I can believe someone with a tactical or creative mind can get a lot out of the base human... But it is so much easier to maximize your build with a variant human and just pump your primary stats and take a feat.
Unless I rolled all odd numbers of at least 13, including at least three 17s, I'd probably never take standard human over V human. Even if it allowed me to get, say, a +2 in a skill I really want since V. human would allow me to take proficiency in that skill which better.
yeah... even the classes that do try for multiple ability scores for multiclassing, maybe skills, and being MAD tend to lean the feat route to help them acquire strong/needed feats
Really?!? That +1 across the board may be boring, but it’s nothing to sneeze at.
Think about it in these terms...
A feat essentially amounts to the equivalent of +2 ASI, because you can essentially choose that or a feat. So a Human Variant gets the numeric equivalent to +4 ASI (1 feat plus 2 ASI).
The regular Human gets +6 ASI. That's more, right?
The problem is where you put those bonuses matters, a lot. Ask any experienced player if they'd be willing to shave a point off of two of their least valuable stats by one point for a feat. ALL DAY ANY DAY.
Being an experienced player, I can’t say that’s true.
Cool. So as an experienced player, if you were playing a Wizard you would rather have +1 to strength and charisma than have War Caster. Or as a Fighter you would rather have +1 to intelligence and charisma than PAM, or Sentinel, or Sharpshooter, etc. Cool.
Keep in mind it’s either a +1 to two things and a feat, or a +1 to 6 things. Depending on the campaign, and depending what Ability Scores I rolled, and the character I’m playing, maybe yeah. 🤷♂️ It all depends on the situation. If I’m playing a Fighter who is also supposed to be Intelligent, Wise, and Charismatic and I rolled a lot of odd numbers, why wouldn’t I take an across the board +1?!? I’d be a fool not to, wouldn’t I?
I'm getting my character ready for an Icewindale campaign. He is gonna be a ranger (using a long bow) and I'm thinking should I go vanilla or variant human.
Here are the stats (minus human points)
ATK 12 Dex 17 Con 15 Into 10 Wis 15 Cha 10
So I was thinking of getting a feat with 1 ASI like skill expert or something. Int and Cha I don't see using that often (he is a local to ten town's but lived more on the land in a homestead before the adventure) I def want my Dex and wisdom to get as high as I can.
What do you guys reckon?
I would pick:
Variant Human
Bonus Feat: I would chose _ Mage Initiate [Wizard spell list]
Mage initiate 2 Cantrips: Firebolt or "Shocking Grasp works with Familiars", the other cantrip is your choice.
When you reach level 3, you can start Enchanting / Infusing your Arrows with the Cantrip's Magic. Dealing Extra Damage and the Damage will increase as the Character Grows in level ( Firebolt at character level 17 is 4D10 on top of your arrow). The cost of enchanting your arrows is consumable magic and it should be on par with Cantrip Spell Scrolls 15GP per arrow - XGE pg. 133 Section of Downtime Activities. Which the cost stays the same from level 3 to 20
Mage initiate 1 level on spell: Find Familiar (Never Ending Partner) Very useful.
You can cast your touch spells through your familiar like, cure wounds up to a 100ft or use Shocking Grasp to touch an enemy (touching is not attacking)
If your an alchemist, your familiar can carry your alchemist flask and drop them on-top of an enemy: Owl has a STR score of 3 carrying capacity x's 15 = 45lbs, it could simply pick up dead weight of a small bolder and drop it. As long you don't exceed that limit, the owl flight speed is not affected.
You can become one with your Familiar Sense as a Action within a 100ft. Bat with echolocation 60ft can see in the Dark, See in Magical Darkness, see in heavy obscure Fog Cloud all able see with high frequency sound.
Give simple commands to help search, survey, scout, track and report back, all beyond the 100ft limit.
I would suggest 4 Levels in monk since the Rangers high levels features are not good at all. With monk, you can max out your Dex 5 / Wis 5 (+ increase your Ranger Magic) and a natural AC of 20 (get bracers of defense for AC of 22), Bonus action to use 1 unarmed strike or KI points to use KI abilities, +10 to speed, slow fall and one ASI in 4th level of monk.....all good for Ranger.
