from DW. You could normally only take advantage of one, but Nick lets you use the Light additional attack without consuming the bonus action, so it's available for the DW attack.
(And you still shouldn't need to be a pedantic rules nerd to figure out how two-weapon fighting works. This is not my number 1 gripe about the 2024 combat rules, but it's probably my #1 new gripe.)
Actually the words used in the Light property, Nick Mastery, and Dual Wielding Feat : “extra attack” should be instead “additional attack”, and would have made the intention clearer.
By the way, how can you gain additional uses of bonus actions? in 2014 Action Surge had wording that granted additional action and bonus action if you didn’t have the ability to take a BA, but that wording was removed for various reasons. So how can you use a bonus action to TWF and a bonus action in Dual Wielding Feat? ( The rules for Bouns Actions still apply, for none of the aforementioned features actually alter the BA rules, and Nick only changes the TWF economy not the actual BA rules. )
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
[...] By the way, how can you gain additional uses of bonus actions? in 2014 Action Surge had wording that granted additional action and bonus action if you didn’t have the ability to take a BA, but that wording was removed for various reasons. So how can you use a bonus action to TWF and a bonus action in Dual Wielding Feat? ( The rules for Bouns Actions still apply, for none of the aforementioned features actually alter the BA rules, and Nick only changes the TWF economy not the actual BA rules. )
Let me take Advantage of something that was originally said by jl8e in the previous quoted text:
[...] Once you make the attack in step 1, you have two available bonus action attacks: one from Light, and one from DW. You could normally only take advantage of one, but Nick lets you use the Light additional attack without consuming the bonus action, so it's available for the DW attack. [...]
So I've been pondering this, and I've seen some info about Nick interacting with Shadow blade as the TWF attack.
For example, taking the Attack Action, you swing a dagger with the mastery active, and this could trigger the TWF Shadow blade attack within the attack action (I assume this means you can't use TWF as a bonus action anymore, which means it's open for a different option.) I can see this being a wild move to add to the bladesong extra attack, since it _is_ the Attack Action, and you could booming blade with a dagger, trigger nick, but this leaves me to ponder something.
Regardless as to whether or not you're doing bladesong shenanigans, and are, for example, running eldritch knight and have access to Shadow blade, is the following combo within RAW?
ATTACK ACTION, EXTRA ATTACK
Right hand Dagger, nick trigger lefthand Shadow blade, second attack ALSO left hand shadow blade? Or would you be RAW unable to have any attacks following the nick trigger be that shadow blade?
The Nick property just says that you can only make its extra attack once per turn. It doesn't place any restrictions on what else you can do with that weapon on that turn. If you have some other means of making yet another attack as part of that Attack action (including the Extra Attack feature from the Fighter class or from the Bladesinging subclass) you can make that attack with whichever weapon you like.
However, a Bladesinger Wizard does not have access to any weapon mastery properties, so they wouldn't be able to use the Nick property. They would need to have access to it from some other source, like another class or the 2024 Weapon Master feat. The Eldritch Knight example would be fine, since the Fighter class provides access to several weapon mastery properties.
pronouns: he/she/they
Maybe I'm missing something from the OP, but just a couple of comments:
IMO the intent was explained in the next article, along with an example using two weapons: Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook.
The intention is to have a build that acquires the mastery property, either by class feature (fighter) or feat (edit: weapon master). Shadow blade has no such mastery trait, correct.
So the proposed idea is to take the attack action, Attack with a weapon that you have acquired the Nick mastery for for the first hit, trigger a Shadow blade swing to go with that first hit, (whose TWF position is bumped up away from bonus action) and still use shadow blade for any following Extra Attacks you have with that Attack Action. This would be a considerable boon to higher level multi classed or feat enhanced Bladesinger's or Eldritch Knights, because part of their Extra Attack Attack action let's them weapon cantrip for one of their swings, with a weapon whose mastery feature triggers "on an attack roll with that weapon using the Attack Action."
Shadow Blade doesn't have any weapon masteries so the order of operations with Nick doesn't really matter. Just ask the GM/decide as the GM and attack once with the Shadow Blade and once with the Dagger/Light Hammer/Sickle/Scimitar as part of the Attack action. Any additional attacks (Extra Attacks, Dual Wielding, etc) can use the Shadow Blade (unless you have a particularly awesome dagger).
