First of all i am sorry if there is an answer to what i am about to ask on the forum but after making a quick search didnt found anythig relative.
So the question is based on an encouter we recently had and an argument with one of our players.
The situation goes like this.
He is playing an shadow elf paladin with dual weapon one is scimitar the other is shortsword for the obvious reasons.
At the start of the encounter he is using as a bonus action his teleportation ability so he can move 30 ft closer to the target.
Then he moves another 30 ft so he can be in close combat.
He then starts to attack.
The argue was if he can do the extra attack using the light and nick combo without any bonus action left.
And thats the question.
If you dont have any bonus action left for the rest of your turn, and you attack someone using 2 weapons with light and nick prop,
does the nick triggers?
From RAW in order to activate nick you need to be able to make the extra attack granted by the light property.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
But if you dont have any bonus action left can you actually make the attack in order to activate nic?
Long answer: That is the whole point of the Nick Mastery, it removes the Bonus Action requirement to perform the extra attack of the light property, instead moving it to be part of the attack action. As long as one of his weapon masteries is Scimitar, it would work, Paladin can choose two weapon types for weapon masteries (at long rest), so I would assume the player choose Shortsword and Scimitar to benefit from that combo.
This question has come up a lot, but I'm not in a position (time-wise) to look those up right now. There are many threads, mostly related to having both Nick and Dual Wielder Feat.
But after reading again and again the rules it is clear that Nick is a triggered ability that activates when you make the extra attack of the light property.
The next logical step is to question if the extra attack of the light propery happens. The easy answer to this is that because of no bonus action can't happen so Nick isnt triggering.
So the question is does the attack activates and check if there is a bonus action and a trigger (Nick), or it doent activate because the bonus action dont permits it.
Nick Mastery removes any interaction with the Bonus Action, you can make the Light property attack irrelevant of if the Bonus Action is available or not when benefiting from the Nick Mastery property and Paladin is one of the classes that can benefit from Nick Mastery.
First of all i am sorry if there is an answer to what i am about to ask on the forum but after making a quick search didnt found anythig relative. [...]
There are some related threads to this question (see below), with examples and different scenarios.
You use your first attack and the Light property is triggered, giving you an extra attack as a bonus action
You use your second weapon with Nick to consume the extra attack but without consuming the bonus action
You use your level 5 Extra Attack feature to attack with the Light weapon again
You want to now use your Bonus action because you think your 3rd attack triggered Light again. At that point your DM will point to Nick and say that Nick clarifies that your Light property has been modified to only once per turn. Alternatively: You have the Dual Wielder Feat and explain to your DM that the Dual Wielder Feat gives you another source of a bonus action attack that is separate from Light and Nick. Yay, thanks to the feat you get a 4th attack!
This is all correct, but it should be made clear that you don't need the extra attack in step 3 to use the Dual Wielder bonus action attack.
Once you make the attack in step 1, you have two available bonus action attacks: one from Light, and one from DW. You could normally only take advantage of one, but Nick lets you use the Light additional attack without consuming the bonus action, so it's available for the DW attack.
(And you still shouldn't need to be a pedantic rules nerd to figure out how two-weapon fighting works. This is not my number 1 gripe about the 2024 combat rules, but it's probably my #1 new gripe.)
When you make the extra attack as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, it doesn't matter if you still can take one or not since it's not made as a Bonus Action anymore.
Nick activates, according the RAW, when you make the extra attack and not before right?
Then how can you do the light attack if you dont have a bonus action?
Nick in theory havn't applied yet to move the attack from bonus to normal
Is there something i am missing here?
Nick removes the need for the bonus action.
To use an analogy:
If you have $10 (a bonus action) you can have a burger. (an extra attack)
You have a coupon (Nick) that says you can have the burger for free.
Therefore, you can have a burger even though you're broke.
Returning to game rules, making an attack with a light property weapon gives you an ability you can activate later -- the bonus action attack.
The Nick property modifies that ability. It doesn't refund your bonus action or anything -- it changes the timing of the ability so that you don't need it.