Really?!? That +1 across the board may be boring, but it’s nothing to sneeze at.
Think about it in these terms...
A feat essentially amounts to the equivalent of +2 ASI, because you can essentially choose that or a feat. So a Human Variant gets the numeric equivalent to +4 ASI (1 feat plus 2 ASI).
The regular Human gets +6 ASI. That's more, right?
The problem is where you put those bonuses matters, a lot. Ask any experienced player if they'd be willing to shave a point off of two of their least valuable stats by one point for a feat. ALL DAY ANY DAY.
I will say that the one thing the +6 human does well is unorthodox multiclasses. I wanted to make a Paladin/Ranger so that A) I could have a fully-armored knight with a dragon and B) I could smite as a Ranger. I only needed 2 levels of Paladin, but this MC requires a 13 in STR, DEX, WIS, and CHA - and I wasn't really prepared to dump CON either. In this case the +1's across the board were the best move. I have never used this option otherwise, but it was helpful for that character.
Really?!? That +1 across the board may be boring, but it’s nothing to sneeze at.
Think about it in these terms...
A feat essentially amounts to the equivalent of +2 ASI, because you can essentially choose that or a feat. So a Human Variant gets the numeric equivalent to +4 ASI (1 feat plus 2 ASI).
The regular Human gets +6 ASI. That's more, right?
The problem is where you put those bonuses matters, a lot. Ask any experienced player if they'd be willing to shave a point off of two of their least valuable stats by one point for a feat. ALL DAY ANY DAY.
I will say that the one thing the +6 human does well is unorthodox multiclasses. I wanted to make a Paladin/Ranger so that A) I could have a fully-armored knight with a dragon and B) I could smite as a Ranger. I only needed 2 levels of Paladin, but this MC requires a 13 in STR, DEX, WIS, and CHA - and I wasn't really prepared to dump CON either. In this case the +1's across the board were the best move. I have never used this option otherwise, but it was helpful for that character.
even then..... If you were to make a build multiclassing that much.... I'm pretty sure having access to any feat over a +1 to 4 of your least important ability scores is better....
Solid choice! I always hesitate to take the Resilient because it's' not like... "exciting", but it really makes a difference.
Yeah, my own Druid really needs to get resilient con next ASI, and it's a bit depressing because it's boring, but the party is going to appreciate the concentration saves, and I'm the party's off-tank so /shrug
I looked long and hard at War Wizard because it's stylin', but that +1 is just too much to pass up.
I would go V. human and go with crossbow expert and then sharpshooter at level 4.
I know you say you want a longbow but I would actually try to get you to go to the darkside and go with the handcrossbow as you will be doing more damage and you get the ability to get in close with a ranged weapon meaning you never have to switch to a melee weapon.
Ranger (with tashas features) gets expertise already so skill expert is not a bad choice but you will already have one so its not a deal breaker.
With the sharpshooter feat you can shoot out to 120 ft with a handcrossbow and if you really need range you can carry a longbow (or heavy crossbow).
Sharpshooter will generally always be better damage vs. regular attacks until about AC 18....if you face something with that high AC try to get ADV on it if you can then you can safely use sharpshooter again.
Really?!? That +1 across the board may be boring, but it’s nothing to sneeze at.
Think about it in these terms...
A feat essentially amounts to the equivalent of +2 ASI, because you can essentially choose that or a feat. So a Human Variant gets the numeric equivalent to +4 ASI (1 feat plus 2 ASI).
The regular Human gets +6 ASI. That's more, right?
The problem is where you put those bonuses matters, a lot. Ask any experienced player if they'd be willing to shave a point off of two of their least valuable stats by one point for a feat. ALL DAY ANY DAY.
I will say that the one thing the +6 human does well is unorthodox multiclasses. I wanted to make a Paladin/Ranger so that A) I could have a fully-armored knight with a dragon and B) I could smite as a Ranger. I only needed 2 levels of Paladin, but this MC requires a 13 in STR, DEX, WIS, and CHA - and I wasn't really prepared to dump CON either. In this case the +1's across the board were the best move. I have never used this option otherwise, but it was helpful for that character.
even then..... If you were to make a build multiclassing that much.... I'm pretty sure having access to any feat over a +1 to 4 of your least important ability scores is better....
I reject your premise that they are “least important.” They are as important as you want them to be. If someone wants to play a 1-note PC who’s only good at anything if they stay in their lane then that’s by choice. If someone wants to play a character who is a rounded individual good at many things… like a real person… then there are no “least important” Ability scores. It all depends on what you’re going for. If all you ever spec for is combat then you would have a rough time at my table because combat is far less of a given when I DM, but social/exploration/puzzle solving is an “every session” kinda thing. A Fighter who only focuses on Str/Dex & Con will have little or nothing to contribute ⅔ — ¾ of the time.
Really?!? That +1 across the board may be boring, but it’s nothing to sneeze at.
Think about it in these terms...
A feat essentially amounts to the equivalent of +2 ASI, because you can essentially choose that or a feat. So a Human Variant gets the numeric equivalent to +4 ASI (1 feat plus 2 ASI).
The regular Human gets +6 ASI. That's more, right?
The problem is where you put those bonuses matters, a lot. Ask any experienced player if they'd be willing to shave a point off of two of their least valuable stats by one point for a feat. ALL DAY ANY DAY.
I will say that the one thing the +6 human does well is unorthodox multiclasses. I wanted to make a Paladin/Ranger so that A) I could have a fully-armored knight with a dragon and B) I could smite as a Ranger. I only needed 2 levels of Paladin, but this MC requires a 13 in STR, DEX, WIS, and CHA - and I wasn't really prepared to dump CON either. In this case the +1's across the board were the best move. I have never used this option otherwise, but it was helpful for that character.
even then..... If you were to make a build multiclassing that much.... I'm pretty sure having access to any feat over a +1 to 4 of your least important ability scores is better....
I reject your premise that they are “least important.” They are as important as you want them to be. If someone wants to play a 1-note PC who’s only good at anything if they stay in their lane then that’s by choice. If someone wants to play a character who is a rounded individual good at many things… like a real person… then there are no “least important” Ability scores. It all depends on what you’re going for. If all you ever spec for is combat then you would have a rough time at my table because combat is far less of a given when I DM, but social/exploration/puzzle solving is an “every session” kinda thing. A Fighter who only focuses on Str/Dex & Con will have little or nothing to contribute ⅔ — ¾ of the time.
When you are getting a +1 to all 6 ability scores with vanilla human vs a +1 to 2 ability scores with the variant human, the +1 to the other 4 ability scores on the vanilla human will be going into your least important ability scores since logically one would put the +1 to 2 ability scores from the variant human in their most important ability scores.
The only niche scenario fit for a vanilla human is a multiclass heavy MAD build. Even in that circumstance, sacrificing a +1 to 4 of your worst ability scores is worth it for a feat to help a build like that.
So I did a build comparison for a Paladin using point buy, since Paladin is one of the stat hungry classes. Ideally, you have a high Strength, Constitution, and Charisma.
You are a Feat ahead at the cost of -1 in Dex and Intelligence. Next you can go +2 to Strength or pick Sentintel, or GWM if you want to use a Glaive, etc. I tried to choose something where the regular Human will shine the most. I think the bottom line is there is some merit to choosing the regular human, but from an optimization standpoint the variant human is still the optimal choice.
Of course, Paladin players will often sacrifice some Charisma (14) to bring their Dex up to 12, or their Con up to 16. This example is just to compare build apples to apples.
A side note: Regular human does not allow you to have a dump stat without wasting points. The least you can have in any stat is 9.
Really?!? That +1 across the board may be boring, but it’s nothing to sneeze at.
Think about it in these terms...
A feat essentially amounts to the equivalent of +2 ASI, because you can essentially choose that or a feat. So a Human Variant gets the numeric equivalent to +4 ASI (1 feat plus 2 ASI).
The regular Human gets +6 ASI. That's more, right?
The problem is where you put those bonuses matters, a lot. Ask any experienced player if they'd be willing to shave a point off of two of their least valuable stats by one point for a feat. ALL DAY ANY DAY.
I will say that the one thing the +6 human does well is unorthodox multiclasses. I wanted to make a Paladin/Ranger so that A) I could have a fully-armored knight with a dragon and B) I could smite as a Ranger. I only needed 2 levels of Paladin, but this MC requires a 13 in STR, DEX, WIS, and CHA - and I wasn't really prepared to dump CON either. In this case the +1's across the board were the best move. I have never used this option otherwise, but it was helpful for that character.
even then..... If you were to make a build multiclassing that much.... I'm pretty sure having access to any feat over a +1 to 4 of your least important ability scores is better....
I reject your premise that they are “least important.” They are as important as you want them to be. If someone wants to play a 1-note PC who’s only good at anything if they stay in their lane then that’s by choice. If someone wants to play a character who is a rounded individual good at many things… like a real person… then there are no “least important” Ability scores. It all depends on what you’re going for. If all you ever spec for is combat then you would have a rough time at my table because combat is far less of a given when I DM, but social/exploration/puzzle solving is an “every session” kinda thing. A Fighter who only focuses on Str/Dex & Con will have little or nothing to contribute ⅔ — ¾ of the time.
When you are getting a +1 to all 6 ability scores with vanilla human vs a +1 to 2 ability scores with the variant human, the +1 to the other 4 ability scores on the vanilla human will be going into your least important ability scores since logically one would put the +1 to 2 ability scores from the variant human in their most important ability scores.
The only niche scenario fit for a vanilla human is a multiclass heavy MAD build. Even in that circumstance, sacrificing a +1 to 4 of your worst ability scores is worth it for a feat to help a build like that.
Again, I reject your premise that there are any “least important” ability scores whatsoever. They are all only as important as you make them.
Again, I reject your premise that there are any “least important” ability scores whatsoever. They are all only as important as you make them.
So in your view, the importance of Intelligence to a Wizard verses a Barbarian just comes down to play style?
It can, yes. Again, in any campaign I DM, there is a rounded emphasis on Checks using all 6 Ability scores. If you dump anything in campaigns I DM, sooner or later you’re going to be at a disadvantage. Not only do I ensure all of the mental stats get used almost every session, I do the same for physical Ability Checks. Jump distances matter in games I DM, as do Constitution (Athletics) checks for endurance, as well as other combinations like Intelligence (Anything) checks come up regularly. When every Ability score is important to some extent or another at least 1 session out of every 3-4, and when combat only happens about 1 Session out of every 3-4…. What’s “least important” then?
Vhman probably
I can believe someone with a tactical or creative mind can get a lot out of the base human... But it is so much easier to maximize your build with a variant human and just pump your primary stats and take a feat.
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Unless I rolled all odd numbers of at least 13, including at least three 17s, I'd probably never take standard human over V human. Even if it allowed me to get, say, a +2 in a skill I really want since V. human would allow me to take proficiency in that skill which better.
yeah... even the classes that do try for multiple ability scores for multiclassing, maybe skills, and being MAD tend to lean the feat route to help them acquire strong/needed feats
Keep in mind it’s either a +1 to two things and a feat, or a +1 to 6 things. Depending on the campaign, and depending what Ability Scores I rolled, and the character I’m playing, maybe yeah. 🤷♂️ It all depends on the situation. If I’m playing a Fighter who is also supposed to be Intelligent, Wise, and Charismatic and I rolled a lot of odd numbers, why wouldn’t I take an across the board +1?!? I’d be a fool not to, wouldn’t I?
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Ok so decided to go with the resilient con feat. Make my character a tough b***ard who shrugs off the cold.
Solid choice! I always hesitate to take the Resilient because it's' not like... "exciting", but it really makes a difference.
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I would pick:
I would suggest 4 Levels in monk since the Rangers high levels features are not good at all. With monk, you can max out your Dex 5 / Wis 5 (+ increase your Ranger Magic) and a natural AC of 20 (get bracers of defense for AC of 22), Bonus action to use 1 unarmed strike or KI points to use KI abilities, +10 to speed, slow fall and one ASI in 4th level of monk.....all good for Ranger.
I will say that the one thing the +6 human does well is unorthodox multiclasses. I wanted to make a Paladin/Ranger so that A) I could have a fully-armored knight with a dragon and B) I could smite as a Ranger. I only needed 2 levels of Paladin, but this MC requires a 13 in STR, DEX, WIS, and CHA - and I wasn't really prepared to dump CON either. In this case the +1's across the board were the best move. I have never used this option otherwise, but it was helpful for that character.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
even then..... If you were to make a build multiclassing that much.... I'm pretty sure having access to any feat over a +1 to 4 of your least important ability scores is better....