If you want to use a weapon cantrip, do note the costly material requirements for Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, and True Strike. These can't be used with the Shadow Blade and I don't think you can substitute the extra attack from Light for one of these spells so you'll have to attack with the Dagger for the spell.
Happy stabbing.
Edit: I forgot True Strike had a costly weapon component too.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
To reiterate, the proposed scenario would be
BoomingBlade with (insert Nick weapon here), unlock condition for offhand light weapon to be moved into the Attack Action, use that offhand attack option (shadow blade in this case), and also use that shadow blade for any additional attacks allowed within the Extra attack parameters
This assumes the extra attack has the "substitute one of your attacks with a cantrip" parameters.
Would having used the shadow blade for that moved TWF slot mean that those additional attacks within Extra attack need to be swung with the Nick weapon that was part of the Booming Blade cantrip?
It is not clear that you need to attack with the Nick weapon during the attack action or you that you need to use it for the extra attack from the Light property. I think the majority opinion here is that it can be used for either. Consult with your table to avoid surprises.
I don't know what you mean by "that moved TWF slot". The Two Weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to add your attribute modifier. Dual Wielder allows you to attack with a second weapon that does not have the two-handed property as a bonus action. Nick does not change the bonus action requirement of Enhanced Dual Wielder from the Dual Wielder feat.
If you use your Nick weapon during the Attack action, you can use a bonus action to attack with the Shadow Blade. Since Nick moves the extra Attack from Light to within the Attack action, technically it should be eligible allow the bonus action from Dual Wielder. Check with your table.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
By "TWF slot," I'm referring to the "extra attack provided by attacking with a weapon with the light property by attacking with a different weapon of the light property" because it really frustrates me how the 2024 book goes out of its way to make that wording unwieldy. It's 2014's Two Weapon Fighting mechanic worded bad as far as I can tell.
The problem is Nick turns two weapon fighting into a Multi-Attack action, and basically removes the Light Weapon bonus action choice of an extra attack.
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
Considering that Shadow Blade has to be a Simple Melee Weapon, and only three simple melee weapons are considered light and have nick as a mastery, a dagger being the closest match to the weapon Shadow Blade creates given the weapon properties granted, then wouldn’t someone who can use weapon mastery use a Shadow Blade Dagger weapon and still use the Nick mastery?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Shadow blade doesn't necessarily let you create a weapon to particular stats of your choice outside of how you flavor it's appearance. It creates a 2d8+Dex weapon with the light, thrown, and finesse properties. The only part of that which makes it relevant to discussion is that it has the Light property, meaning for the purpose of the Nick Mastery weapon, it qualifies as a "separate Light weapon".
That is not stated anywhere. If it is clarified later, I would expect that Nick needs to be used in the extra attack.
Shadow Blade creates a Shadow Blade that is a Simple Weapon with specified properties. It does not create a dagger, light hammer, or sickle. The Shadow Blade does not have any mastery properties.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Text from Shadow Blade( XGtE ):
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you a re proficient. … and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60).
The list of RAW Simple Melee Weapons that have the same relative weapon properties are the aforementioned Dagger, Light Mace, and Sickle ( that according to 2024 also has the Nick Mastery )
[ Note: A Scimitar is considered a Martial Melee Weapon not a Simple Melee Weapon, but because Shadow Blade auto grants proficiency with the conjuring weapon, one could debate the spell turns a Scimitar into a Simple Melee Weapon for purposes of allowing the greater damage.]
The Article aforementioned and cited actually does state that using Nick requires the ability to use a bonus action. If you can’t use bonus actions, then nick can’t be triggered to Multi-attack. That means you have to choose to ether multi-attack single action or single attack and bonus action dual wield nick granting 3 attacks before any class or creature ability grants extra attacks.
Raw states you only have the ability to use one and only one use of a bonus action, and even though nick frees the bonus action for other uses, TWF uses the bonus action to allow for a second attack with a different weapon.
So, action sequences like nick weapon first, trigger multiattack, means bonus action is preserved for Dual wielding bonus action,
or
attack action non nick weapon, bonus action attack ( bonus action used ) and nick mastery unable to be used.( Nick requires the ability to use a bonus action, if you don’t have the ability to use a bonus action ( Raw only one BA per turn, choose wisely, BA used to make another attack[ TWF ]), then you can’t use the nick ability as you no longer have the ability to use bonus actions. ( remember BA was used in TWF to make an offhand attack with a different weapon, so BA is no longer available for nick to transfer.)