The Light property doesn't require you to have a Bonus Action available to trigger it -- it just gives you another thing you can use your Bonus Action on later in that turn
Think of it like this: a Rogue with Cunning Action can Dash as a Bonus Action, but that doesn't stop them from Dashing normally if they've already used their BA. This works the same way. Light gives you an attack you can make as a Bonus Action, and Nick gives you another way to make that attack that doesn't use a Bonus Action
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Nick activates, according the RAW, when you make the extra attack and not before right?
Incorrect, Nick activates when you make your first attack with the Nick weapon. Activating Nick grants you the ability to make that second attack with another Light weapon as part of that initial attack rather than having to use a Bonus Action.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Nick activates, according the RAW, when you make the extra attack and not before right?
Incorrect, Nick activates when you make your first attack with the Nick weapon. Activating Nick grants you the ability to make that second attack with another Light weapon as part of that initial attack rather than having to use a Bonus Action.
These are both incorrect, Nick is always active as long as you are holding a Nick Weapon that you have the associated mastery for, there is no requirement for the Nick Weapon to make the initial attack. In no part of the Nick Mastery does it state it even needs an attack to be active, only that the attack action is taken, this is decidedly different to every other weapon mastery that states that the weapon in question has to be used for the attack.
Obviously the intention with Nick is that it could be used for either the initial attack, or the light weapon property attack, either should be considered valid for the weapon with the Nick Property to shift the Light weapon property extra attack from a bonus action to an extra attack of the attack action.
Nick activates, according the RAW, when you make the extra attack and not before right?
Incorrect, Nick activates when you make your first attack with the Nick weapon. Activating Nick grants you the ability to make that second attack with another Light weapon as part of that initial attack rather than having to use a Bonus Action.
These are both incorrect, Nick is always active as long as you are holding a Nick Weapon that you have the associated mastery for, there is no requirement for the Nick Weapon to make the initial attack. In no part of the Nick Mastery does it state it even needs an attack to be active, only that the attack action is taken, this is decidedly different to every other weapon mastery that states that the weapon in question has to be used for the attack.
The exact mechanics of the activation of Nick are not clearly defined in the rules. One cannot make definite statements about whether the Nick weapon must be used in the initial attack, the extra attack, or something else. It's a table ruling until we get errata or at least an official ruling.
It's also irrelevant to the question on hand. No matter how one activates Nick, one can do so even without a Bonus Action available.
Nick activates, according the RAW, when you make the extra attack and not before right?
Incorrect, Nick activates when you make your first attack with the Nick weapon. Activating Nick grants you the ability to make that second attack with another Light weapon as part of that initial attack rather than having to use a Bonus Action.
These are both incorrect, Nick is always active as long as you are holding a Nick Weapon that you have the associated mastery for, there is no requirement for the Nick Weapon to make the initial attack. In no part of the Nick Mastery does it state it even needs an attack to be active, only that the attack action is taken, this is decidedly different to every other weapon mastery that states that the weapon in question has to be used for the attack.
The exact mechanics of the activation of Nick are not clearly defined in the rules. One cannot make definite statements about whether the Nick weapon must be used in the initial attack, the extra attack, or something else. It's a table ruling until we get errata or at least an official ruling.
It's also irrelevant to the question on hand. No matter how one activates Nick, one can do so even without a Bonus Action available.
The mechanics of Nick are definitely odd, I'd still say it's intended to be one of the attacks, it seems odd to be able to benefit from a weapon that is not at all used. But else wise we are in agreement.
I believe the Nick weapon would need to be the first used, otherwise it's characteristics don't apply. Using the first weapon (with Nick) is what allows you to forgoe the bonus action while using the other Light weapon in the other hand.
If you've already used your bonus action, you could take the attack action with a light weapon having the Nick ability, which would then allow you to attack with the second Light weapon without needing the bonus action.
But if you've already used your bonus action, and try taking the attack action with a light weapon without the nick ability, there is no way to get that second attack in. The nick property wasn't on the weapon used in the attack action, so it doesn't apply.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I believe the Nick weapon would need to be the first used, otherwise it's characteristics don't apply. Using the first weapon (with Nick) is what allows you to forgoe the bonus action while using the other Light weapon in the other hand.
Can you point to anywhere in the rules where it says this? because I can assure you, it does not say this. People keep asserting that you need to attack with the nick weapon first but the Nick weapon property does not at any point specify that.
Here's another way of looking at it... (Yes I know you can't dual wield weapons that aren't light)
If the weapon in your left hand has the Topple trait (holding a quarterstaff let's say), and the weapon in your right hand does not (let's say it's a shortsword). You can't topple someone on the hit from the shortsword in your right hand, you can only use the properties that are on that weapon (not the other one).
Going back to my example: Bonus action already used, Light weapon in the primary hand; Light Nicking weapon in the off-hand; the nicking property never comes into play because that weapon wasn't used.
And I could use that same argument back... show me a rule that says you can use the property of the weapon you haven't swung?
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
And I could use that same argument back... show me a rule that says you can use the property of the weapon you haven't swung?
As I said above, there is no rule to say. They forgot to put it in, probably due to the designers overlooking the thing that they all knew wasn't ever actually stated in the text. This is an easy mistake to make, especially if you're rewriting things at the end of a long process, and the general principle was in the text at some point.
It's fine to have your own personal interpretation, but the rules do not support it over other reasonable interpretations. I personally think R3sistance's interpretation is sketchy, buy there's nothing I can point to to conclusively say it's wrong. I don't agree with your interpretation, but again, it's not wrong. (Nor is it right.)
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Hello fellow players and Dm's.
First of all i am sorry if there is an answer to what i am about to ask on the forum but after making a quick search didnt found anythig relative.
So the question is based on an encouter we recently had and an argument with one of our players.
The situation goes like this.
He is playing an shadow elf paladin with dual weapon one is scimitar the other is shortsword for the obvious reasons.
At the start of the encounter he is using as a bonus action his teleportation ability so he can move 30 ft closer to the target.
Then he moves another 30 ft so he can be in close combat.
He then starts to attack.
The argue was if he can do the extra attack using the light and nick combo without any bonus action left.
And thats the question.
If you dont have any bonus action left for the rest of your turn, and you attack someone using 2 weapons with light and nick prop,
does the nick triggers?
From RAW in order to activate nick you need to be able to make the extra attack granted by the light property.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
But if you dont have any bonus action left can you actually make the attack in order to activate nic?
Thanks in advance for any answers
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: That is the whole point of the Nick Mastery, it removes the Bonus Action requirement to perform the extra attack of the light property, instead moving it to be part of the attack action. As long as one of his weapon masteries is Scimitar, it would work, Paladin can choose two weapon types for weapon masteries (at long rest), so I would assume the player choose Shortsword and Scimitar to benefit from that combo.
This question has come up a lot, but I'm not in a position (time-wise) to look those up right now. There are many threads, mostly related to having both Nick and Dual Wielder Feat.
Yeah i had the same thought.
But after reading again and again the rules it is clear that Nick is a triggered ability that activates when you make the extra attack of the light property.
The next logical step is to question if the extra attack of the light propery happens. The easy answer to this is that because of no bonus action can't happen so Nick isnt triggering.
So the question is does the attack activates and check if there is a bonus action and a trigger (Nick), or it doent activate because the bonus action dont permits it.
Nick Mastery removes any interaction with the Bonus Action, you can make the Light property attack irrelevant of if the Bonus Action is available or not when benefiting from the Nick Mastery property and Paladin is one of the classes that can benefit from Nick Mastery.
Nick makes it so you don't need a Bonus Action to get the Light Property Attack.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
There are some related threads to this question (see below), with examples and different scenarios.
In one of the threads (Dual wield, Nick and light weapons), there's an explanation that I think is pretty good:
I also recommend this video to you:
---
I agree to both of you.
But still dont understand something.
Nick activates, according the RAW, when you make the extra attack and not before right?
Then how can you do the light attack if you dont have a bonus action?
Nick in theory havn't applied yet to move the attack from bonus to normal
Is there something i am missing here?
When you make the extra attack as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, it doesn't matter if you still can take one or not since it's not made as a Bonus Action anymore.
Nick removes the need for the bonus action.
To use an analogy:
If you have $10 (a bonus action) you can have a burger. (an extra attack)
You have a coupon (Nick) that says you can have the burger for free.
Therefore, you can have a burger even though you're broke.
Returning to game rules, making an attack with a light property weapon gives you an ability you can activate later -- the bonus action attack.
The Nick property modifies that ability. It doesn't refund your bonus action or anything -- it changes the timing of the ability so that you don't need it.
I believe in that case the coupon should say "if you use the $10 you can have the burger for free".
Thats the only part of ruling that comfuses me thats why i am asking opinions here.
The Light property doesn't require you to have a Bonus Action available to trigger it -- it just gives you another thing you can use your Bonus Action on later in that turn
Think of it like this: a Rogue with Cunning Action can Dash as a Bonus Action, but that doesn't stop them from Dashing normally if they've already used their BA. This works the same way. Light gives you an attack you can make as a Bonus Action, and Nick gives you another way to make that attack that doesn't use a Bonus Action
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Incorrect, Nick activates when you make your first attack with the Nick weapon. Activating Nick grants you the ability to make that second attack with another Light weapon as part of that initial attack rather than having to use a Bonus Action.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
That sounds more understandable :) thx
These are both incorrect, Nick is always active as long as you are holding a Nick Weapon that you have the associated mastery for, there is no requirement for the Nick Weapon to make the initial attack. In no part of the Nick Mastery does it state it even needs an attack to be active, only that the attack action is taken, this is decidedly different to every other weapon mastery that states that the weapon in question has to be used for the attack.
Obviously the intention with Nick is that it could be used for either the initial attack, or the light weapon property attack, either should be considered valid for the weapon with the Nick Property to shift the Light weapon property extra attack from a bonus action to an extra attack of the attack action.
The exact mechanics of the activation of Nick are not clearly defined in the rules. One cannot make definite statements about whether the Nick weapon must be used in the initial attack, the extra attack, or something else. It's a table ruling until we get errata or at least an official ruling.
It's also irrelevant to the question on hand. No matter how one activates Nick, one can do so even without a Bonus Action available.
The mechanics of Nick are definitely odd, I'd still say it's intended to be one of the attacks, it seems odd to be able to benefit from a weapon that is not at all used. But else wise we are in agreement.
I believe the Nick weapon would need to be the first used, otherwise it's characteristics don't apply. Using the first weapon (with Nick) is what allows you to forgoe the bonus action while using the other Light weapon in the other hand.
If you've already used your bonus action, you could take the attack action with a light weapon having the Nick ability, which would then allow you to attack with the second Light weapon without needing the bonus action.
But if you've already used your bonus action, and try taking the attack action with a light weapon without the nick ability, there is no way to get that second attack in. The nick property wasn't on the weapon used in the attack action, so it doesn't apply.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Can you point to anywhere in the rules where it says this? because I can assure you, it does not say this. People keep asserting that you need to attack with the nick weapon first but the Nick weapon property does not at any point specify that.
Here's another way of looking at it... (Yes I know you can't dual wield weapons that aren't light)
If the weapon in your left hand has the Topple trait (holding a quarterstaff let's say), and the weapon in your right hand does not (let's say it's a shortsword). You can't topple someone on the hit from the shortsword in your right hand, you can only use the properties that are on that weapon (not the other one).
Going back to my example: Bonus action already used, Light weapon in the primary hand; Light Nicking weapon in the off-hand; the nicking property never comes into play because that weapon wasn't used.
And I could use that same argument back... show me a rule that says you can use the property of the weapon you haven't swung?
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
As I said above, there is no rule to say. They forgot to put it in, probably due to the designers overlooking the thing that they all knew wasn't ever actually stated in the text. This is an easy mistake to make, especially if you're rewriting things at the end of a long process, and the general principle was in the text at some point.
It's fine to have your own personal interpretation, but the rules do not support it over other reasonable interpretations. I personally think R3sistance's interpretation is sketchy, buy there's nothing I can point to to conclusively say it's wrong. I don't agree with your interpretation, but again, it's not wrong. (Nor is it right.)