Yeah, my own Druid really needs to get resilient con next ASI, and it's a bit depressing because it's boring, but the party is going to appreciate the concentration saves, and I'm the party's off-tank so /shrug
I looked long and hard at War Wizard because it's stylin', but that +1 is just too much to pass up.
I would go V. human and go with crossbow expert and then sharpshooter at level 4.
I know you say you want a longbow but I would actually try to get you to go to the darkside and go with the handcrossbow as you will be doing more damage and you get the ability to get in close with a ranged weapon meaning you never have to switch to a melee weapon.
Ranger (with tashas features) gets expertise already so skill expert is not a bad choice but you will already have one so its not a deal breaker.
With the sharpshooter feat you can shoot out to 120 ft with a handcrossbow and if you really need range you can carry a longbow (or heavy crossbow).
Sharpshooter will generally always be better damage vs. regular attacks until about AC 18....if you face something with that high AC try to get ADV on it if you can then you can safely use sharpshooter again.
I reject your premise that they are “least important.” They are as important as you want them to be. If someone wants to play a 1-note PC who’s only good at anything if they stay in their lane then that’s by choice. If someone wants to play a character who is a rounded individual good at many things… like a real person… then there are no “least important” Ability scores. It all depends on what you’re going for. If all you ever spec for is combat then you would have a rough time at my table because combat is far less of a given when I DM, but social/exploration/puzzle solving is an “every session” kinda thing. A Fighter who only focuses on Str/Dex & Con will have little or nothing to contribute ⅔ — ¾ of the time.
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When you are getting a +1 to all 6 ability scores with vanilla human vs a +1 to 2 ability scores with the variant human, the +1 to the other 4 ability scores on the vanilla human will be going into your least important ability scores since logically one would put the +1 to 2 ability scores from the variant human in their most important ability scores.
The only niche scenario fit for a vanilla human is a multiclass heavy MAD build. Even in that circumstance, sacrificing a +1 to 4 of your worst ability scores is worth it for a feat to help a build like that.
So I did a build comparison for a Paladin using point buy, since Paladin is one of the stat hungry classes. Ideally, you have a high Strength, Constitution, and Charisma.
Straight Human: STR: 16 DEX: 10 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 11 CHA: 16
Point buy can be stingy. These are pretty good stats.
Variant Human: STR: 16 DEX: 8 CON: 14 INT: 8 WIS: 10 CHA: 16 + Polearm Master
You are a Feat ahead at the cost of -1 in Dex and Intelligence. Next you can go +2 to Strength or pick Sentintel, or GWM if you want to use a Glaive, etc. I tried to choose something where the regular Human will shine the most. I think the bottom line is there is some merit to choosing the regular human, but from an optimization standpoint the variant human is still the optimal choice.
Of course, Paladin players will often sacrifice some Charisma (14) to bring their Dex up to 12, or their Con up to 16. This example is just to compare build apples to apples.
A side note: Regular human does not allow you to have a dump stat without wasting points. The least you can have in any stat is 9.
Again, I reject your premise that there are any “least important” ability scores whatsoever. They are all only as important as you make them.
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Variant. Get proficiency in some skill and get the Alert feat.
pm me the word "tomato"
she/her
So in your view, the importance of Intelligence to a Wizard verses a Barbarian just comes down to play style?
It can, yes. Again, in any campaign I DM, there is a rounded emphasis on Checks using all 6 Ability scores. If you dump anything in campaigns I DM, sooner or later you’re going to be at a disadvantage. Not only do I ensure all of the mental stats get used almost every session, I do the same for physical Ability Checks. Jump distances matter in games I DM, as do Constitution (Athletics) checks for endurance, as well as other combinations like Intelligence (Anything) checks come up regularly. When every Ability score is important to some extent or another at least 1 session out of every 3-4, and when combat only happens about 1 Session out of every 3-4…. What’s “least important” then?
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In the one campaign I am currently DMing, the Barbarian is as much or more the party face than the Warlock is. He’s also their best Historian.
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