The Nick Mastery relies on the ability to be able to use a bonus action when TWF, if you use a bonus action before using TWF or Nick the the required bonus action for ether is unavailable for use.
It’s a massive headache for little gain RAW wise, and uses terms that can be easily contradicted by other RAW based rules.
It would have been better to just have said, when using nick make a second attack with a second light weapon as part of the attack, you use this once per turn. ( and just completely left TWF bonus action extra attack out of the wording)
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
This topic isn't about using the bonus action anymore, that Light weapon attack is bumped into the Attack action. And apparently shadow blade is causing confusion too, so let's try something much simpler in scale. You have a Dagger, and have the Nick Mastery for it in one hand, and you have a short sword in the other hand, maybe you even have the Vex mastery learned for it.
You have the Extra attack feature, letting you make two weapon attacks, attack A, and attack B, when you take the Attack Action.
What I'm trying to deduce is if when you take the attack action, you swing "attack A" with the weapon with the Nick mastery, and the Mastery allows you to make the "Light weapon property attack" using the short sword (we'll call B2) within that attack action, maybe immediately after "attack A".
Do the rules allow you to use that short sword again for "attack B", or, do the rules suggest that you are meant to use the Dagger for "attack B".
The bonus action is removed from the equation for this topic because Nick relocates when that extra Light weapon property attack weapon can occur.
No, this isn't legal.
The order in which you do things matters. Making your first attack with a Dagger, or any other weapon with the Nick mastery, does not let you move the next attack to the Attack action. This is because Nick mastery only lets you move that specific attack to the Attack action. You could cast Shadow Blade and attack with it, which would then allow a Bonus Action attack with another weapon with the Light property. And you can move this additional to the Attack action via the Nick mastery. But that's also your Bonus Action for the first turn.
You could do...
Bonus Action (cast Shadow Blade), Attack action (Shadow Blade, weapon with Nick mastery, Extra Attack if available)
Light property: "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative"
Nick Mastery: "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
You are literally moving the Light weapon extra attack from bonus action, to the Attack Action
Edit: Furthermore, the mastery properties are things you unlock for specific weapons. You don't learn the Nick mastery and apply it to every Light weapon, you learn the Mastery for a Specific Weapons. In the aforementioned example case, I refer to attacking with a Dagger where you learned the Nick Mastery for Daggers. Shadow Blade does not have mastery properties, the only way it would tie into the equation is as the "second weapon with the light property in your other hand"
Okay so I think I'm seeing what's throwing me off.
I was under the impression that making an attack with the Nick weapon enabled the offhand attack, but it's actually the reverse, apparently.
The sequence for Nick apparently works as follows,
Attack Action, swing with (insert light weapon here) in main hand, the Nick weapon mastery activates on your Offhand, allowing you to make your "offhand attack" within your Attack Action instead of your bonus action. And if you have an Extra attack feature in your Attacks action, any additional attacks can be with whatever weapon on you.
The order in which the attacks are made still matters, so no putting the cart before the horse. Attacking first with a Dagger doesn't mean you get to count that attack as the Bonus Action attack you move to the Attack action because you're using the Dagger to initiate the action in the first place.
Attacking with Shadow Blade can happen at any point during the Attack. It's a Simple weapon with the Finesse, Light, and Thrown properties. It meets the requirement to trigger two-weapon fighting; weapon mastery not necessary. You cast it with your Bonus Action so you can attack with it during your Attack action, and it's only because you attack with it that you can move a subsequent attack with a Light weapon that also has the Nick mastery (Dagger, Light Hammer, Sickle, or Scimitar) to the Attack action.
Apart form Jounichi's explanation, if it's useful for you, in one of the DDB threads about Nick (Dual wield, Nick and light weapons), there's a good example combining Light, Nick and Dual Wielder Feat:
I also recommend this video:
Actually the words used in the Light property, Nick Mastery, and Dual Wielding Feat : “extra attack” should be instead “additional attack”, and would have made the intention clearer.
By the way, how can you gain additional uses of bonus actions?
in 2014 Action Surge had wording that granted additional action and bonus action if you didn’t have the ability to take a BA, but that wording was removed for various reasons. So how can you use a bonus action to TWF and a bonus action in Dual Wielding Feat? ( The rules for Bouns Actions still apply, for none of the aforementioned features actually alter the BA rules, and Nick only changes the TWF economy not the actual BA rules. )
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Let me take Advantage of something that was originally said by jl8e in the previous quoted text: